SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2024 11:12:11 GMT -5
Ultimately, I don’t care about this debate, though. I’ve been disappointed by the three (so far) outgoing transfers among the five guys we had penciled in as returners. Not so much from a pure talent perspective, because (assuming we get a commitment from a big soon) we’ve upgraded at all of their positions. But I would have liked some retention/stability for stability’s sake. I know that guys who were starters aren’t going to be keen on moving to bench roles once recruited over, but it’s kind of annoying to think we might end up having to backfill the with new transfers to have enough players to field a whole team. This is my overall posture. Love getting better (at least on paper) but dying for some consistency, so we don’t have a whole team starting from scratch each year. I’m looking forward to seeing improvements from Epps and Fielder to next year, from having a full 7-month offseason to work with the coaching and S&C staff. Fielder looks like he’s already added about 5 lbs of muscle just since the season, and I’m sure the strength and agility improvements from a full strength and conditioning offseason will pay off. (Especially since, if he’s not limited like he was physically last summer with the knees, he’ll be able to do much more skill work at the same time). We will hopefully get consistency when we have players we don't feel we need to upgrade. But understand that even with a NIL budget larger than most (for now), there's going to be guys that leave for money or PT. And with no restrictions on sitting out, it's going to be more frequent, period. All we can do is try to create a good culture, develop players, recruit kids who perhaps understand the process and try to allocate funds as best you can. But I'm not going to be worried about transfers that seem money or PT related. What do you do? Honestly, if we had kept Styles (or even kept Brumbaugh and lost Styles), I wouldn't mind the sequence here in the offseason at all. But we were 2-19. We needed to try and upgrade. Paying all the guys who went 2-19 to stay or not recruiting better players is a terrible strategy.
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Apr 25, 2024 11:47:15 GMT -5
Mckenna is part of the 2023 class, he was enrolled in schooL Why would someone be classified as a recruit the year after they joined? silly to argue either way, there are three players that stayed; Mckenna, Epps, and FieldeR It's irrelevant what class he's in. The relevant part here is that he could have transferred and did not. I truly enjoy posters who complained all year about players that were recruited then getting very mad they are transferring. Yes, that cannot be argued.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 25, 2024 12:18:05 GMT -5
This is my overall posture. Love getting better (at least on paper) but dying for some consistency, so we don’t have a whole team starting from scratch each year. I’m looking forward to seeing improvements from Epps and Fielder to next year, from having a full 7-month offseason to work with the coaching and S&C staff. Fielder looks like he’s already added about 5 lbs of muscle just since the season, and I’m sure the strength and agility improvements from a full strength and conditioning offseason will pay off. (Especially since, if he’s not limited like he was physically last summer with the knees, he’ll be able to do much more skill work at the same time). We will hopefully get consistency when we have players we don't feel we need to upgrade. But understand that even with a NIL budget larger than most (for now), there's going to be guys that leave for money or PT. And with no restrictions on sitting out, it's going to be more frequent, period. All we can do is try to create a good culture, develop players, recruit kids who perhaps understand the process and try to allocate funds as best you can. But I'm not going to be worried about transfers that seem money or PT related. What do you do? Honestly, if we had kept Styles (or even kept Brumbaugh and lost Styles), I wouldn't mind the sequence here in the offseason at all. But we were 2-19. We needed to try and upgrade. Paying all the guys who went 2-19 to stay or not recruiting better players is a terrible strategy. No one on a 2-19 team is indispensable.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by drquigley on Apr 25, 2024 14:24:06 GMT -5
We will hopefully get consistency when we have players we don't feel we need to upgrade. But understand that even with a NIL budget larger than most (for now), there's going to be guys that leave for money or PT. And with no restrictions on sitting out, it's going to be more frequent, period. All we can do is try to create a good culture, develop players, recruit kids who perhaps understand the process and try to allocate funds as best you can. But I'm not going to be worried about transfers that seem money or PT related. What do you do? Honestly, if we had kept Styles (or even kept Brumbaugh and lost Styles), I wouldn't mind the sequence here in the offseason at all. But we were 2-19. We needed to try and upgrade. Paying all the guys who went 2-19 to stay or not recruiting better players is a terrible strategy. No one on a 2-19 team is indispensable. I agree but while I don't think Rowan was indispensable I do think he would have been a nice piece to have on an improving team. The kid just showed some real "meanery" and I could see in 1-2 years how he could have played some important minutes on a tournament team. Look, we're never going to have a team of all "All Americans" but we should have a much better team than we had last year and I can see how a kid like Rowan could have been a productive part of that teams growth.
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1789
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by 1789 on Apr 25, 2024 14:37:54 GMT -5
Color me optimistic, but I am holding out for Brumbaugh to announce that he is staying. As far as I know he is not committed elsewhere, there is $ anvailable and the roster still has minutes for his short, medium and long term. Re-recruit him Coach! The fans have spoken and of all the departures, he’s the one we want to keep most. I am hearing virtually no chance Brumbaugh stays. I m also hearing that its not his choice.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2024 14:49:12 GMT -5
No one on a 2-19 team is indispensable. I agree but while I don't think Rowan was indispensable I do think he would have been a nice piece to have on an improving team. The kid just showed some real "meanery" and I could see in 1-2 years how he could have played some important minutes on a tournament team. Look, we're never going to have a team of all "All Americans" but we should have a much better team than we had last year and I can see how a kid like Rowan could have been a productive part of that teams growth. Right, but you don't turn down Malik Mack to keep Rowan. I'm there with you guys; I like seeing players grow and I don't want to see mass turnover in favor of small talent upgrades -- either practically or aesthetically. But we're at a place right now where we need to get good fast. And in the future, you're going to have to have players who aren't jumping at immediate PT or money improvements most likely. Because you can't afford to pay the #3 ballhandler on your roster all that much.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 25, 2024 15:00:41 GMT -5
I m also hearing that its not his choice. Of course it is his choice. He is a duly enrolled student and Ed Cooley can't kick him out of school. Too many athletes lose sight of the fact that once they are in, they can finish their college education without any obligation from a coach. And like (almost) all his teammates, he's not playing in the NBA. The long term educational and networking opportunities of Georgetown far outweigh an annual trip to the transfer portal.
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Apr 25, 2024 15:11:25 GMT -5
I m also hearing that its not his choice. Of course it is his choice. He is a duly enrolled student and Ed Cooley can't kick him out of school. Too many athletes lose sight of the fact that once they are in, they can finish their college education without any obligation from a coach. And like (almost) all his teammates, he's not playing in the NBA. The long term educational and networking opportunities of Georgetown far outweigh an annual trip to the transfer portal. But, he cant play basketball and thats obviously what he wants to do.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 15:45:37 GMT -5
Of course it is his choice. He is a duly enrolled student and Ed Cooley can't kick him out of school. Too many athletes lose sight of the fact that once they are in, they can finish their college education without any obligation from a coach. And like (almost) all his teammates, he's not playing in the NBA. The long term educational and networking opportunities of Georgetown far outweigh an annual trip to the transfer portal. But, he cant play basketball and thats obviously what he wants to do. That doesn't mean he has no choice to stay. It just means he has a choice he dislikes more than the other options he figures will be on the table. But he's got a choice. There is no right to play basketball. I also don't buy that it's "not his choice" for an additional reason. Putting aside chemistry/personality issues that we have little insight into, why wouldn't want Cooley want somebody like Brumbaugh on the bench? Heck, if this was 2015, and Cooley landed someone like Mack, that's in all likelihood what would have happened. I'd certainly love to have Brumbaugh backing up Mack. But the reality is that in 2024, guys who have skills can get NIL money and more playing time by moving, and that's what most of these kids want. And in Styles' case, unofficial reports seem to indicate Styles' choice was based on NC State offering more money. I am pretty confident Styles would have gotten the playing time he wanted at Georgetown. Did Brumbaugh have the choice to stay at whatever amount of NIL Cooley was comfortable with offering, and with playing time limited by the addition of Malik Mack? Likely. I just think in 2024, guys like Brumbaugh do not view that as a viable option, even though it very much is an option if you don't put all your priorities on playing 30+ minutes and getting a ton of NIL. Now, if somebody actually has inside information and tells me that Georgetown offered him 0 NIL or something like that, we might have a different discussion. But, otherwise, I don't buy it.
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Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Apr 25, 2024 15:51:14 GMT -5
I am hearing virtually no chance Brumbaugh stays. I m also hearing that its not his choice. That sucks. If you want to leave for more money or playing time that's one thing, but I hate the idea of chasing someone off. It might be an old fashion concept in a a NIL world, but if a program commits to a kid there should be a spot for them. If performance declines then you aren't obligated to keep the NIL the same, but there should be a spot for those that want to be Hoyas and we brought to the team. In this new world there are no Tyler Crawfords, Tyler Adams, or Henry Sims. I want to be competitive but what's the point of cheering for a one year rental with no ties to the school? I've been a long term supporter of our program, but I don't know if I can cheer with the same enthusiasm because someone took a jersey out of the laundry and handed it to a kid for 9 months.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 15:54:43 GMT -5
I m also hearing that its not his choice. That sucks. If you want to leave for more money or playing time that's one thing, but I hate the idea of chasing someone off. It might be an old fashion concept in a a NIL world, but if a program commits to a kid there should be a spot for them. If performance declines then you aren't obligated to keep the NIL the same, but there should be a spot for those that want to be Hoyas and we brought to the team. In this new world there are no Tyler Crawfords, Tyler Adams, or Henry Sims. I want to be competitive but what's the point of cheering for a one year rental with no ties to the school? I've been a long term supporter of our program, but I don't know if I can cheer with the same enthusiasm because someone took a jersey out of the laundry and handed it to a kid for 9 months. See my post above. I don't buy this. PS. Lots of posters "hear things." One of the few people who I trust to actually have some inside insights, blueandgray, posted this a while ago, "I believe Rowan saw the writing on the wall….and yes, we did lallow him to walk." This makes me think that while the program would have loved to have him, we let him go because of recruiting Mack/not meeting NIL demands. But I could be wrong.
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bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by bostonfan on Apr 25, 2024 15:57:23 GMT -5
But, he cant play basketball and thats obviously what he wants to do. That doesn't mean he has no choice to stay. It just means he has a choice he dislikes more than the other options he figures will be on the table. But he's got a choice. There is no right to play basketball. I also don't buy that it's "not his choice" for an additional reason. Putting aside chemistry/personality issues that we have little insight into, why wouldn't want Cooley want somebody like Brumbaugh on the bench? Heck, if this was 2015, and Cooley landed someone like Mack, that's in all likelihood what would have happened. I'd certainly love to have Brumbaugh backing up Mack. But the reality is that in 2024, guys who have skills can get NIL money and more playing time by moving, and that's what most of these kids want. And in Styles case, unofficial reports seem to indicate Styles' choice was based on NC State offering more money. I am pretty confident Styles would have gotten the playing time he wanted at Georgetown. Did Brumbaugh have the choice to stay at whatever amount of NIL Cooley was comfortable with offering, and with playing time limited by the addition of Malik Mack? Likely. I just think in 2024, guys like Brumbaugh do not view that as a viable option, even though it very much is an option if you don't put all your priorities on playing 30+ minutes and getting a ton of NIL. Now, if somebody actually has inside information and tells me that Georgetown offered him 0 NIL or something like that, we might have a different discussion. But, otherwise, I don't buy it. I highly doubt that Cooley told him he could not be on the team at all, my guess is that he told Rowan that his minutes were likely to decrease if they were able to recruit some other guards from the portal. I am sure Rowan, like most highly competitive athletes, wanted a chance to play and contribute to the team. When he realized that he was likely to a back up point guard and see limited minutes, he decided he would transfer. I liked Rowan and thought he could develop into a good college player, but he was not ready last year, and I don't think he would be ready this year, to be a starting point guard on a competitive Big East team. Both the coach and Rowan made decisions that were best for them and I am Ok with that. I wish players did not transfer as often as they do now, but it is part of the college basketball game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2024 15:57:30 GMT -5
I've never been comfortable with pulling a scholarship, pre-NIL / transfer madness, and I don't think I am now.
That said, I am very pro- being honest with a player about the role next year. People can call it pushing someone out, but the coach decides those things, and it's better to understand where you really stand than not.
And in terms of NIL; I'm absolutely fine pulling NIL. Every one of these players is okay asking for more or transferring for more. Players wanted to be employees; welcome to the real world. If you want certainty, then the school should get it, too; sign a multi-year NIL deal that can consequences if you break it. If you want to be free as a bird, well then understand your pay can change based on performance.
Like it or not, these players are no longer student-athletes. Or rather, just student-athletes. They are fairly highly paid employees, mechanics aside, and with that benefit comes downsides.
In regards to Rowan, I doubt we ever find out which one it was, but playing time expectations alone might have been enough.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on Apr 25, 2024 16:00:24 GMT -5
I've never been comfortable with pulling a scholarship, pre-NIL / transfer madness, and I don't think I am now. It's not a thing anymore. NCAA rules guarantee your scholarship until you graduate if you transfer into a school.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:06:57 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling.
People complain about guys from our 2-19 roster leaving because they were supposed to be part of some "core" that led one of the worst Georgetown teams ever, yet at the same time high level guys like Richmond and Alexander--neither of whom has to worry about playing time--leave anyway.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 25, 2024 16:28:24 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling. Every coach in the BE has coached at multiple stops but it's the players who don't have any loyalty?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:29:23 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling. Every coach in the BE has coached at multiple stops but it's the players who don't have any loyalty? Name a Big East coach that has coached at 3 separate schools in 5 years.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 25, 2024 16:42:34 GMT -5
Every coach in the BE has coached at multiple stops but it's the players who don't have any loyalty? Name a Big East coach that has coached at 3 separate schools in 5 years. Is five years your only standard for loyalty 2003? In all seriousness, this issue of loyalty extends to the coaching staff(s) as well. Remember Malcom & Tim?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:54:17 GMT -5
Name a Big East coach that has coached at 3 separate schools in 5 years. Is five years your only standard for loyalty 2003? In all seriousness, this issue of loyalty extends to the coaching staff(s) as well. Remember Malcom & Tim? My comment was that players no longer have loyalty. This discussion was about players, not coaches. The two situations aren't analagous. Currently, players literally have nothing tying them to a university. They can leave on a whim. Coaches do not have that luxury. They sign contracts (and yes, many paid handsomely). When they underperform, they are fired. And yes, when they do really well at lower-level programs, they often move to better programs. Just as players now transfer to better schools. I do not blame them at all for that. The problem in your reasoning is that you are viewing my statement that players have no loyalty to universities as a pejorative or negative. I don't blame players or coaches for seeking out better opportunties or more money if they can get it. All the more power to them, they are operating within the system they have. That said, for the most part, most of the Big East coaches have been at jobs for a long time. And some of them ended their tenures because they were either fired or run off because of dissatisfacton (like Shaka Smart). Rick Pitino was at Louisville for 16 seasons before getting fired. Sure, he was only at Iona for three seasons, but everybody knew going in he was using it as a stepping stone, including Iona. Ed Cooley was at Providence for 12 years before leaving despite other offers to go elsewhere. Greg McDermott has been at Creighton for 14 seasons. Even Hurley has now been at Connecticut for 6 years, and Rhode Island before that for 6 years. And Shaka Smart stayed at both VCU and Texas for 6 seasons. Sean Miller was at Arizona 12 years before being dismissed. And on the bookends he was at Xavier 5 years, and now two more. Matta was at Ohio State for thirteen years before being forced out. If you want to compare the two, go ahead. But it's not proving the point you think it's proving. And there are few examples of coaches jumping from school to school like these guys in the portal are for one big reason--they are bound by contracts, and any coach who jumped around that much would be seen as unsteady. (As far as Ighoefe, I said at the time I thought it was bad form. On Wilson, Ewing basically ran him off into a "manager" until a scholarship opened up. I thought that was horrible and said so at the time. Then he graduated. We have no idea if Cooley wanted to retain him, but he had graduated and was a 4 year player. I certainly consider him loyal, and had he wanted to stay for this year, I would have welcomed him. We certainly had enough roster spots.)
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Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Apr 25, 2024 17:23:12 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling. People complain about guys from our 2-19 roster leaving because they were supposed to be part of some "core" that led one of the worst Georgetown teams ever, yet at the same time high level guys like Richmond and Alexander--neither of whom has to worry about playing time--leave anyway. I think the problem is going to be when we have a good team and 3/4 transfer anyway because of the structural incentives. Pay the players but the current system sucks.
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