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Post by professorhoya on Apr 24, 2024 8:29:51 GMT -5
Karaban also redshirted his first year. So on top of having the luxury of having Sanogo/Clingan erasing mistakes Karaban started playing in year 2 whereas Fielder was thrown in the fire (thanks Benedict Akok) with no rim protector what so ever.
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78HOYA78
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Post by 78HOYA78 on Apr 24, 2024 8:35:35 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 24, 2024 8:42:19 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East. We can and will but supply has been low and demand has been high. It has been a seller's market.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 24, 2024 8:57:52 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East. I didn't follow Providence under Cooley, but did Cooley ever have a starting 7' C there?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 24, 2024 9:08:36 GMT -5
Before I dive into more fun debate with other people's arguments, I want to go down a couple of more statistics. Turnovers are a key indicator for one's oncourt effectiveness and efficiency. A player can put up commendable numbers that garner all the attention such as points, rebounds, assists, etc, but often enough we don't know the whole complete story until we see what their turnover stats are. I have seen my share of Hoya bigs over the decades who have come up short in the wrong way in this category despite their quality production in other areas. So color me impressed when I went back to sports reference and saw that Fielder committed a grand total of 13 turnovers for the entire year. Thirteen over the course of 467 minutes played. I was floored by those numbers. A freshmen big who turns over the ball that little despite having the ball in his hands in territory stretching from inside the paint to beyond the three-point line is not that common. Tt suggests he can take care of the ball and not waste possessions by travelling, making bad passes or succumbing to unforced errors. That means when he is taking dribble drives to the basket, which was probably his second most frequent type of attack when he was looking to score, he did so without dribbling the ball off his feet. Look how his turnovers compared to other teammates, in particular the other "bigs". I hate to beat a dead horse but Ish Massoud accumulated twice as many turnovers in 589 minutes. Supreme Cook had 47 in 866 minutes. It should come as no surprise that guards and wings accumulated more turnovers because the ball is in their hands more. So lets look at assists and assists-to-turnovers ratios. Drew had 23 assists to 13 turnovers. That is almost a 2 to 1 ratio for a freshman big which is remarkable. Ish had 11 less assists (12) than Fielder despite playing over 120 plus more minutes. Cook had a mere 18 assists in 866 minutes. So from an assist to turnover standpoint Cook was 18 to 47; Ish was 12 to 26. Both of them are in the negative. Fielder was 23 to 13. Lets not stop there. Lets look at Styles. In 1073 minutes: 26 assists and 49 turnovers. Epps in 1010 minutes put up 123 assists and 98 turnovers. In 686 minutes Rowan accumulated 82 assists and 62 turnovers. For Jay Heath who played 886 minutes he had a total of 60 assists and 41 turnovers. In 649 minutes Wayne Bristol managed 25 assists and 19 turnovers. It should come as no surprise that guards and wings would amass more assists than turnovers. What is surprising is that Fielder's ratio is better than all of our guards and wings of that season. Even more shocking is another category. Fielder was the second leading Hoya in blocks despite playing the least minutes of the 8 guys who made up the primary rotation. Styles led everyone with 21; Fielder fell one short with 20. Cook in 400 more minutes had a mere 16 blocks. Massoud ended up with 11. One more category. Steals. Fielder had the least in 10 but that was still highly impressive considering the position he played and the limited minutes he got. Epps led the way with 34, followed by Wayne and Rowan with 28 apiece, followed by Cook with 25, followed by Heath with 21, followed by Styles with 18 (even though he led the team with 1073 minutes) and finally Massoud with 14. If you consider the minutes each played, Drew's total of ten is proportionally better than everyone other than Epps and possibly Rowan and Wayne. The numbers were not all good for Fielder. He picked up a disproportionate amount of personal fouls, which largely explains some of the questions regarding his minutes. His rebounding numbers could have been stronger too. Although, even on this front, his final total of 98 minutes was still twenty higher than Massoud's. (I'm sorry, Ish; its not personal). So to sum it up just by the numbers how did Fielder stack up compared to the other seven dudes who logged the big minutes: -second to Cook in 2-point FG% and overall FG% -a close second to Cook in eFG% -the best three-point percentage on the team -the best ORtg on the team -the best DRtg on the team -the best assist to turnover ratio -second on the team in blocks -sneaky good at steals. I understand Fielder's faults and I have not been trying to cover them up. But he was playing on a squad full of players with faults. My argument remains, respectively, that this kid should have gotten more time. And these numbers contradict the various negative narratives from many of Hoya fandom, a couple that have gone as far as implying that he isn't capable of being a starter for this team anytime soon (no, SF, this is not directed at you). If the analytics of Fielder were negative and far worse, his same detractors would use them as the final say. But the numbers counter the viewpoint that they put forth. I was told there would be no math. 😡 Sorry, Chevy. 😀
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 24, 2024 9:25:04 GMT -5
Count me as a fan of Fielder hoping that he wouldn't transfer and that he should've played more last season. That said, I don't see sophomore Fielder as a starting college basketball C for a NCAAT or a top-half-of-the-BE team unless we're so loaded that that's where minutes are available. Same goes for freshman Sorber. I see Fielder as a 4 or even a 3 to create mismatches on offense while defending the frontcourt in an extra-long zone. Btw, I saw all the games and the blow-bys are exaggerated (i.e., the kid is not a stiff) and should've been expected from a freshman thrown into the fire without a low-post stopper.
The bottom line is that next year's team needs a proven, experienced starting big to defend the paint/rim and that's not Fielder or Sorber next year. That player will improve the overall defense of the team by allowing the other four players on the court to be more aggressive, by allowing his back-up to be more aggressive, by allowing the coach to show different defensive looks to confuse the opponent or create mismatches, etc...
Cooley should not put next year's team in a position of having to depend on Fielder and/or Sorber to start at C. He needs to close on a defending C.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 9:26:41 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East. I didn't follow Providence under Cooley, but did Cooley ever have a starting 7' C there? Admittedly, I looked extremely quickly, but the only 7'0 player Providence had during Cooley's tenure was Carson Desrosiers (transfer from Wake Forest after his sophomore year there), who logged minutes in the 2013-2014, and 2014-2015 seasons. He did start almost every game in the 2014-2015 season, and he played almost every game the season before. But that's it. (It's possible I missed a walk on or someone who didn't play much.) Even in absolute numbers, the number of 7'0 tall players is extremely small, and even smaller when you account for guys who actually have good basketball skills. Edit: Coooley did have Paschal Chukwu, too, but he barely played.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 24, 2024 9:28:07 GMT -5
He did have Paschal Chukwu for a season.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 24, 2024 9:36:41 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East. If only we had a large NIL war chest at our disposal that has been touted by many sources including Big East insider John Fanta….
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 24, 2024 9:37:35 GMT -5
I didn't follow Providence under Cooley, but did Cooley ever have a starting 7' C there? Admittedly, I looked extremely quickly, but the only 7'0 player Providence had during Cooley's tenure was Carson Desrosiers (transfer from Wake Forest after his sophomore year there), who logged minutes in the 2013-2014, and 2014-2015 seasons. He did start almost every game in the 2014-2015 season, and he played almost every game the season before. But that's it. (It's possible I missed a walk on or someone who didn't play much.) Even in absolute numbers, the number of 7'0 tall players is extremely small, and even smaller when you account for guys who actually have good basketball skills. Edit: Coooley did have Paschal Chukwu, too, but he barely played. Cooley's bigs have been Sorber like throughout his time @ PC. His best team ever had a frontcourt of Watson, Horchler & Croswell. I'm not sure why some Gtown fans can't allow a coach to be themselves, this want of a rim protector reminds me a lot of the want for "quick guards" when JT3 was the coach.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 24, 2024 9:42:25 GMT -5
I didn't follow Providence under Cooley, but did Cooley ever have a starting 7' C there? Admittedly, I looked extremely quickly, but the only 7'0 player Providence had during Cooley's tenure was Carson Desrosiers (transfer from Wake Forest after his sophomore year there), who logged minutes in the 2013-2014, and 2014-2015 seasons. He did start almost every game in the 2014-2015 season, and he played almost every game the season before. But that's it. (It's possible I missed a walk on or someone who didn't play much.) Even in absolute numbers, the number of 7'0 tall players is extremely small, and even smaller when you account for guys who actually have good basketball skills. Edit: Coooley did have Paschal Chukwu, too, but he barely played. Interesting... I still cannot believe we have/had a 7'2" player who had played some BE minutes and that the coaching staff couldn't/cannot make him a useful player. That player could've been a fouling machine in the paint (i.e., anyone that gets passed you gets fouled) for one of the NCAA's worst defensive teams.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 24, 2024 9:43:51 GMT -5
Admittedly, I looked extremely quickly, but the only 7'0 player Providence had during Cooley's tenure was Carson Desrosiers (transfer from Wake Forest after his sophomore year there), who logged minutes in the 2013-2014, and 2014-2015 seasons. He did start almost every game in the 2014-2015 season, and he played almost every game the season before. But that's it. (It's possible I missed a walk on or someone who didn't play much.) Even in absolute numbers, the number of 7'0 tall players is extremely small, and even smaller when you account for guys who actually have good basketball skills. Edit: Coooley did have Paschal Chukwu, too, but he barely played. Cooley's bigs have been Sorber like throughout his time @ PC. Never that young...
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 24, 2024 9:49:27 GMT -5
I look at Fielder and see a potential Georgetown Laetner. So we’ve had Fielder compared to Laettner and Mack compared to Kenny Anderson in the last week. What’s next? Micah Peavy and Scottie Pippen? Jayden Epps and Damian Lillard? Thomas Sorber and Rasheed Wallace?
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Apr 24, 2024 9:50:38 GMT -5
Admittedly, I looked extremely quickly, but the only 7'0 player Providence had during Cooley's tenure was Carson Desrosiers (transfer from Wake Forest after his sophomore year there), who logged minutes in the 2013-2014, and 2014-2015 seasons. He did start almost every game in the 2014-2015 season, and he played almost every game the season before. But that's it. (It's possible I missed a walk on or someone who didn't play much.) Even in absolute numbers, the number of 7'0 tall players is extremely small, and even smaller when you account for guys who actually have good basketball skills. Edit: Coooley did have Paschal Chukwu, too, but he barely played. Interesting... I still cannot believe we have/had a 7'2" player who had played some BE minutes and that the coaching staff couldn't/cannot make him a useful player. That player could've been a fouling machine in the paint (i.e., anyone that gets passed you gets fouled) for one of the NCAA's worst defensive teams. I agree but we are beating a dead horse. There has to be more to the story than that Ryan just wasn't good enough to be coached into at least becoming a decent rim protector by his junior year but I'm afraid we will never know why that was.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 24, 2024 9:51:28 GMT -5
Cooley's bigs have been Sorber like throughout his time @ PC. Never that young... I'd say Ben Bentil is similar to Sorber, he played a lot his 2 seasons @ PC Watson Played a lot early in his career too, same for Batts
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Post by practice on Apr 24, 2024 9:52:15 GMT -5
I look at Fielder and see a potential Georgetown Laetner. So we’ve had Fielder compared to Laettner and Mack compared to Kenny Anderson in the last week. What’s next? Micah Peavy and Scottie Pippen? Jayden Epps and Damian Lillard? Thomas Sorber and Rasheed Wallace? I can compare you to some characters if you'd like ...
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78HOYA78
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Post by 78HOYA78 on Apr 24, 2024 9:58:40 GMT -5
Understand - but it seems that every game I have seen the last few years, the teams with mobile bigs have overwhelmed us in every which way. We should at least try to counterbalance in some way. Just saying.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Apr 24, 2024 10:28:52 GMT -5
Interesting... I still cannot believe we have/had a 7'2" player who had played some BE minutes and that the coaching staff couldn't/cannot make him a useful player. That player could've been a fouling machine in the paint (i.e., anyone that gets passed you gets fouled) for one of the NCAA's worst defensive teams. I agree but we are beating a dead horse. There has to be more to the story than that Ryan just wasn't good enough to be coached into at least becoming a decent rim protector by his junior year but I'm afraid we will never know why that was. HE DOESNT CARE ABOUT BASKETBALL!!! You guys have been told this so many time by so many posters. But for whatever reason it doesn't stick.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 24, 2024 10:47:53 GMT -5
Count me as a fan of Fielder hoping that he wouldn't transfer and that he should've played more last season. That said, I don't see sophomore Fielder as a starting college basketball C for a NCAAT or a top-half-of-the-BE team unless we're so loaded that that's where minutes are available. Same goes for freshman Sorber. I see Fielder as a 4 or even a 3 to create mismatches on offense while defending the frontcourt in an extra-long zone. Btw, I saw all the games and the blow-bys are exaggerated (i.e., the kid is not a stiff) and should've been expected from a freshman thrown into the fire without a low-post stopper. The bottom line is that next year's team needs a proven, experienced starting big to defend the paint/rim and that's not Fielder or Sorber next year. That player will improve the overall defense of the team by allowing the other four players on the court to be more aggressive, by allowing his back-up to be more aggressive, by allowing the coach to show different defensive looks to confuse the opponent or create mismatches, etc... Cooley should not put next year's team in a position of having to depend on Fielder and/or Sorber to start at C. He needs to close on a defending C. I don’t see Fielder as a center. His high school coach saw him as a PF. I believe Cooley views him as a true forward. I would guess that Fielder himself does not think of himself as a five. But can he fill in that role for spot minutes? Yes. So the debate here is often whether in this era of college miniature ball you can have a dude who is taller than most college centers play at the 4 position. I think it can be done. Otherwise it’s a waste of recruiting imo if Sorber and Fielder can not share the court at the same time down the road.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 24, 2024 10:51:17 GMT -5
It's amazing to me we can't sign a veteran rim protector (7' or taller). This individual would surely get some significant playing time and great exposure in the Big East. If only we had a large NIL war chest at our disposal that has been touted by many sources including Big East insider John Fanta…. No, NIL chest, no matter how big, can make 7 foot capable basketball players grown on trees. There are only a handful of such guys at any given time in college.
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