RusskyHoya
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In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 18, 2023 17:21:59 GMT -5
Now that a media outlet has written an article about it...
Will share my thoughts in due course, but this is a good example of the inherent tensions in all the competing claims on what universities should do and be.
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 18, 2023 17:48:13 GMT -5
Schools are in favor of legacy admissions, it’s just that the current climate doesn’t allow them to state it. Legacy candidates are generally bright, familiar with the university and more likely to donate.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 18, 2023 18:20:23 GMT -5
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 18, 2023 19:49:18 GMT -5
I have interviewed a number of legacy candidates throughout the years and not one was admitted. I think the biggest misconception about legacies at GU is that those admitted are not qualified. It’s only natural for a parent to steer their child to their alma mater if they have fond memories and received a good education. This desire transcends race or economic status. Doing away with legacy admissions would alienate the entire alumni base.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 19, 2023 0:20:02 GMT -5
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 19, 2023 6:26:04 GMT -5
I’d be interested to see how many of the 800 would sign 25 years from now when their children are applying. Kids are swept up by the prevailing winds. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 19, 2023 6:40:11 GMT -5
I’d be interested to see how many of the 800 would sign 25 years from now when their children are applying. Kids are swept up by the prevailing winds. I’d also like to know how many are legacy themselves…. |
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 19, 2023 12:15:39 GMT -5
Language like this is so sloppy and misleading:
One in 10 Georgetown students may have had legacy status, though calculating that requires a definition of the term and it is not clear to me that "descendant of faculty, staff, or alumni" is the specific definition. Are you a "descendant of alumni" if your grandfather got his dental degree at Georgetown? Sure. Are you a "descendant of alumni" if your older sister is a current sophomore? Nope. Which of those two categories, absent a sizable donation from grandpa, is more likely to be of importance to admissions decisions?
More to the point, even if we accept that 10% of Georgetown students are legacies, it does not necessarily follow that all of those students "received an advantage in admissions" due to their legacy status. In fact, Georgetown gives no weight to legacy status for students applying early action, yet quite a few legacies are able to gain admission at EA without any additional legacy consideration. Likewise, other legacy applicants may be admitted as part of the ordinary admissions process via committee review, or as athletic recruits, or through other channels that do not provide any advantage to legacy applicants.
Of course, there are ultimately a small number of students who are admitted into what we could call "legacy slots," which are set aside for students with strong family connections to the university. While those students must be qualified, legacy consideration is not necessarily given as a "tip" to the close calls (though perhaps for siblings of current students), but more as a way to recognize and maintain that family connection. In many if not most cases, that is a financial determination, but not always, if the alumnus/a in question has been a faithful servant to alma mater in other ways.
If you think that last category of legacy admits is still problematic because it tends to favor a privileged and mostly white subsection, I am willing to listen to the argument, but I hope no one considers eliminating legacy preference as somehow equal to a court-mandated change in affirmative action policy. In a hypothetical world where 10% of students were admitted for legacy purposes and 10% were admitted for affirmative action purposes (neither of which is accurate), if you simply eliminated both of those paths and kept the same applicant pool, you would still net out with a less diverse class than under current/recent policies.
The problem has been and continues to be with getting more diverse applicants into the pool, and with getting the best of those applicants to enroll once admitted, and not with admitting those students who do make it into the applicant pool. I think Georgetown is a better place and a better learning environment when it is more diverse. I think Georgetown is better able to support the goal of diversity when it has a community of alumni who stay connected to Georgetown and give generously. And I think Georgetown is a better community when it has a sense of its past and its students are all treated as part of a multi-generational family.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 19, 2023 14:54:58 GMT -5
All very well said, Jack. Most of the people opining on the topic have no idea how it actually works...though, of course, that is by design - elite admissions offices operate with great opacity out of a desire to avoid even more gaming of the system than already exists.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Sept 19, 2023 15:16:04 GMT -5
Most of the people opining on the topic have no idea how it actually works... It's funny how much less I enjoy Malcolm Gladwell since he started spouting off on elite college admissions and golf, two topics where I believe I have reached his mystical 10,000 hours of experience and he most certainly has not. |
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaguy on Sept 19, 2023 15:48:05 GMT -5
Language like this is so sloppy and misleading: One in 10 Georgetown students may have had legacy status, though calculating that requires a definition of the term and it is not clear to me that "descendant of faculty, staff, or alumni" is the specific definition. Are you a "descendant of alumni" if your grandfather got his dental degree at Georgetown? Sure. Are you a "descendant of alumni" if your older sister is a current sophomore? Nope. Which of those two categories, absent a sizable donation from grandpa, is more likely to be of importance to admissions decisions? More to the point, even if we accept that 10% of Georgetown students are legacies, it does not necessarily follow that all of those students "received an advantage in admissions" due to their legacy status. In fact, Georgetown gives no weight to legacy status for students applying early action, yet quite a few legacies are able to gain admission at EA without any additional legacy consideration. Likewise, other legacy applicants may be admitted as part of the ordinary admissions process via committee review, or as athletic recruits, or through other channels that do not provide any advantage to legacy applicants. Of course, there are ultimately a small number of students who are admitted into what we could call "legacy slots," which are set aside for students with strong family connections to the university. While those students must be qualified, legacy consideration is not necessarily given as a "tip" to the close calls (though perhaps for siblings of current students), but more as a way to recognize and maintain that family connection. In many if not most cases, that is a financial determination, but not always, if the alumnus/a in question has been a faithful servant to alma mater in other ways. If you think that last category of legacy admits is still problematic because it tends to favor a privileged and mostly white subsection, I am willing to listen to the argument, but I hope no one considers eliminating legacy preference as somehow equal to a court-mandated change in affirmative action policy. In a hypothetical world where 10% of students were admitted for legacy purposes and 10% were admitted for affirmative action purposes (neither of which is accurate), if you simply eliminated both of those paths and kept the same applicant pool, you would still net out with a less diverse class than under current/recent policies. The problem has been and continues to be with getting more diverse applicants into the pool, and with getting the best of those applicants to enroll once admitted, and not with admitting those students who do make it into the applicant pool. I think Georgetown is a better place and a better learning environment when it is more diverse. I think Georgetown is better able to support the goal of diversity when it has a community of alumni who stay connected to Georgetown and give generously. And I think Georgetown is a better community when it has a sense of its past and its students are all treated as part of a multi-generational family. While I have a lot of mixed feelings about legacy admissions, if they are done within reason as framed above then it is less of an issue. There is definitely a lot of emotions stirred up by the changing of affirmative action, and I don't really want to go into it rn myself. So the reaction is go after legacy admissions and as I mentioned before unless it is widespread, or a totally unjust way of handling a non legacy applicant vs legacy, then it can serve benefits. It can be frustrating how the two arguments play about AA and legacy as there is obviously more reasonable middle ground than people want to admit. Also, some of these articles were insane such as one I read in the summer that was quite explicitly saying that I, as minority who was "allowed" to attend Georgetown, should be grateful spots are given to legacy and that I get to interact with them. I thought I was reading the onion when I saw that lol. Diversity of many kinds is extremely important, and personally I benefited the most from socioeconomic diversity (how ever limited at Georgetown and most elite schools it is) when making friends. Sure there were other latinos, but most I had a chance to interact with were much more of the yacht/golf club types and I had nothing in common with them and it's no surprise many don't want to hang out with people who cannot afford to eat out every night, or do boat parties every weekend. My main friend group could've been on one of those forced diversity photos on college brochures because we related on similar experiences by coming from similar socioeconomic levels, and sometimes we brought a much need fresh perspective to classroom/friendly discussions that yeah I spent time dodging gang violence, and was called slurs all the time in high school, it isn't something that just happens in history, books, or far away lands, which is important for people to hear instead of just reading, or seeing on the internet. So overall I am not a big fan of the way AA was executed, or legacy admissions, although both in limited ways can improve colleges, but I think socioeconomic diversity needs to take priority over everything to an extent. And if not, then a lot of universities need to stop pretending they are some great equalizer mobility gems of society just because they accept a couple "poor" kids from the bottom half of society in income. |
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 29, 2023 5:22:07 GMT -5
At Georgetown University, several hundred students, faculty members and others have signed a petition urging the Jesuit school to end its legacy preference. “It could not be more clear that this is what is necessary going forward,” said Asher Maxwell, 20, a sophomore from Nashville who signed the petition. He described himself as “somebody who cares about campus diversity” and wants to end admissions policies amounting to “an aristocratic system that rewards wealth and privilege.” Mark Giordano, a professor of geography and a vice dean in Georgetown’s prestigious School of Foreign Service, also signed. Emphasizing he did not speak for the administration, Giordano said the university must make clear it upholds principles of fairness and diversity. “To talk about equity and justice and Jesuit values, and then have the sign out that says you’re more likely to be admitted if your family members went here, it certainly doesn’t help,” he said. Georgetown, asked about the petition, was circumspect. There is no indication that it is shifting its legacy policy. “We are aware of a national dialogue around admissions practices and a petition from members of the Georgetown community, and we share their commitment to access and equity,” the university said. “While we are doing a thorough review of the Supreme Court ruling and our practices and engaging this question, we have no updates to announce at this time.” www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/09/29/colleges-keep-legacy-admissions/ |
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 29, 2023 11:11:14 GMT -5
At Georgetown University, several hundred students, faculty members and others have signed a petition urging the Jesuit school to end its legacy preference. “It could not be more clear that this is what is necessary going forward,” said Asher Maxwell, 20, a sophomore from Nashville who signed the petition. He described himself as “somebody who cares about campus diversity” and wants to end admissions policies amounting to “an aristocratic system that rewards wealth and privilege.” Mark Giordano, a professor of geography and a vice dean in Georgetown’s prestigious School of Foreign Service, also signed. Emphasizing he did not speak for the administration, Giordano said the university must make clear it upholds principles of fairness and diversity. “To talk about equity and justice and Jesuit values, and then have the sign out that says you’re more likely to be admitted if your family members went here, it certainly doesn’t help,” he said. Georgetown, asked about the petition, was circumspect. There is no indication that it is shifting its legacy policy. “We are aware of a national dialogue around admissions practices and a petition from members of the Georgetown community, and we share their commitment to access and equity,” the university said. “While we are doing a thorough review of the Supreme Court ruling and our practices and engaging this question, we have no updates to announce at this time.” www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/09/29/colleges-keep-legacy-admissions/What drives me nuts about things like this is the complete lack of any recognition of tradeoffs, the nuances of how the process works now (ably laid out by Jack above), etc. It's all just platitudes that could be used to argue for almost anything that feels good. I could just substitute in tuition abolition and it reads exactly the same: |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 29, 2023 11:56:27 GMT -5
For a young man with the aristocratic name of Asher Maxwell, educated at the Montgomery Bell Academy of Nashville, he certainly seems to embody the very definition of a sophomore. Why would someone with little or no knowledge of the subject at hand want to get his name in the Washington Post? This might answer it.  |
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 29, 2023 19:37:59 GMT -5
For a young man with the aristocratic name of Asher Maxwell, educated at the Montgomery Bell Academy of Nashville, he certainly seems to embody the very definition of a sophomore. Why would someone with little or no knowledge of the subject at hand want to get his name in the Washington Post? This might answer it. Maybe, he identifies as having struggled through childhood. 🤣 Warren’s worth over $10 million. 💰💰💰 |
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 30, 2023 18:22:25 GMT -5
For a site with the rule that no one should be impugning the reputation (or privacy) of any GU student-athlete, there's an awful lot of what I'll call vice-signaling (vice as perceived by the right/center-right) over a GU sophomore. Also a lot of forgetfulness over Sen. Warren's compelling personal history which I'll just leave here.... www.nytimes.com/2020/03/03/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-super-tuesday.htmlFWIW, $10M in certain areas (DC/NYC/my neck of the woods in SF) is just entry-level stakes for admittance in some circles----just sayin' Can we get back to the more nuanced discussion of legacy admissions as fostered by Russky and Jack and away from conclusions based on someone's last names or their high school alma maters?  Thanks..... |
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 30, 2023 20:12:00 GMT -5
It’s easy for a first generation Hoya to sign a petition against legacy admissions. It’s a different story when you become a parent of a smart child wanting to gain admission. I’m all for legacy admissions being the deciding factor between two otherwise equal candidates. It’s my understanding that that’s where it may come into play.
Also, a $12 million plus (2019) nest egg is pretty good considering her humble Native American roots and $179,000 salary (2019). 😉
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Oct 2, 2023 8:17:51 GMT -5
It’s easy for a first generation Hoya to sign a petition against legacy admissions. It’s a different story when you become a parent of a smart child wanting to gain admission. I’m all for legacy admissions being the deciding factor between two otherwise equal candidates. It’s my understanding that that’s where it may come into play. Your understanding is not correct. |
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Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by Elvado on Oct 2, 2023 8:55:49 GMT -5
My son is applying this cycle.
He has the credentials to get in. I hope he does.
He should not get in “because” I went to GU.
He should not be denied “because” I went to GU.
The rub is where to draw the line as to identity of applicants.
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Oct 2, 2023 12:37:43 GMT -5
It’s easy for a first generation Hoya to sign a petition against legacy admissions. It’s a different story when you become a parent of a smart child wanting to gain admission. I’m all for legacy admissions being the deciding factor between two otherwise equal candidates. It’s my understanding that that’s where it may come into play. Your understanding is not correct. What’s your understanding? I do know the legacies are reconsidered towards the end of the process. I don’t believe that under qualified legacies are admitted, maybe with some rare exceptions. I have been interviewing candidates for over 15 years. Perhaps, I’m being lied to by the admissions office representatives. None of the legacies I’ve interviewed have been admitted, zero. |
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Thanks.....