RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 13, 2023 7:51:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm being a bit hyperbolic. I think it was a trial balloon more than a serious, ready-to-go proposal and got blown out of proportion. Renaming SFS seems so over the top to me even as a trial ballon. An Endowed Professorship in her name seems about right to me. For example, a former President of the Georgetown Band member seeded an Endowed Fund for the GU Band in honor of longtime Arts Administrator Ron Lignelli upon his retirement and we are about 40% of the way to meet our goal. The Ron Lignelli Fund was established in 2022 as an endowment fund for the GU Pep Band. The fund was founded by Rich Fiesta (GU Band Alum CAS '79 and LAW '82; former Band President). It is named after Ronald J. Lignelli, who served as the Pep Band's administrative director for 37 years, dedicating much of his career to the organization. The fund will be used to support band operations such as music, new instruments and special events, such as the recent band Centennial celebrated in April 2022. We appreciate any and all contributions! Donations can be made at the link below. www.georgetownpepband.com/donateYeah, the trial balloon isn't so much about Albright as it is about ditching Walsh, whose reputation will not get any better with age, e.g., thehoya.com/fr-walsh-linked-to-mccarthyism/(For the counter-argument, we have the counter-petition: www.change.org/p/save-fr-edmund-a-walsh-s-j-s-name-in-georgetown-university-s-school-of-foreign-service)There could be a push for Clinton one day. No chance of that - whether it's impeachment-worthy or not, it's generally recognized (especially on the left) these days that engaging in a sexual relationship with a subordinate is grossly unethical.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,735
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 13, 2023 9:11:41 GMT -5
Edmund Walsh SJ is among the four greatest figures in Georgetown University history. All the presentism in the world doesn't change that. At a Southern college of the 1910s still framed by Catholic paternalism and the Ratio Studiorum, Walsh brought Georgetown into the 20th Century, framing a modern curriculum and calling for real scholarship in the cause of international service, a concept largely unique in American higher education. He brought in thinkers (and doers) from around the world to come to Georgetown to teach and established Georgetown as a center for leadership in the areas of international relations and the political economy of world affairs, even when the University constrained the school to rent space off campus or the decrepit "Annex" where Village B stands. SFS (and its spin-off schools of Languages and Linguistics and Business) were bellwethers of the University because of Walsh. Was Walsh an anti-Communist? Absolutely, even if that's not so popular today. He saw the horrors of Lenin and Stalin first hand, something few Americans did. He was a part of a US mission to the Russian famine of the early 1920s, and knowing that 5-10 million Russians died of starvation because of politics would affect any rational man, and especially a religious one. He was in the USSR during the campaign to eradicate the Russian Orthodox Church. Nearly 100,000 priests were executed by the Soviet Union and thousands of churches were burned to the ground. That can change a man. In my days at Georgetown there was a Jesuit, Richard McSorley SJ, who was "linked" (as they say) with all sorts of sketchy anti-war and pacifist organizations of varying repute, and was left by the school to teach a odd course in peace studies--the contemporary thinking was that as long as you agreed with him, you would get an A. To some, he was a nut or a gadfly. Except McSorley saw the horrors of war first hand, as a prisoner of war by Japan for three years in World War II. To be a POW in the Pacific theater wasn't Hogan's Heroes-- 40 percent of Allied prisoners died of starvation or outright murder. McSorley saw the need for peace above all things first hand and devoted his life to it. You didn't need to agree with his position on ROTC to understand his sincerity. McSorley's opinions on other issues would not be as politically correct or DEI-friendly today, but that is not what he is remembered for, nor what he tried to do. Similarly, Walsh was an anti-Communist because he saw its dangers first hand, and knew enough of the Soviet leadership first hand to know they were not content until their expansionist policies were worldwide. His solution was not to kill Communists, but to establish education as a bulwark against it. That's a legacy worth supporting.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 13, 2023 10:58:45 GMT -5
Similarly, Walsh was an anti-Communist because he saw its dangers first hand, and knew enough of the Soviet leadership first hand to know they were not content until their expansionist policies were worldwide. His solution was not to kill Communists, but to establish education as a bulwark against it. That's a legacy worth supporting. I mean, he did write an article arguing that first strike nuking the USSR was moral and could be desirable, so he definitely did consider killing communists to be *a* solution. But...speaking as someone born in the USSR and who has spent a lot of time studying this era of history...Walsh was not a bloodthirsty extremist, and his proximity to McCarthy was overblown. To me, he passes a test that McSherry and Mulledy do not.
|
|
|
Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Jul 13, 2023 10:58:57 GMT -5
Edmund Walsh SJ is among the four greatest figures in Georgetown University history. All the presentism in the world doesn't change that. At a Southern college of the 1910s still framed by Catholic paternalism and the Ratio Studiorum, Walsh brought Georgetown into the 20th Century, framing a modern curriculum and calling for real scholarship in the cause of international service, a concept largely unique in American higher education. He brought in thinkers (and doers) from around the world to come to Georgetown to teach and established Georgetown as a center for leadership in the areas of international relations and the political economy of world affairs, even when the University constrained the school to rent space off campus or the decrepit "Annex" where Village B stands. SFS (and its spin-off schools of Languages and Linguistics and Business) were bellwethers of the University because of Walsh. Was Walsh an anti-Communist? Absolutely, even if that's not so popular today. He saw the horrors of Lenin and Stalin first hand, something few Americans did. He was a part of a US mission to the Russian famine of the early 1920s, and knowing that 5-10 million Russians died of starvation because of politics would affect any rational man, and especially a religious one. He was in the USSR during the campaign to eradicate the Russian Orthodox Church. Nearly 100,000 priests were executed by the Soviet Union and thousands of churches were burned to the ground. That can change a man. In my days at Georgetown there was a Jesuit, Richard McSorley SJ, who was "linked" (as they say) with all sorts of sketchy anti-war and pacifist organizations of varying repute, and was left by the school to teach a odd course in peace studies--the contemporary thinking was that as long as you agreed with him, you would get an A. To some, he was a nut or a gadfly. Except McSorley saw the horrors of war first hand, as a prisoner of war by Japan for three years in World War II. To be a POW in the Pacific theater wasn't Hogan's Heroes-- 40 percent of Allied prisoners died of starvation or outright murder. McSorley saw the need for peace above all things first hand and devoted his life to it. You didn't need to agree with his position on ROTC to understand his sincerity. McSorley's opinions on other issues would not be as politically correct or DEI-friendly today, but that is not what he is remembered for, nor what he tried to do. Similarly, Walsh was an anti-Communist because he saw its dangers first hand, and knew enough of the Soviet leadership first hand to know they were not content until their expansionist policies were worldwide. His solution was not to kill Communists, but to establish education as a bulwark against it. That's a legacy worth supporting. Post of the year, right here......
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,258
|
Post by SSHoya on Jul 13, 2023 11:41:31 GMT -5
Similarly, Walsh was an anti-Communist because he saw its dangers first hand, and knew enough of the Soviet leadership first hand to know they were not content until their expansionist policies were worldwide. His solution was not to kill Communists, but to establish education as a bulwark against it. That's a legacy worth supporting. I mean, he did write an article arguing that first strike nuking the USSR was moral and could be desirable, so he definitely did consider killing communists to be *a* solution. But...speaking as someone born in the USSR and who has spent a lot of time studying this era of history...Walsh was not a bloodthirsty extremist, and his proximity to McCarthy was overblown. To me, he passes a test that McSherry and Mulledy do not. Interestingly, Fr. Joseph Sebes was also imprisoned with McSorley in China during WWII. Father Sebes is credited with the founding of the School of Business Administration, which was originally housed in the School of Foreign Service. His solution for global political stability was economic integration and commercial markets, a vastly different approach than that of Fr. McSorley. While I never doubted Fr. McSorley's sincerity, I thought his campaign for removing ROTC from GU by likening it to prostitution was ludicrous. I remember him clearly making the argument that Georgetown would not "teach" prostitution on campus so why should it "teach" military science. In 1957, Rev. Joseph Sebes, S.J, founded the School of Business Administration, believing that an understanding of commercial markets is essential to worldwide political stability. Among the faculty, there was a sense that what they were doing was experimental — even revolutionary — because the Jesuit community opposed a school focused on the idea of making money. Nonetheless, the school persevered, and by the 1980s, it was primed for a breakthrough. msb.georgetown.edu/about/history/
|
|
Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,480
|
Post by Elvado on Jul 13, 2023 12:23:02 GMT -5
Edmund Walsh SJ is among the four greatest figures in Georgetown University history. All the presentism in the world doesn't change that. At a Southern college of the 1910s still framed by Catholic paternalism and the Ratio Studiorum, Walsh brought Georgetown into the 20th Century, framing a modern curriculum and calling for real scholarship in the cause of international service, a concept largely unique in American higher education. He brought in thinkers (and doers) from around the world to come to Georgetown to teach and established Georgetown as a center for leadership in the areas of international relations and the political economy of world affairs, even when the University constrained the school to rent space off campus or the decrepit "Annex" where Village B stands. SFS (and its spin-off schools of Languages and Linguistics and Business) were bellwethers of the University because of Walsh. Was Walsh an anti-Communist? Absolutely, even if that's not so popular today. He saw the horrors of Lenin and Stalin first hand, something few Americans did. He was a part of a US mission to the Russian famine of the early 1920s, and knowing that 5-10 million Russians died of starvation because of politics would affect any rational man, and especially a religious one. He was in the USSR during the campaign to eradicate the Russian Orthodox Church. Nearly 100,000 priests were executed by the Soviet Union and thousands of churches were burned to the ground. That can change a man. In my days at Georgetown there was a Jesuit, Richard McSorley SJ, who was "linked" (as they say) with all sorts of sketchy anti-war and pacifist organizations of varying repute, and was left by the school to teach a odd course in peace studies--the contemporary thinking was that as long as you agreed with him, you would get an A. To some, he was a nut or a gadfly. Except McSorley saw the horrors of war first hand, as a prisoner of war by Japan for three years in World War II. To be a POW in the Pacific theater wasn't Hogan's Heroes-- 40 percent of Allied prisoners died of starvation or outright murder. McSorley saw the need for peace above all things first hand and devoted his life to it. You didn't need to agree with his position on ROTC to understand his sincerity. McSorley's opinions on other issues would not be as politically correct or DEI-friendly today, but that is not what he is remembered for, nor what he tried to do. Similarly, Walsh was an anti-Communist because he saw its dangers first hand, and knew enough of the Soviet leadership first hand to know they were not content until their expansionist policies were worldwide. His solution was not to kill Communists, but to establish education as a bulwark against it. That's a legacy worth supporting. Thank you John. Well said.
|
|
BSM
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 489
|
Post by BSM on Jul 17, 2023 17:22:02 GMT -5
To use an old Irish expression, it's easy to be a Hurler on the Ditch. Never fault anyone who stared the ugliness of the Human Experience in the face and formed an opinion based upon what they lived through
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,319
|
Post by tashoya on Jul 17, 2023 21:33:45 GMT -5
THIS is the best of Hoyatalk. Thank you, gents.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 10, 2023 19:47:56 GMT -5
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,641
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 10, 2023 22:02:43 GMT -5
I bet if someone ponied up enough money the school could be named after them. It’s all for sale at the right price.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,735
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 10, 2023 22:49:05 GMT -5
I bet if someone ponied up enough money the school could be named after them. It’s all for sale at the right price. It cost James B. Duke just $24 million from his profits at the American Tobacco Company to rename Trinity College, so anything is on the table. But in this case, however, this should collapse of its own weight. Not only was Albright not among the great secretaries of state in American history, she didn't even get a degree from Georgetown. Instead of publishing yet another column, The HOYA might ask a salient question: who wants this, and why now? Follow the money.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 11, 2023 16:25:40 GMT -5
I bet if someone ponied up enough money the school could be named after them. It’s all for sale at the right price. It cost James B. Duke just $24 million from his profits at the American Tobacco Company to rename Trinity College, so anything is on the table. But in this case, however, this should collapse of its own weight. Not only was Albright not among the great secretaries of state in American history, she didn't even get a degree from Georgetown. Instead of publishing yet another column, The HOYA might ask a salient question: who wants this, and why now? Follow the money. Next time I talk to someone from SFS who might be in the know, I'll ask them. FWIW, the branding of the SFS has been an oddly (oddly to me, anyway) contested topic over the last 15 years. Everyone calls it "the SFS," but there have been a few actors - I always associate it with Eleanor Monte-Jones, but there have been others - who found the three-letter acronym to be too anonymous, alphabet soup/corporate sounding, etc. and wanted to make "The Walsh School" be the primary identity. I don't have a better theory than "follow the money" for "Why now?" either, short of someone uncovering some damning Walsh writings or account of his activities or something.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,641
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 12, 2023 4:23:07 GMT -5
It cost James B. Duke just $24 million from his profits at the American Tobacco Company to rename Trinity College, so anything is on the table. But in this case, however, this should collapse of its own weight. Not only was Albright not among the great secretaries of state in American history, she didn't even get a degree from Georgetown. Instead of publishing yet another column, The HOYA might ask a salient question: who wants this, and why now? Follow the money. Next time I talk to someone from SFS who might be in the know, I'll ask them. FWIW, the branding of the SFS has been an oddly (oddly to me, anyway) contested topic over the last 15 years. Everyone calls it "the SFS," but there have been a few actors - I always associate it with Eleanor Monte-Jones, but there have been others - who found the three-letter acronym to be too anonymous, alphabet soup/corporate sounding, etc. and wanted to make "The Walsh School" be the primary identity. I don't have a better theory than "follow the money" for "Why now?" either, short of someone uncovering some damning Walsh writings or account of his activities or something. Agree that SFS is unfortunate. A prestigious school/program should go by a name, think Wharton or Kennedy School. Much like business school are named.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,258
|
Post by SSHoya on Sept 12, 2023 4:33:44 GMT -5
Next time I talk to someone from SFS who might be in the know, I'll ask them. FWIW, the branding of the SFS has been an oddly (oddly to me, anyway) contested topic over the last 15 years. Everyone calls it "the SFS," but there have been a few actors - I always associate it with Eleanor Monte-Jones, but there have been others - who found the three-letter acronym to be too anonymous, alphabet soup/corporate sounding, etc. and wanted to make "The Walsh School" be the primary identity. I don't have a better theory than "follow the money" for "Why now?" either, short of someone uncovering some damning Walsh writings or account of his activities or something. Agree that SFS is unfortunate. A prestigious school/program should go by a name, think Wharton or Kennedy School. Much like business school are named. Or the Fletcher School. Johns Hopkins gets by with SAIS, though.
|
|
CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
Posts: 2,853
|
Post by CTHoya08 on Sept 13, 2023 9:11:40 GMT -5
Or the erstwhile Wilson School.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 13, 2023 11:35:16 GMT -5
Agree that SFS is unfortunate. A prestigious school/program should go by a name, think Wharton or Kennedy School. Much like business school are named. Or the Fletcher School. Johns Hopkins gets by with SAIS, though. That's because nobody knows how to pronounce Paul Nitze's last name.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,258
|
Post by SSHoya on Sept 13, 2023 13:21:45 GMT -5
Or the Fletcher School. Johns Hopkins gets by with SAIS, though. That's because nobody knows how to pronounce Paul Nitze's last name. 😃
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 10, 2023 13:24:26 GMT -5
And thus ends the stupidest saga in SFS history
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,735
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 16, 2023 10:35:10 GMT -5
And thus ends the stupidest saga in SFS history I have much respect for Joel Hellman and understand his frustration at the appearance that SFS is stalling out in some areas, but this was certainly not the way to address it.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 27, 2023 11:52:03 GMT -5
And thus ends the stupidest saga in SFS history I have much respect for Joel Hellman and understand his frustration at the appearance that SFS is stalling out in some areas, but this was certainly not the way to address it. Some more elaboration in that vein: thehoya.com/school-of-foreign-service-to-not-rename-after-madeleine-albright/The notion that this all could be discussed without leaking was delusional. The second you tell any student or any faculty member with tenure, you might as well consider it public.
|
|