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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 3, 2005 9:03:56 GMT -5
What is laughable is the popular yet baseless notion that Esherick's game-time coaching somehow was a major factor in our decline. The evidence of such is weak at best and nill at worst.
I certainly give Big John lots of credit for recruiting most of the '01 team. As I have often argued, recruiting is by far and away the most important part of a college coach's job. Nonetheless, I was responding to a poster who stated that Esherick took us from 60 to 0. How can you say that we went from 60 to 0 under Esherick when we went from not making the NCAAs to being in the Sweet Sixteen? At least that poster should acknowledge that the picture is much more complex than he painted it.
Ban Esherick discussions? Sure, because the people claiming that he ruined the program are embarrassing themselves. I'll restate my offer from earlier this summer that anyone who believes that Esherick's coaching was a major negative factor in our wins and losses during his tenure can choose games that allegedly demonstrate this point, we can exchange game tapes, and then both analyze them, for the board to digest. No one took me up the first time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2005 9:09:16 GMT -5
No one took me up the first time. Nobody's that bored. All kidding aside, the games people most cite as Esh fiascos are the ones where we had the ball with the last shot and failed to even get one off (ND comes to mind, of course). I'm just curious as to what you chalk that up to... players just failing to execute? If that's the case, I agree: to a certain extent that is the player's fault. The coach can only coach so much. But that's only the case the first time or two. I seem to remember that happening much more frequently, in which case - whether its Esh or anyone else - I lay the blame on the coach. Especially when he's usually got a monster down in the low post who would have likely gotten fouled and gone to the line. Just curious...
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Post by bawlmerhoya on Aug 3, 2005 9:11:29 GMT -5
I thought the column was kind of mean and stupid. Why kick these guys while they are down? Esh tried hard, but did not end up with much to show for it. I appreciate his time and dedication to the University, but III has dramatically improved the program. I think the Board should focus on the bright future and not dwell on the past.
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gopaland
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by gopaland on Aug 3, 2005 9:18:43 GMT -5
I feel terrible right now - I just wrote Doyel a message yesterday saying that he was not a complete idiot like the college hoops analysts over on the worldwide leader. Looks like I'm going to have to write him another one saying I was wrong. Besides where's Nick Nolte's character from Blue Chips on this list?
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 3, 2005 9:19:41 GMT -5
Sweetney was consistently double-teamed and denied the ball in the post near the end of games, so just dumping it in to him and having him get fouled was not nearly the option that many people portray it to be. What we needed were guards who could penetrate, draw defenders from Mike, and then dish it to him-- but that was something we lacked. As I have argued many times, it was an issue of talent much more so than performance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2005 9:38:41 GMT -5
But couldn't you then say it was Esh's job to recruit and keep that talent? Of course, many of those players were Thompson's, but one year into the job look what JTIII has done recruiting... Esh certainly could have gotten his own players in by the end of his first full year recruiting (after the 99-00 season).
Sweetney WAS often double teamed, you're right... but then that means there was someone open. Someone who - as far as I recall - didn't get many shots, because like you said we didn't have a great drive-and-dish guard. So, in my opinion, its up to the coach to draw up the plays that best utilize the talent you have.
Look, I'm not here to pile on Esh. I personally like the guy and think - in agreeance with _way - he's a great Hoya and an asset to the university in some way. My opinion of him all along was just that he was in over his head coaching and recruiting in the Big East (even though he is the one who initially got us involved with Roy, Jeff, Tyler, etc.).
Here's how I look at his end-of-game coaching. Imagine a college football team, we'll call Big State. Big State is good, but doesn't blow anyone out and they often play games in overtime. Now, more times than not, Big State has the last possession with the game tied or them down by 3 and a touchdown would win it. For some crazy reason, they don't have a kicker and must always go for the TD. Big State's coach has drawn up a great play: a reverse option or something crazy, but not too crazy. If executed properly it should always result in the touchdown they need. However, in the first game of the season it falls apart at the snap and they loose the game.
In subsequent games and subsequent last possessions of the game or in overtime, they try it over and over but it has become clear the players cannot execute this play - but the coach insists on running it. Meanwhile, he's got a 6-6 wide receiver on the other side of the field that - while covered by a corner and usually doubled by a safety - is one of the best in the conference and a beast of a player in the end zone. I'd argue - like I do with Esh - that this coach simply isn't drawing up the right plays and maximizing the talents of the player's he has and is too stuck on the same "if we execute this it should work" mentality... adjustments have to be made.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Aug 3, 2005 10:08:58 GMT -5
Another Esh debate. Here is my take. 97% of this board HATE Esh. Not dislike. But HATE him. Its like he stole something from them. The other 3%, which include myself and hoyalove4ever and a few others, liked Esh as a person, didn't think he was THAT bad of a coach, didn't like the manner in which he was let go. A needed change in coaches was understandable given the past couple of years of player and assistant coaching defections, transfers, inconsistent play on the court, and Esh's final season. However, JTIII is the best replacement you can find in a coach. So you can't argue with people who jump at the chance at putting Esh down every chance they get. They are like right-wing conservatives. You have a better chance reasoning with a rock. ;D I say this: Esh is a Hoya, and he is gone. He has a job in New York where he still is involved in sports. I wish him the best. Lets move on. We have new recruits this year, JTIII is building this into a great program again. We have a shot at the NCAA's and making a dent in the New Big East. And things are on the up and up. Lets focus on that, and not the Esh era. Its over.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Aug 3, 2005 11:04:12 GMT -5
Did any of you see the following post to the message board below Doyel's article from one "TJ Crawford?" Might it be Tyler? Regardless, I agree completely with his post.
"Esherick Posted by tjcrawford1 Aug 3, 9:55 am Doyel, you're an idiot. While Esherick didn't quite get it done at G'town (except for a Sweet 16 run in '01), he ran a clean, respectable program. Including him with these borderline criminals is a joke. "
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Post by JustAfan on Aug 3, 2005 11:26:09 GMT -5
Esh, good, bad, great guy, or what ever, is there anyone who thinks it was not time for him to go wether he was fired, resigned on his own, or was asked to resign.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 3, 2005 11:28:20 GMT -5
Esh, good, bad, great guy, or what ever, is there anyone who thinks it was not time for him to go wether he was fired, resigned on his own, or was asked to resign. Yes, me.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Aug 3, 2005 11:36:12 GMT -5
Esh, good, bad, great guy, or what ever, is there anyone who thinks it was not time for him to go wether he was fired, resigned on his own, or was asked to resign. I say this. I did not want to see Esh go. If the administration was going to fire him they should have done it before going out on a limb and giving him a ringing endorsement in the papers. You don't say one thing and do another. That was my main problem as well as the farce of protest rallys and petitions. Now if Esh was terminated the right way, I could understand why given the past couple of unfortunate seasons under his reign. I would not have agreed with it because I thought Esh was turning the program around with the good recruiting class you saw last year as well as Aboya for the following year, Esh cleaning in-house of dead weight (RT and Chip Simms departures), and Chuck Driesell and Jaren to the staff, etc. However, if Esh were to be replaced, JTIII is the best option. JTIII is a great offensive AND defensive coach, and he fits what the program is looking for in terms of success on and off the court. Esh didn't have much success on the court.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Aug 3, 2005 15:27:56 GMT -5
I, too, was conflicted re: Esh’s departure. While I was underwhelmed by the team’s performances while he was head coach, I thought his exit was not well handled. And the general tenor of the HoyaTalk comments about him border on the absurd. I shudder to think what would have been said about him here if he weren’t a dyed-in-the-wool Hoya. I mean here’s a guy who got two degrees from GU, played for the team, was a loyal assistant forever and, finally headman and this board tends to treat him like, like he was from Syracuse or Uconn!
I just wanted to add that while clearly Big John was the reason we got as many top players to come to the Hilltop, I think it’s worth mentioning that after Bill Stein’s departure, Esh was John’s chief recruiting assistant. In other words, he played a real role in helping lure a number of the players JTII landed. FWIW, he deserves credit for that, among other things – the vast majority of which are positive.
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hoyanick
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by hoyanick on Aug 3, 2005 17:25:24 GMT -5
I do not think that Esh's tactical weaknesses were only apparent at the end of close games. I remember many times at MCI when a non-Hoya friend would ask me what kind of offense we were running, why we weren't exploiting our advantages with sweetney and his fellow bigs. I myself was befuddled by the offense, so I would just sit there, embarassed.
He also had clearly lost the ability to motivate his student athletes. The entire program was in the doldrums, and a change was obviously needed.
I also think that this dude's article was off. He does not belong in that crowd. But, ponder this question: If you were an AD somewhere, would YOU hire Esh??
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoya73 on Aug 3, 2005 17:42:20 GMT -5
Why wouldn't Dave Bliss be number 1 on this list?
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HoyaNJ5
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by HoyaNJ5 on Aug 3, 2005 18:05:51 GMT -5
You have a better chance reasoning with a rock. ;D Come on. Are you seriously telling others that reasoning with them is like reasoning with a rock?
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by the_way on Aug 3, 2005 18:46:58 GMT -5
You have a better chance reasoning with a rock. ;D Come on. Are you seriously telling others that reasoning with them is like reasoning with a rock? Yes, very much so.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2005 18:48:38 GMT -5
Hello, Pot? This is Mr. Kettle. I'm just calling to tell you...
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Aug 3, 2005 21:57:23 GMT -5
What we needed were guards who could penetrate, draw defenders from Mike, and then dish it to him-- but that was something we lacked. As I have argued many times, it was an issue of talent much more so than performance. Are you saying Trenton Hillier was not a guard who could penetrate? Shame on you!
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 3, 2005 22:04:28 GMT -5
Any way we can rename this one to the Official Eshoholic Mythology Thread? I feel like we could reduce some clutter if we just had it in one place.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by the_way on Aug 4, 2005 7:51:12 GMT -5
Hello, Pot? This is Mr. Kettle. I'm just calling to tell you... Lay off the drugs, Buff. You are hallucinating again.
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