biggmanu
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 671
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Post by biggmanu on Feb 10, 2022 15:51:05 GMT -5
IMO JT3’s biggest mistake (with the benefit of hindsight) was taking Reggie Cameron over Josh Hart. We could have been special with Josh and that might have saved JT3
Which often makes me think is Rice (also a 3pt specialist) going to be the guy who ruins Ewing’s run. Not sure who we coulda gotten instead but obviously the gap left by King and Qudus is glaring.
It is lost on some here that the pain of Leblanc transfer group is something that’s felt more now than last year as the balance of maturity is out of wack. I realize Pat picked those guys. Maybe it’s Leblanc (not Rice) that ruins Pats run. It’s really hard to overcome what happened to the Mac/Akinjo/Leblanc class….we knew we had tough times and imbalances ahead after that and I blame that more than anything.
I think of Ewing’s transfer issues as two separate items 1) the Leblanc group fiasco 2) the Q headscratcher. I think when CasualHoya lists out every transfer is stupid cause none of the others guys really mattered.
Lastly I’m annoyed by the GM discussion as folks are mixing coaching and GM (which I think of as recruiting only) into the same argumentative positions. The only thing you can grade a coach on GM objectively is how well the incoming class is ranked compared to our peers. Ewing is currently still drawing highly ranked talent relative to his peers. We aren’t going to feel that right away it is going to take 1-2 to realize this classes potential just like it took a couple years to realize the pain once Pats first class
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,818
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Post by hoyazeke on Feb 10, 2022 17:20:52 GMT -5
IMO JT3’s biggest mistake (with the benefit of hindsight) was taking Reggie Cameron over Josh Hart. We could have been special with Josh and that might have saved JT3 Which often makes me think is Rice (also a 3pt specialist) going to be the guy who ruins Ewing’s run. Not sure who we coulda gotten instead but obviously the gap left by King and Qudus is glaring. It is lost on some here that the pain of Leblanc transfer group is something that’s felt more now than last year as the balance of maturity is out of wack. I realize Pat picked those guys. Maybe it’s Leblanc (not Rice) that ruins Pats run. It’s really hard to overcome what happened to the Mac/Akinjo/Leblanc class….we knew we had tough times and imbalances ahead after that and I blame that more than anything. I think of Ewing’s transfer issues as two separate items 1) the Leblanc group fiasco 2) the Q headscratcher. I think when CasualHoya lists out every transfer is stupid cause none of the others guys really mattered. Lastly I’m annoyed by the GM discussion as folks are mixing coaching and GM (which I think of as recruiting only) into the same argumentative positions. The only thing you can grade a coach on GM objectively is how well the incoming class is ranked compared to our peers. Ewing is currently still drawing highly ranked talent relative to his peers. We aren’t going to feel that right away it is going to take 1-2 to realize this classes potential just like it took a couple years to realize the pain once Pats first class Thank you. I tried to say this a few post earlier. We basically lost 2 recruiting classes behind the Akinjo/Mac squabble and the LeBlanc/Alexander incident. Retention is Ewing's responsibility but the reasons for the transfers weren't normal situations. A player hating another player because he has more Instagram followers, 2 players being accused of theft(?), 1 player leaving school because of the drama and 1 kid transferring when Ewing pretty much designed his O around him. That's 6 players that should've been a major part of last season and 3-4 that would/could be on this team.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 10, 2022 18:20:42 GMT -5
Right. JT III's demise really started with the loss of Whittington. These things take years to manifest.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,224
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 10, 2022 20:49:03 GMT -5
I gave up on this one at the time out when the DePaul run was 28-2. I just couldn't stomach any more, and moved on to the Olympics. You go, Chloe Kim and Nathan Chen.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 11, 2022 8:38:19 GMT -5
IMO JT3’s biggest mistake (with the benefit of hindsight) was taking Reggie Cameron over Josh Hart. We could have been special with Josh and that might have saved JT3 Which often makes me think is Rice (also a 3pt specialist) going to be the guy who ruins Ewing’s run. Not sure who we coulda gotten instead but obviously the gap left by King and Qudus is glaring. It is lost on some here that the pain of Leblanc transfer group is something that’s felt more now than last year as the balance of maturity is out of wack. I realize Pat picked those guys. Maybe it’s Leblanc (not Rice) that ruins Pats run. It’s really hard to overcome what happened to the Mac/Akinjo/Leblanc class….we knew we had tough times and imbalances ahead after that and I blame that more than anything. I think of Ewing’s transfer issues as two separate items 1) the Leblanc group fiasco 2) the Q headscratcher. I think when CasualHoya lists out every transfer is stupid cause none of the others guys really mattered. Lastly I’m annoyed by the GM discussion as folks are mixing coaching and GM (which I think of as recruiting only) into the same argumentative positions. The only thing you can grade a coach on GM objectively is how well the incoming class is ranked compared to our peers. Ewing is currently still drawing highly ranked talent relative to his peers. We aren’t going to feel that right away it is going to take 1-2 to realize this classes potential just like it took a couple years to realize the pain once Pats first class I 100% agree that listing out all the transfers isn't productive. There's definitely a difference between Berger transferring and Wahab transferring. But a few points I'd counter: 1. I think summarizing a coach's demise to one recruit is a little reductive, whether it be Josh Hart or Kaiden Rice. This roster is not one player away from competence unfortunately. Does Josh Hart become the Nova version of Josh Hart if he's in Gtown system / development program? We'll never know but I find it hard to believe he would change the entire trajectory of the program. 2. I'll agree the year 3 transfers had a huge impact on the program. I argued at the end of season 3 if we're keeping Ewing, and it was absolutely fair to let him try and reboot after harsh lessons learned, then you had to give him two full years to see where we are. Complaining when we were bad at the beginning of last year felt unnecessary, after losing that much of a core to transfers. Those two years are almost up, and the results and outlook just aren't where they need to be. 3. If we're just looking at recruiting, I would say the results have been fine, not the reason we're failing but I'm not so sure it's some massive outperformance across the five years. But either way, looking at recruiting only and discounting retention and player development seems like cherry picking. I don't love the GM analogy, but that would be akin to judging a GM on drafts only and ignoring free agency. Bottom line: James Akinjo, Mac McClung, Josh LeBlanc, and Qudus Wahab all thought it was better for them to continue their college careers elsewhere (I don't care about the rest of the transfers). You can try and explain away each individual decision however you want. People just dismiss the Akinjo / Mac issues, but what were they each told as part of the recruiting process? Did Ewing do everything he could to help them coexist? It was obvious they should be separated as much as possible and come together basically for starts / ends of games. At the time I said they should be divided like the Rockets Paul / Harden schedule. Give them each time to run the show, and pick the spots for them to play together. Ewing did the opposite, forced them into a situation neither wanted, and then Mac still wanted to leave even after Akinjo was gone. Everyone knew at the time that Q leaving didn't make sense. But what relationship did you have with the player that you couldn't show him how bad a decision it was. Blame the "handler", what's your relationship with the "handler". If you knew he had bad influences in his circle you should've considered that when you recruited him. Josh looked like a markedly worse player in year 2, partly leading to him falling out of the rotation and looking to transfer. Where was the program in helping him develop between freshman and sophomore year. Did we help him maximize his talent? 4. On the Xs and Os coaching front, I don't think he's as terrible as some will make it out to be, but I don't think he's getting the most out of talent, ie are they overachieving. I personally don't have much of an issue with the offense. Sure it's a little repetitive at times, and maybe isn't the perfect fit for this version of the roster. Our offense is currently ranked like 126th...that seems more or less in line with the talent level. Our defense is ranked 250th...that can simply never happen. If anything, I would expect a coach to be able to influence defense more than offense. There's only so much he can do on offense, guys have to make shots. On defense, there's so much more we can be doing. Even if he was trying all sorts of different things and they didnt work, at least we could say he was getting creative and trying to maximize talent. He's running the same thing, every game, expecting a different result, and then blames the players and doesn't even acknowledge he needs to re-evaluate the approach. TL; DR: It's really difficult to blame the roster as lacking talent and somehow absolve Ewing of the current talent on the roster. There's a stubbornness to everything that gives you little hope to think he'd try something different in the future. I desperately tried to give Ewing credit for the defensive improvement last year, however brief it was. I said whether he could retain that improvement would define his tenure here. We responded with the worst defense in the history of our modern era. I have no reason to believe next year would be better, which is where I was with JT3 and think it's probably time to move in a different direction. I hope it's amicable and done in a way that lets us honor Ewing for his contributions to building the program.
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biggmanu
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 671
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Post by biggmanu on Feb 11, 2022 9:44:53 GMT -5
IMO JT3’s biggest mistake (with the benefit of hindsight) was taking Reggie Cameron over Josh Hart. We could have been special with Josh and that might have saved JT3 Which often makes me think is Rice (also a 3pt specialist) going to be the guy who ruins Ewing’s run. Not sure who we coulda gotten instead but obviously the gap left by King and Qudus is glaring. It is lost on some here that the pain of Leblanc transfer group is something that’s felt more now than last year as the balance of maturity is out of wack. I realize Pat picked those guys. Maybe it’s Leblanc (not Rice) that ruins Pats run. It’s really hard to overcome what happened to the Mac/Akinjo/Leblanc class….we knew we had tough times and imbalances ahead after that and I blame that more than anything. I think of Ewing’s transfer issues as two separate items 1) the Leblanc group fiasco 2) the Q headscratcher. I think when CasualHoya lists out every transfer is stupid cause none of the others guys really mattered. Lastly I’m annoyed by the GM discussion as folks are mixing coaching and GM (which I think of as recruiting only) into the same argumentative positions. The only thing you can grade a coach on GM objectively is how well the incoming class is ranked compared to our peers. Ewing is currently still drawing highly ranked talent relative to his peers. We aren’t going to feel that right away it is going to take 1-2 to realize this classes potential just like it took a couple years to realize the pain once Pats first class I 100% agree that listing out all the transfers isn't productive. There's definitely a difference between Berger transferring and Wahab transferring. But a few points I'd counter: 1. I think summarizing a coach's demise to one recruit is a little reductive, whether it be Josh Hart or Kaiden Rice. This roster is not one player away from competence unfortunately. Does Josh Hart become the Nova version of Josh Hart if he's in Gtown system / development program? We'll never know but I find it hard to believe he would change the entire trajectory of the program. 2. I'll agree the year 3 transfers had a huge impact on the program. I argued at the end of season 3 if we're keeping Ewing, and it was absolutely fair to let him try and reboot after harsh lessons learned, then you had to give him two full years to see where we are. Complaining when we were bad at the beginning of last year felt unnecessary, after losing that much of a core to transfers. Those two years are almost up, and the results and outlook just aren't where they need to be. 3. If we're just looking at recruiting, I would say the results have been fine, not the reason we're failing but I'm not so sure it's some massive outperformance across the five years. But either way, looking at recruiting only and discounting retention and player development seems like cherry picking. I don't love the GM analogy, but that would be akin to judging a GM on drafts only and ignoring free agency. Bottom line: James Akinjo, Mac McClung, Josh LeBlanc, and Qudus Wahab all thought it was better for them to continue their college careers elsewhere (I don't care about the rest of the transfers). You can try and explain away each individual decision however you want. People just dismiss the Akinjo / Mac issues, but what were they each told as part of the recruiting process? Did Ewing do everything he could to help them coexist? It was obvious they should be separated as much as possible and come together basically for starts / ends of games. At the time I said they should be divided like the Rockets Paul / Harden schedule. Give them each time to run the show, and pick the spots for them to play together. Ewing did the opposite, forced them into a situation neither wanted, and then Mac still wanted to leave even after Akinjo was gone. Everyone knew at the time that Q leaving didn't make sense. But what relationship did you have with the player that you couldn't show him how bad a decision it was. Blame the "handler", what's your relationship with the "handler". If you knew he had bad influences in his circle you should've considered that when you recruited him. Josh looked like a markedly worse player in year 2, partly leading to him falling out of the rotation and looking to transfer. Where was the program in helping him develop between freshman and sophomore year. Did we help him maximize his talent? 4. On the Xs and Os coaching front, I don't think he's as terrible as some will make it out to be, but I don't think he's getting the most out of talent, ie are they overachieving. I personally don't have much of an issue with the offense. Sure it's a little repetitive at times, and maybe isn't the perfect fit for this version of the roster. Our offense is currently ranked like 126th...that seems more or less in line with the talent level. Our defense is ranked 250th...that can simply never happen. If anything, I would expect a coach to be able to influence defense more than offense. There's only so much he can do on offense, guys have to make shots. On defense, there's so much more we can be doing. Even if he was trying all sorts of different things and they didnt work, at least we could say he was getting creative and trying to maximize talent. He's running the same thing, every game, expecting a different result, and then blames the players and doesn't even acknowledge he needs to re-evaluate the approach. TL; DR: It's really difficult to blame the roster as lacking talent and somehow absolve Ewing of the current talent on the roster. There's a stubbornness to everything that gives you little hope to think he'd try something different in the future. I desperately tried to give Ewing credit for the defensive improvement last year, however brief it was. I said whether he could retain that improvement would define his tenure here. We responded with the worst defense in the history of our modern era. I have no reason to believe next year would be better, which is where I was with JT3 and think it's probably time to move in a different direction. I hope it's amicable and done in a way that lets us honor Ewing for his contributions to building the program. 1. You make a fair point it’s not just one player. It has just always weighed on my mind that a future all Americans first choice was the Hoyas who is from DC and we passed on him for a role player who never performed. 2. I think you missed my point. I’m trying to convey that the sting of the mackinjo-Leblanc leaving is going to sting the most in what would be their upperclassmen seasons. I think complaining this year is actually more unnecessary than last year if that makes sense. If they were going to fire Ewing the right time to do it would have been immediately after Akinjo left as to not waste time rebuilding just to rebuild again. 3. I don’t think Leblanc had a choice. I think he wanted to stay and was upset that he wasn’t given a second chance after making some mistakes. 4. I often wish we could go back to whatever Ewing’s practices were like before and during last year’s BET. It stands out in my mind cause all of a sudden guys like Pickett and Harris were clicking on defense and found a new level of intensity. Maybe it was simply the “we started from the bottom” mantra mixed with a little confidence that was stoked by winning. We need that more than ever right now. Install some confidence and get that chip on the shoulder working and good things will come.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 11, 2022 10:04:45 GMT -5
1. You make a fair point it’s not just one player. It has just always weighed on my mind that a future all Americans first choice was the Hoyas who is from DC and we passed on him for a role player who never performed. 2. I think you missed my point. I’m trying to convey that the sting of the mackinjo-Leblanc leaving is going to sting the most in what would be their upperclassmen seasons. I think complaining this year is actually more unnecessary than last year if that makes sense. If they were going to fire Ewing the right time to do it would have been immediately after Akinjo left as to not waste time rebuilding just to rebuild again. 3. I don’t think Leblanc had a choice. I think he wanted to stay and was upset that he wasn’t given a second chance after making some mistakes. 4. I often wish we could go back to whatever Ewing’s practices were like before and during last year’s BET. It stands out in my mind cause all of a sudden guys like Pickett and Harris were clicking on defense and found a new level of intensity. Maybe it was simply the “we started from the bottom” mantra mixed with a little confidence that was stoked by winning. We need that more than ever right now. Install some confidence and get that chip on the shoulder working and good things will come. Fair points, agree to disagree on some but not an unreasonable view. If Ewing stayed aboard but we had more transfers then I assume you'd be where most of us are, and i think it's too big of a risk to let that play out but i get it. My opinion on LeBlanc is he and Akinjo chose to leave together before anything became public on LeBlanc / Gardner / Alexander legal issues. It's used as the retroactive argument for him leaving. If you want to argue Ewing had him in doghouse but wasn't kicking him off team, that's a slippery slope of player management to an extent. And he continued to let Alexander and Gardner play after LeBlanc and Akinjo left, so who knows? It's all kinda moot at this point, but again I think there's something fundamental when you have this many core transfers, ignoring the irrelevant / normal ones that every program has. And waiting any longer to see if that's really a one-off (or four-off) is too high when he's showing he can't overachieve with the current talent.
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,222
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Post by hoya73 on Feb 11, 2022 12:04:07 GMT -5
What's done is done, as far as I am concerned, and it's time for Ewing to bow out, but... if LeBlanc, Gardner and Alexander would have made a difference by staying, that is in effect saying Ewing is a better player development coach than...all the other coaches they went to play for. What mark have any of them made at another school? Akinjo transfer a different story.
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beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,475
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Post by beenaround on Feb 11, 2022 13:37:53 GMT -5
What's done is done, as far as I am concerned, and it's time for Ewing to bow out, but... if LeBlanc, Gardner and Alexander would have made a difference by staying, that is in effect saying Ewing is a better player development coach than...all the other coaches they went to play for. What mark have any of them made at another school? Akinjo transfer a different story. Mac was also very good with Texas Tech, a Top 20 team.
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iowa80
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,402
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Post by iowa80 on Feb 11, 2022 13:54:03 GMT -5
What's done is done, as far as I am concerned, and it's time for Ewing to bow out, but... if LeBlanc, Gardner and Alexander would have made a difference by staying, that is in effect saying Ewing is a better player development coach than...all the other coaches they went to play for. What mark have any of them made at another school? Akinjo transfer a different story. Mac was also very good with Texas Tech, a Top 20 team. Looking behind the 15.5 ppg average, he shot .419, .468 on twos and .343 on threes. He averaged 2.1 assists per game to 1.9 turnovers.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,459
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Post by TC on Feb 11, 2022 14:34:52 GMT -5
Mac was also very good with Texas Tech, a Top 20 team. Looking behind the 15.5 ppg average, he shot .419, .468 on twos and .343 on threes. He averaged 2.1 assists per game to 1.9 turnovers. All of those stats were way better than what he did at Georgetown, which supports the point that maybe Ewing is not that great at player development.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Feb 11, 2022 15:10:08 GMT -5
Looking behind the 15.5 ppg average, he shot .419, .468 on twos and .343 on threes. He averaged 2.1 assists per game to 1.9 turnovers. All of those stats were way better than what he did at Georgetown, which supports the point that maybe Ewing is not that great at player development. Mac posted practically the same stats his sophomore year at G-town as he did his junior year at Texas Tech. Akinjo posted similar numbers at Arizona. LeBlanc's stats declined once he got to LSU. Have a look at Q's numbers with the terps. Narratives are one thing, facts are facts.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 11, 2022 18:08:00 GMT -5
I am not an "insider" -- just a longtime Hoya alumnus/basketball nut who knows a little (but not as much as others on this board). With that caveat, I am fairly confident that (1) Patrick Ewing is not ignorant -- he knows it's over and that it's just a matter of scripting his exit and controlling the optics, and (2) those conversations are already happening and there may even be an outline of the basic terms of the divorce. Plenty of reasons to disagree, I guess, but my hunch is what it is FWIW.
I don't know what I'm going to watch the rest of the season -- I'm not really into the World Poker Tour.
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