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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 9:19:20 GMT -5
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 26, 2022 9:19:20 GMT -5
The level of anger is baffling to me. If you do not like being a fan, do not get angry and attack. Vote with your feet and find something else to do. This mindset always confuses me. Like the people that say move somewhere else if you are mad about election results. If you care about something, why not express suggestions, criticisms, frustrations, etc. instead of being unconditionally supportive? And there is where we see a fundamental difference. In my view, being a citizen of a country is very different than being a fan. As a citizen, I have both rights and responsibilities. As a fan, my role is unilateral: to support the program. The program owes me NOTHING. It is there for me to enjoy and support. If I am no longer enjoying being a fan, and I no longer want to support the program, I should walk away. As bad as things are right now, I could go through fifty more years like this one and still be proud and happy to be a Hoya fan. So that is not a problem for me. But, others may feel differently. They should walk away and do something else. If they want to enact change, then they need to get hired at GU or donate enough money so that they have a seat at the table for those decisions. Otherwise, they should not direct their energy toward attacking a program they claim to support.
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 9:20:50 GMT -5
Post by tafkashfsee on Jan 26, 2022 9:20:50 GMT -5
I beg to differ that the kids don't see Prov, Seton Hall and Xavier as more attractive. The proof is in the pudding if you ask me. Those schools have invested waaaay more over the years into program, in my mind, and they haven't had too much drop off from recruiting high performing high school basketball players over those years. I think we have had lulls in our recruitment and remember how hard Coach Ewing had to work to get Akinjo and Mac. Also, remember we didn't even have a point guard before he convinced those two young men to join Georgetown. I remember being scared for Pat because he didn't have a quarterback coming into the job and I was so happy when Akinjo said yes and was elated also when Mac said yes. I would say at the end of the JTIII days, it was hard to get good kids to come over to Georgetown. In my mind, there was a stigma with recruiting because of the Princeton offense. That stigma carried over into Patrick Ewing's era and I believe made it very difficult to get high school kids to want to come and play at Georgetown. So as a result, Patrick has had to have a bunch of two star guys to help build up his program with a few four star guys sprinkled in. So by virtue of your argument, has Ewing been a failure over 5 years given his inability to improve the attractiveness of Georgetown to even the levels of SHU or PC, as you are claiming are more desirable than our program currently? I don't believe Ewing has been a failure. Think about what he has had to endure with the mass exodus of key players, the fact that the best kids are not coming to Georgetown (even the locals), guys who were going to be the focal point of the team only to leave (Mac, Q). Think about the unfortunate injuries to our current roster along with Covid along with the roster shakeup after our key transfer was kicked out of school. Think about all of that and then ask yourself, what is left for Ewing in terms of a team. This is not the NBA, where you can trade for players and get better. You pretty much have to work with what you got. Now after thinking about all of that, take Ewing out of the equation and substitute another coach. Do you think another coach would have fared any better? I don't think so. These upheavals didn't happen at SHU or PC. Instead, these schools got fifth year players because of the bonus Covid year. We didn't even get that! LOL! Coach Ewing is a very good coach that has found himself in a very unfortunate set of circumstances. Those circumstances should be weighed against his record at Georgetown. If he or the program decides to move on, I am pretty sure that he would be more than successful at his next gig given the circumstances are right or normal.
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hoyas212
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 324
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Post by hoyas212 on Jan 26, 2022 9:47:52 GMT -5
This mindset always confuses me. Like the people that say move somewhere else if you are mad about election results. If you care about something, why not express suggestions, criticisms, frustrations, etc. instead of being unconditionally supportive? And there is where we see a fundamental difference. In my view, being a citizen of a country is very different than being a fan. As a citizen, I have both rights and responsibilities. As a fan, my role is unilateral: to support the program. The program owes me NOTHING. It is there for me to enjoy and support. If I am no longer enjoying being a fan, and I no longer want to support the program, I should walk away. As bad as things are right now, I could go through fifty more years like this one and still be proud and happy to be a Hoya fan. So that is not a problem for me. But, others may feel differently. They should walk away and do something else. If they want to enact change, then they need to get hired at GU or donate enough money so that they have a seat at the table for those decisions. Otherwise, they should not direct their energy toward attacking a program they claim to support. Never heard of someone thinking a fan should unilaterally support a program. Every pro sports franchise or NCAA program with any semblance of a passionate fan base gets subjected to boos/criticisms/anger etc when they are woefully under performing expectations. If that wasn't the case, the salaries and scholarships wouldn't be what they are. I would also argue that alumni, students, donors, other University stakeholders do have rights and responsibilities. And you don't need to get hired at GU or donate Board of Director money to enact change, see the planned Esherick Red Square protest.
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bluegray79
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,099
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Post by bluegray79 on Jan 26, 2022 9:51:41 GMT -5
I'm glad this thread was created - thank you.
We are a special bunch who spend hours messaging and venting about Hoya basketball. If we weren't passionate, if we didn't care, if we didn't want the best for these players and coaches and this program that means something personal and important for each of us, we could look elsewhere and leave this behind. Given who we all are, that's not going to happen, and that's a good thing.
Where we fall short in our posts is when our opinions cross over from talking about the program and games into the personal, where we feel the need to snipe and attack as part of our comments. If creating a separate thread that allowed posters to express issues they have with other posters -- and thus keep it out of the basketball conversation -- that would be great. Those who want to go there can do so, and those who want to stick to the games and and program can focus there. That seems to have been tried, but I don't know if it had a good enough chance to be set up and followed consistently. Maybe HoyaTalk admin and some of the veteran posters can put their heads together and make that work.
Mostly, though, this is not rocket science, right? We're suppose to be the adults in the room, so let's make this work because who else would listen to us and where else can we go to find other insightful and passionate Hoya basketball fans to vent to and learn from? I'm pretty sure for some of us, this venue is a lifesaver to our marriages and family relationships.
Final thought: we might have all sorts of good reasons to react to comments made by someone who wants to provoke or just plain be a jerk to get under our skin. There is, however, one reason why we shouldn't take the bait and leave it alone: because when we snipe back and get ugly ourselves, we become no better than they are -- don't become the thing you hate.
Stay well, fellow posters. Hoya Saxa!
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:00:14 GMT -5
The fact of the matter is, and a lot of people here on Hoyatalk don't want to either face it or admit it, Georgetown is no longer coveted by the best high school basketball players anymore. Heck, even our own local kids think of Georgetown as an after thought. No matter how you slice it, you have to have some of the best high school kids matriculating through your program on a year to year basis if you want to be one of the best programs in the country. This is no slight on the kids that we have on the team because they are great and I am very proud of them. But let's face it guys, we've lost a lot of recruiting wars of some of the best players over the years. Thank god we were able to get Aminu, Akinjo, Pickett and Mac because we would have been in worst shape. This is no reflection on Patrick Ewing and staff. It is where Georgetown is right now with high school kids. I put Mac in my list because even though he wasn't at least a four star players like the other guys, he was definitely a four star player that didn't get the recognition as such. Georgetown is no longer coveted because of the performance on the floor, starting from embarrassing post-seasons under JT3. Top recruits comprised of 17 years old kids who think they are the best players in the world do not want to join a program that has become a laughing stock. Simple solution to winning these recruiting wars? Actually winning the games throughout the regular and post-season This has been proven as the last time we made it to Sweet 16 and FF with Jeff Green, we won a bunch of recruiting wars with the MCD AA level players, ranged from Greg Monroe (former #1 player of the year in his class), Austin Freeman, Chris Wright (both McD AA), Jason Clark (all met player of the year), etc. Let me put it this way; if we had been winning, we would have gotten a lot of the players from the opposing teams that have torched us and will be torching us (can't wait how Cam Whitmore from our backyard will be torching us from Villanova for the next 3 years)
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 26, 2022 10:00:19 GMT -5
And there is where we see a fundamental difference. In my view, being a citizen of a country is very different than being a fan. As a citizen, I have both rights and responsibilities. As a fan, my role is unilateral: to support the program. The program owes me NOTHING. It is there for me to enjoy and support. If I am no longer enjoying being a fan, and I no longer want to support the program, I should walk away. As bad as things are right now, I could go through fifty more years like this one and still be proud and happy to be a Hoya fan. So that is not a problem for me. But, others may feel differently. They should walk away and do something else. If they want to enact change, then they need to get hired at GU or donate enough money so that they have a seat at the table for those decisions. Otherwise, they should not direct their energy toward attacking a program they claim to support. Never heard of someone thinking a fan should unilaterally support a program. Every pro sports franchise or NCAA program with any semblance of a passionate fan base gets subjected to boos/criticisms/anger etc when they are woefully under performing expectations. If that wasn't the case, the salaries and scholarships wouldn't be what they are. I would also argue that alumni, students, donors, other University stakeholders do have rights and responsibilities. And you don't need to get hired at GU or donate Board of Director money to enact change, see the planned Esherick Red Square protest. I supported Coach Esherick and was an adamant opponent of the attacks on him- same with JT III. We will have to agree to disagree here. I want GU to do things differently - their own way- and still win. I think that can happen, but it will involve moments of loss and pain. I am very tolerant of that, but understand that others are not. I think the best thing to do at that point is to find other pursuits.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,591
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 26, 2022 10:14:04 GMT -5
Yes! Others are noticing: Respect all posters following the rules even if you don’t agree with them. You do you. Left with JT3’s final, Gucci contract… I'll do me.
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 10:18:52 GMT -5
Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:18:52 GMT -5
This mindset always confuses me. Like the people that say move somewhere else if you are mad about election results. If you care about something, why not express suggestions, criticisms, frustrations, etc. instead of being unconditionally supportive? And there is where we see a fundamental difference. In my view, being a citizen of a country is very different than being a fan. As a citizen, I have both rights and responsibilities. As a fan, my role is unilateral: to support the program. The program owes me NOTHING. It is there for me to enjoy and support. If I am no longer enjoying being a fan, and I no longer want to support the program, I should walk away. As bad as things are right now, I could go through fifty more years like this one and still be proud and happy to be a Hoya fan. So that is not a problem for me. But, others may feel differently. They should walk away and do something else. If they want to enact change, then they need to get hired at GU or donate enough money so that they have a seat at the table for those decisions. Otherwise, they should not direct their energy toward attacking a program they claim to support.Interesting - so you acknowledge that we can have different opinions, yet you are telling us to walk away. I am making donations to GU - don't know if that is enough money to get me a seat at the table. Out of curiosity, how much money do you think I should be donating to the school to have my voice heard? 1M enough? 3M? And If I donate such amount of money, do you think the school would actually allow me to have a seat at the table to make decisions? If that is a proven fact, might as well create a huge fund based on all these posters venting; sure it would come out to be quite amount
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,356
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 10:19:08 GMT -5
Post by prhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:19:08 GMT -5
Yes! Others are noticing: Respect all posters following the rules even if you don’t agree with them. You do you. Left with JT3’s final, Gucci contract… I'll do me. I know you’ll do you, but be mindful others are noticing you say one thing and do another.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:22:14 GMT -5
Never heard of someone thinking a fan should unilaterally support a program. Every pro sports franchise or NCAA program with any semblance of a passionate fan base gets subjected to boos/criticisms/anger etc when they are woefully under performing expectations. If that wasn't the case, the salaries and scholarships wouldn't be what they are. I would also argue that alumni, students, donors, other University stakeholders do have rights and responsibilities. And you don't need to get hired at GU or donate Board of Director money to enact change, see the planned Esherick Red Square protest. I supported Coach Esherick and was an adamant opponent of the attacks on him- same with JT III. We will have to agree to disagree here. I want GU to do things differently - their own way- and still win. I think that can happen, but it will involve moments of loss and pain. I am very tolerant of that, but understand that others are not. I think the best thing to do at that point is to find other pursuits. What is this 'doing things differently' and 'their own way'? Funny thing is everything at GU is done closed door, so most of us, if we are not directly associated with the program, have no idea how things are actually being done. So what makes you think what we are doing closed door is so different from the likes of doing things at Villanova? Do you have direct access to both of those programs to make a direct comparison?
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 26, 2022 10:26:48 GMT -5
I certainly do not have direct access, and you do not have to walk away if you do not want to do so. I just think that is the best thing to do if you no longer are enjoying being a fan, and if your anger outweighs your enjoyment.
I also have no idea how much money buys you a seat at the table at GU. I assume there is some level- perhaps in the seven or eight figures- at which a donor might have some influence. But maybe not.
Is there any sign that GU runs its athletic program like any other university? Does anyone seriously think that GU and Nova do things the same?
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:35:13 GMT -5
I certainly do not have direct access, and you do not have to walk away if you do not want to do so. I just think that is the best thing to do if you no longer are enjoying being a fan, and if your anger outweighs your enjoyment. I also have no idea how much money buys you a seat at the table at GU. I assume there is some level- perhaps in the seven or eight figures- at which a donor might have some influence. But maybe not. Is there any sign that GU runs its athletic program like any other university? Does anyone seriously think that GU and Nova do things the same? Sure - I respect your opinion if that's what you think. But most of us venting here have either gone to school here, and thus find some kind of deep connection to the program that cannot be ignored. Hence, we want the best outcome for the school in the way we think is best for the program. So not clear on the donation part - no problem. Depending on which signs you refer to - do we deal with handlers when we recruit players? There have been a lot of signs (posted via twitter) that may indicate we do deal with them. So suppose that Georgetown runs its athletic program like any other university, and this is what we are seeing on the floor the past few years (and no one can validate this since everything is done closed door and you don't seem to know that as well) Does it make it extra bad that we suck even though we play the same game as others?
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 10:40:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by guru on Jan 26, 2022 10:40:22 GMT -5
I know you’ll do you, but be mindful others are noticing you say one thing and do another. Are you really arguing with someone who takes time out of a busy day, every day, to try to help maintain some semblance of civility on this board? To quote Lloyd Christmas, you, sir, are deleted.
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3xhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,171
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Post by 3xhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:43:24 GMT -5
I certainly do not have direct access, and you do not have to walk away if you do not want to do so. I just think that is the best thing to do if you no longer are enjoying being a fan, and if your anger outweighs your enjoyment. I also have no idea how much money buys you a seat at the table at GU. I assume there is some level- perhaps in the seven or eight figures- at which a donor might have some influence. But maybe not. Is there any sign that GU runs its athletic program like any other university? Does anyone seriously think that GU and Nova do things the same? Sure - I respect your opinion if that's what you think. But most of us venting here have either gone to school here, and thus find some kind of deep connection to the program that cannot be ignored. Hence, we want the best outcome for the school in the way we think is best for the program. So not clear on the donation part - no problem. Depending on which signs you refer to - do we deal with handlers when we recruit players? There have been a lot of signs (posted via twitter) that may indicate we do deal with them. So suppose that Georgetown runs its athletic program like any other university, and this is what we are seeing on the floor the past few years (and no one can validate this since everything is done closed door and you don't seem to know that as well) Does it make it extra bad that we suck even though we play the same game as others? The programs are very clearly not run the same way. One is run like a high major program and the other is not. This does not mean that Villanova is ripe with NCAA violations. I never understand this elitist attitude that we have that we are the only program in the country that runs the program the right way. I am not even sure what posters are referring to when they say this. Seems like it is something that has been reiterated over the past decade to make us feel better about the slip to irrelevancy.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:44:02 GMT -5
I know you’ll do you, but be mindful others are noticing you say one thing and do another. Are you really arguing with someone who takes time out of a busy day, every day, to try to help maintain some semblance of civility on this board? To quote Lloyd Christmas, you, sir, are deleted. Now calling someone like that would be considered disrespectful. Ironic that you are being disrespectful to PR, in order to support the author who created this thread titled 'Respect'....
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 10:46:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by guru on Jan 26, 2022 10:46:42 GMT -5
Are you really arguing with someone who takes time out of a busy day, every day, to try to help maintain some semblance of civility on this board? To quote Lloyd Christmas, you, sir, are Left with JT3’s final, Gucci contract… . Now calling someone like that would be considered disrespectful. Ironic that you are being disrespectful to PR, in order to support the author who created this thread titled 'Respect'.... Ha! That’s true. OTOH, I say disrespect away! PR can disrespect me all he wants. Just saying mods have a different agenda/purpose.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,356
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Respect
Jan 26, 2022 10:47:33 GMT -5
Post by prhoya on Jan 26, 2022 10:47:33 GMT -5
I know you’ll do you, but be mindful others are noticing you say one thing and do another. Are you really arguing with someone who takes time out of a busy day, every day, to try to help maintain some semblance of civility on this board? To quote Lloyd Christmas, you, sir, are deletedLeft with JT3’s final, Gucci contract… Left with JT3’s final, Gucci contract… . And that is a violation of the HoyaTalk rules: “2. NO personal attacks on fellow posters“ Let’s see if Admin takes action. This is my 10th post under the 24-hr limit, so I’ll answer any further posts when possible.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,591
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 26, 2022 11:03:07 GMT -5
I know you’ll do you, but be mindful others are noticing you say one thing and do another. Look in your own mirror.
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