Georgetown Named in Financial Aid Antitrust Suit

[C86]

Georgetown, along with Ivies, MIT, and others, is named in a suit alleging price fixing in the award of financial aid, and by extension admissions decisions.

www.wsj.com/articles/yale-georgetown-other-top-schools-illegally-collude-to-limit-student-financial-aid-lawsuit-alleges-11641829659

Allegedly all the universities agree to use the same formula for determining financial aid, in return for the promise that their admissions decisions will be need-blind.

Here's the nub of the claim according to the WSJ:

The new lawsuit alleges that members of that group are violating federal law because they aren’t entirely need-blind. Rather, lawyers say, at least some of the schools consider financial need by giving an admission edge to children of wealthy donors. Some also weigh applicants’ finances when admitting them off the waiting list and look at finances in admission decisions for certain programs, the suit alleges.

[Nevada Hoya]

It will be interesting to follow this suit for those of us who interview students for Georgetown. We want full transparency to see that our ratings are not based on who can afford Georgetown, but by the merit these students show in the interview and in their whole application.

[iowa80]

I’m happy to see us included within the “top school” category, but can’t help but wonder how G’town, along with Yale, is a focus of the story when several Ivies, Duke, MIT, and Chicago are mentioned in a single paragraph.

[1789]

Jan 10, 2022 16:14:21 GMT -5 iowa80 said:

I’m happy to see us included within the “top school” category, but can’t help but wonder how G’town, along with Yale, is a focus of the story when several Ivies, Duke, MIT, and Chicago are mentioned in a single paragraph.

Georgetown is click bait

[hoyaguy]

Jan 10, 2022 16:14:21 GMT -5 iowa80 said:

I’m happy to see us included within the “top school” category, but can’t help but wonder how G’town, along with Yale, is a focus of the story when several Ivies, Duke, MIT, and Chicago are mentioned in a single paragraph.

Tennis, maybe to help clicks? Also with regards to the allegations, is anyone actually surprised? lol like come on let's be real if you are rich then 99% of problems don't touch you ever including college admissions/debt and colleges want that cash too so it is no shock the median incomes of elite universities are so high and they likely collude (the former Duke president all but openly admitted to violating the law in this). Also lawyer friend says likely won't be the only education related lawsuit in the next year or two towards schools in general not just the elite but if this is proven, it wouldn't hurt to compensate some people who got shortchanged by them esp after the massive tax free endowment gains while people are dying, kids are online and tuition only going up. Also it could be good to crack the facade of higher education esp that of the elite and how limited their social mobility promotion really is

[BSM]

For those who didn't click through to the WSJ article, Eric Rosen, whose firm is one of five firms representing the plaintiffs, was a prosecutor on the Varsity Blues cases.

[RusskyHoya]

This is certainly a...novel legal theory being advanced. Perhaps if this attempt fails, their next argument will be that having admissions slots for sports is evidence of not being need-blind in admissions because it requires money afford equipment and club/travel teams and to get really good.

All I'm going to say on this one is that there's a lot more to this particular lawsuit than meets the eye... especially as affirmative action is being (re)litigated all the way to the Supreme Court...

[hoyaguy]

Jan 11, 2022 23:36:19 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

This is certainly a...novel legal theory being advanced. Perhaps if this attempt fails, their next argument will be that having admissions slots for sports is evidence of not being need-blind in admissions because it requires money afford equipment and club/travel teams and to get really good.

All I'm going to say on this one is that there's a lot more to this particular lawsuit than meets the eye... especially as affirmative action is being (re)litigated all the way to the Supreme Court...

This isn't meant to be a dig but are you a lawyer? If you are, I wouldn't mind some insight. I am not but from just reading some more in depth parts of the original complaint and they have quotes from our Dean of Admissions Charles Deacon in it about Gtown using family finances to determine admissions when it came to students especially donors and had some stuff on other schools, which seems to break their specifically made anti trust exemption (their obligation to be 100% "need blind") made by the government to allow the universities to share a formula. And the suit includes stats of the undergrad student bodies based on income distribution and damn I knew most were affluent but I did not think 74% of the body are in the top 20% of families in the US and of the bottom 20%? 3.1%.... Notre Dame is even worse with 1.6% of their undergrads coming from the bottom 20% of income distribution (even if the suit fails, it serves a purpose of shining a light for some people to realize how lucky they are and how social mobility is a buzz term for many organizations). And here I thought our President was right when he said "poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids" but I guess if the schools didn't violate any laws then they simply disagree or it's just a coincidence, I jest bc I thought of this quote when I was listening to the news report on this and if you can't laugh at politicians what's the point of living 

[RusskyHoya]

Jan 12, 2022 1:18:42 GMT -5 hoyaguy said:

Jan 11, 2022 23:36:19 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

This is certainly a...novel legal theory being advanced. Perhaps if this attempt fails, their next argument will be that having admissions slots for sports is evidence of not being need-blind in admissions because it requires money afford equipment and club/travel teams and to get really good.

All I'm going to say on this one is that there's a lot more to this particular lawsuit than meets the eye... especially as affirmative action is being (re)litigated all the way to the Supreme Court...

This isn't meant to be a dig but are you a lawyer? If you are, I wouldn't mind some insight. I am not but from just reading some more in depth parts of the original complaint and they have quotes from our Dean of Admissions Charles Deacon in it about Gtown using family finances to determine admissions when it came to students especially donors and had some stuff on other schools, which seems to break their specifically made anti trust exemption (their obligation to be 100% "need blind") made by the government to allow the universities to share a formula.

I am not a lawyer, but I did work for Charlie full-time for a year and a half in my first job out of undergrad, so I know how Georgetown does admissions, including how "special interest student" admissions works, which includes the "developmental candidates" cited in the complaint.

Let me put it this way: the legal requirement, as it has always been interpreted by every university counsel of every university is that the Federal requirement forbids discrimination on the basis of ability to pay.

Giving greater weight to a candidate because their family have been generous donors in the past or may become so in the future is not legally discrimination against students on the basis of their finances for the same reason that affirmative action for BIPOC is discrimination against Whites and Asian-Americans (unless the Supreme Court decides to go to town and blow up affirmative action) or preferential admission for recruited athletes is discrimination against unathletic candidates.

[C86]

Considering wealth for development purposes seems to be an everyday thing for every charity. The one allegation that seems more problematic is using lack of financial aid need as a factor when admitting off the wait list. That is alleged too.

[DallasHoya]

Jan 12, 2022 1:51:46 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Jan 12, 2022 1:18:42 GMT -5 hoyaguy said:

This isn't meant to be a dig but are you a lawyer? If you are, I wouldn't mind some insight. I am not but from just reading some more in depth parts of the original complaint and they have quotes from our Dean of Admissions Charles Deacon in it about Gtown using family finances to determine admissions when it came to students especially donors and had some stuff on other schools, which seems to break their specifically made anti trust exemption (their obligation to be 100% "need blind") made by the government to allow the universities to share a formula.

I am not a lawyer, but I did work for Charlie full-time for a year and a half in my first job out of undergrad, so I know how Georgetown does admissions, including how "special interest student" admissions works, which includes the "developmental candidates" cited in the complaint.

Let me put it this way: the legal requirement, as it has always been interpreted by every university counsel of every university is that the Federal requirement forbids discrimination on the basis of ability to pay.

Giving greater weight to a candidate because their family have been generous donors in the past or may become so in the future is not legally discrimination against students on the basis of their finances for the same reason that affirmative action for BIPOC is discrimination against Whites and Asian-Americans (unless the Supreme Court decides to go to town and blow up affirmative action) or preferential admission for recruited athletes is discrimination against unathletic candidates.

How old is Charlie Deacon? He was dean of admissions when I was admitted almost 45 years ago.

[RusskyHoya]

[Source] DallasHoya said:

How old is Charlie Deacon? He was dean of admissions when I was admitted almost 45 years ago.

To quote/paraphrase Charlie himself: "When I leave this job, they'll have to wheel me out. The only question is whether I'll still be alive or not."

He's Class of '64, so assume ~22 + 58 = 80 years old.

[Nevada Hoya]

Yeah, Charlie is even older than me.

[hoyaguy]

Jan 12, 2022 1:51:46 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Jan 12, 2022 1:18:42 GMT -5 hoyaguy said:

This isn't meant to be a dig but are you a lawyer? If you are, I wouldn't mind some insight. I am not but from just reading some more in depth parts of the original complaint and they have quotes from our Dean of Admissions Charles Deacon in it about Gtown using family finances to determine admissions when it came to students especially donors and had some stuff on other schools, which seems to break their specifically made anti trust exemption (their obligation to be 100% "need blind") made by the government to allow the universities to share a formula.

I am not a lawyer, but I did work for Charlie full-time for a year and a half in my first job out of undergrad, so I know how Georgetown does admissions, including how "special interest student" admissions works, which includes the "developmental candidates" cited in the complaint.

Let me put it this way: the legal requirement, as it has always been interpreted by every university counsel of every university is that the Federal requirement forbids discrimination on the basis of ability to pay.

Giving greater weight to a candidate because their family have been generous donors in the past or may become so in the future is not legally discrimination against students on the basis of their finances for the same reason that affirmative action for BIPOC is discrimination against Whites and Asian-Americans (unless the Supreme Court decides to go to town and blow up affirmative action) or preferential admission for recruited athletes is discrimination against unathletic candidates.

Interesting thanks for the insight and take, immediately after reading I personally did not equate affirmative action or athletes to this as those are/can providing social mobility and benefits for people as a whole (like being an athlete at college saved my dad when he immigrated here with its resources/aid and it helped both parties) while looking at wealth functions purely to help universities and does penalize people not in the upper classes as seen in the crazy wealth distribution of the student bodies meanwhile tuition costs have just grown absurdly and the law may not see it that way but that is just my thoughts. It is intriguing with supreme court possibly taking those cases. And while their fin aid is insanely good considering their resources, apparently Harvard was cited that it did not join this group as it “would have yielded financial-aid packages that were smaller than what Harvard wanted to award.” along with other schools not joining for similar reasons. Wouldn't shock me if "nothing was there" (as in admissions doesn't directly check everyone's numbers but can just know your wealth based on high school and zip code so "it's fine") but will continue to follow.

[SSHoya]

Georgetown University touts itself as one of the first institutions to admit undergraduates without any consideration of their ability to pay, a decision the Jesuit school says brings in students with wide-ranging experiences and backgrounds to the benefit of the university.

The lawsuit cites past interviews from Georgetown’s longtime director of admissions, Charles Deacon, with the student newspaper and other media. In one instance, Deacon acknowledged in a 2015 article in The Hoya that families’ wealth could tip admissions decisions.

www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/01/16/georgetown-lawsuit-financial-aid/

[hoyaguy]

Jan 16, 2022 10:35:53 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Georgetown University touts itself as one of the first institutions to admit undergraduates without any consideration of their ability to pay, a decision the Jesuit school says brings in students with wide-ranging experiences and backgrounds to the benefit of the university.

The lawsuit cites past interviews from Georgetown’s longtime director of admissions, Charles Deacon, with the student newspaper and other media. In one instance, Deacon acknowledged in a 2015 article in The Hoya that families’ wealth could tip admissions decisions.

www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/01/16/georgetown-lawsuit-financial-aid/

Yeah and I was visiting a friend for the long weekend and their roommate is a law student so not fully fledged good source but they attended one of the schools and read the anti trust exemption as written in the government publication and it says “It shall not be unlawful under the antitrust laws for 2 or more institutions of higher education at which all students admitted are admitted on a need-blind basis”

And that is what she highlighted “all students admitted” as in everyone needs to be considered on the need blind basis so by that logic the fact they have wealth influence even a few of the students breaks this code and as mentioned Deacon. Maybe there is more to it or people look at it another way but it just seems like this “could get dicey with the right circumstances” especially the wait list part of the suit and the exception expires this coming September actually

[hilltopper2000]

I'm not an antitrust lawyer, but I assume the schools will contend that in fact, no students are admitted because they are not seeking financial aid. Rather, some are admitted because of past or future donations from their parents. Yes, someone who can afford to donate millions of dollars isn't looking for financial aid, but that's not the reason they were admitted. Given that these admissions practices are as old as the universities themselves, it is hard to imagine that when they signed up for this scheme they believed it prohibited such practices--or that Congress had intended preclude them, as it would have made its intent clear, given the sweeping implications.

[SSHoya]

Jan 18, 2022 16:55:23 GMT -5 hilltopper2000 said:

I'm not an antitrust lawyer, but I assume the schools will contend that in fact, no students are admitted because they are not seeking financial aid. Rather, some are admitted because of past or future donations from their parents. Yes, someone who can afford to donate millions of dollars isn't looking for financial aid, but that's not the reason they were admitted. Given that these admissions practices are as old as the universities themselves, it is hard to imagine that when they signed up for this scheme they believed it prohibited such practices--or that Congress had intended preclude them, as it would have made its intent clear, given the sweeping implications.

FWIW, a former colleague of mine and an alum of the DOJ Antitrust Division didn't think there was much merit to the suit but that was only his shoot-from-the-hip opinion.

[RusskyHoya]

[C86]

The Justice Department has filed a Statement of Interest in favor of the plaintiffs in the financial aid antitrust suit brought against Georgetown and a 15 other colleges.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-07/us-backs-student-antitrust-suit-over-elite-college-financial-aid