State of Hoya Football Program 2021

[puppydog100]

With the start of the 2021 season just a week away, may be a good time to review and discuss the current status of the Hoya football program.

Since the beginning of this year, only fourteen (14) individuals have posted to the Hoya Saxa chat board, and most of the posts dominated by just 4 people.

So my first question, what is the status of the Gridiron Club.  I have not received any communication in months.  Are they still fund raising?  How many contributors?  How much has the Gridiron club raised over the past three (3) years?  How large is the alumni / friends base of support?

Second, will the Hoyas remain in the Patriot League upon the expiration of their current contract?

Third, what are the program's goals. to be competitive, or just to field a football team?

Fourth, what can we do to help advance the goals of the program?  Personally, I am only interested in contributing if the plan is to be competitive, not just a "club" type program.

Your thoughts!

[RusskyHoya]

Aug 27, 2021 11:33:37 GMT -5 puppydog100 said:

With the start of the 2021 season just a week away, may be a good time to review and discuss the current status of the Hoya football program.

Since the beginning of this year, only fourteen (14) individuals have posted to the Hoya Saxa chat board, and most of the posts dominated by just 4 people.

So my first question, what is the status of the Gridiron Club.  I have not received any communication in months.  Are they still fund raising?  How many contributors?  How much has the Gridiron club raised over the past three (3) years?  How large is the alumni / friends base of support?

Second, will the Hoyas remain in the Patriot League upon the expiration of their current contract?

Third, what are the program's goals. to be competitive, or just to field a football team?

Fourth, what can we do to help advance the goals of the program?  Personally, I am only interested in contributing if the plan is to be competitive, not just a "club" type program.

Your thoughts!

For starters, keep in mind that this message board, like most others, are for huge dorks like myself. Most of the football alums and associates don't really want to be slumming it on here with the nerds, they're out working 80 hours a week in investment banking and going yachting and crushing mint juleps at the track or whatever (I'm being facetious...but it is also my experience that even at the top flight programs like Alabama and Auburn, it's mostly the rabble who spend all their time on message boards; the power broker wine-and-cheese crowd ain't got time for that).

Q1: The sports-specific alumni clubs are pretty much entirely dependent on the time and goodwill of volunteers. When either of those is sapped...the activity levels tend to go down.

My sense is that most of the activity among football alums and associated boosters takes place outside the formal structure of the Gridiron Club. It's more like a whole bunch of email threads between people in the Acela Corridor. That's just a hunch, though.

As far as fundraising goes, the last time I recall seeing a fundraising update from Lee Reed with actual numbers in it was for FY18, where football was listed as being at 53% toward their goal with "$176,912 to go!" If that number is 47% of the goal, then their annual goal was $376,409. Maybe with inflation that's crept up closer to $400k...still not a whole heck of a lot for a football program. Of course, the biggest single expense is financial aid for players, which at Georgetown would mostly not be part of the football budget the way it is at a scholarship program.

Q2: DFW has spilled an ocean-full of electronic ink on this topic, but in the end, the University's calculus appears unchanged: the Patriot League is the least-bad option. So no, I don't expect us to go anywhere else.

Q3. Here I would separate "reason for being" from "goals." The program's chief reasons for being are:
A. Tradition/because it already exists (we'd never start up a program today if we didn't already have one
B. To fill the same roles on campus that the football programs at the Ivies do (some of these are obvious - a Homecoming game! Some are perhaps less so, e.g., for schools self-conscious about the diversity of their student, athletics programs offer a means of matriculating students outside the typical mold)

Being competitive in the Patriot League is certainly A goal. But it's not like we're going to go all-out to meet it and consider anything short of a PL title to be a failure. So given the two choices you laid out, it's somewhere in between "be competitive" and "just field a team," although it is probably much closer to the latter than the former.

Q4: It's obviously not a "'club' type program" - DFW recently noted elsewhere how many more paid coaches there are today, as compared to the Bob Benson days. Club teams don't have facilities like the Thompson Center and Cooper Field (also mentioned sometime in the not-too-distant past was how the new football locker rooms represent a 1,000% improvement in quality compared to what came before).

All those things add up and should contribute to incremental improvements in competitiveness. We're not going scholarship, so I would say the best way to contribute is to be realistic about that and then look for other areas, big and small (e.g., just got an email the other day asking to volunteer to do informational interviews and the like with current players), where time and money can move the needle.

[puppydog100]

Russkyhoya,

Thank you for your insight and perspective.

The problem with treading water is that you will eventually drown unless thrown a lifeline.

I would certainly we willing to support the cause, assuming higher goals and expectations.

My best wishes to the 2021 Hoya team. GO HOYAS!!!!

[RusskyHoya]

Here's them showing off the new locker room, incidentally:

[puppydog100]

Thank you Mr. Cooper.

[Problem of Dog]

Aug 31, 2021 9:22:27 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Here's them showing off the new locker room, incidentally:

Seriously, the old locker rooms were probably the worst football locker rooms that any of the players on the team had ever had. They were an absolute an embarrassment, which we only got to share part time because lacrosse got them in the spring! And cross country had a different section of the same locker room with more space because they had fewer athletes!

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 6, 2021 20:14:20 GMT -5 Problem of Dog said:

Seriously, the old locker rooms were probably the worst football locker rooms that any of the players on the team had ever had. They were an absolute an embarrassment, which we only got to share part time because lacrosse got them in the spring! And cross country had a different section of the same locker room with more space because they had fewer athletes!

When McDonough Gymnasium was built, only one team (basketball) needed locker rooms. Baseball took over the room in the spring, track competed off campus. The minor sports (tennis, golf, swimming, rifle) were on their own.

For the better part of 60 years, Georgetown went from six to 29 sports, added 300 women as student-athletes, and the best GU did was build a Rubik's cube inside the gym instead of addressing the facilities problem. Remember, John Thompson's office was once a dorm room.

Had they considered adding locker rooms to Yates Field House upon its construction, it might have helped, but Athletics was doing its best to sell Yates as a recreational facility and not an intercollegiate one (college swimming excepted) to get the student fee approved that paid for the building. When the next intramural facility is built in, what...2050 there may be a push for more intercollegiate space for the teams that don't fit in the Thompson Center nor under Cooper Field.

Sadly, in some ways Cooper Field became more a locker room facility with seats on top that the imaginative plans of 20 years ago.

[hoyaguy]

I don’t know much about football and I can get that the idea of Harvard even without scholarships is appealing to players but what is wrong with gtown football. It was cool to see a pretty full stands today but jeez like what is needed to fix make this better like seeing the stands that wanted to be built specifically the double tier looked incredible but we gotta work with what we got so will this help recruiting from now on or are we just gonna keep going like this

[RusskyHoya]

Figures as good of a thread as any to post this in:

[RusskyHoya]

Also interesting:

[hsaxon]

Oct 25, 2021 19:48:57 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Also interesting:

Is there any realistic hope for GU to have a very good Patriot league team / program, i.e., challenge for the title most years?

If not, should Georgetown have a football team / program?

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 14, 2021 21:31:03 GMT -5 hsaxon said:

Is there any realistic hope for GU to have a very good Patriot league team / program, i.e., challenge for the title most years? If not, should Georgetown have a football team / program?

No and yes.

In the current alignment of PL scholarships and its restrictive admissions policies (both of which are a net negative for Georgetown), GU is not challenging for the PL title. That said, Georgetown could certainly improve its program by getting a waiver from, or out altogether, from the PL admissions rules which force minimum test scores above that of the likes of Duke or even Vanderbilt to curry favor with the Ivy League. Instead, Georgetown's SAT range aligns with Cornell and Brown, not Fordham and Holy Cross. Those schools get kids Georgetown cannot.

Football is the only sport at Georgetown which must compete with this artificial SAT issue. Dropping it would bring immediate results; however, the University does not feel inclined to fight for this within the PL, so that's a roadblock that is in play.

Scholarships would help, of course. Give Sgarlata 63 grants in aid and this is likely a top 25 contender. But that's not in GU's plans either and he's publicly said he's OK with it.

Georgetown is ranked in the top 25 this season in offense but the defense is lacking. Other years, the defense is strong and the offense is weak. It's about depth, and the lack of recruitable depth has haunted this team for years. Georgetown football 2021 is where Georgetown soccer was in 1991--no depth, no forward motion.

[puppydog100]

If GU is going to field a team in the PL, we need to go all in to be competitive.

Sgarlata is okay with the status quo because GU is the only institution that would provide him the opportunity to be head coach.

Looking forward to many years of mediocrity to come.

[teddy16]

GU fixes the academic disadvantages or quit the PL and become independent if necessary. PL teams and some ivies will still play us. Davidson, Marist, Dayton etc. Otherwise, we should consider dropping the sport altogether. The program does not have strong identification within the GU community, the leadership is not taking any remedial action to turn this dire situation around and we are perpetual losers. What’s the point? To lose well?? Enough already

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 16, 2021 22:59:45 GMT -5 teddy16 said:

GU fixes the academic disadvantages or quit the PL and become independent if necessary. PL teams and some ivies will still play us. Davidson, Marist, Dayton etc. Otherwise, we should consider dropping the sport altogether. The program does not have strong identification within the GU community, the leadership is not taking any remedial action to turn this dire situation around and we are perpetual losers. What’s the point? To lose well?? Enough already

I don't get the "win or drop" argument. How many GU sports would be left with that argument? Five, six? Soccer would never have made it to the 2000's under that formula, much less lacrosse (no winning seasons from 1970-1989). Are you suggesting cutting women's basketball (7-40 in last two years), softball (never had a winning season), baseball (last winning season in 1986), swimming, tennis, etc.? Of course not.

Football is the only sport at GU that must recruit based on SAT ranges. If men's basketball were told they could only accept two players with an SAT between 1250-1299, two at 1300-1349, two at 1349-1400, and the rest above 1400 (solely as an example only), how would they fare on a year to year basis? How would you judge a coaching staff's record with that group of kids?

That said, Georgetown can and must aim higher than the likes of Davidson, Marist, Dayton, etc. Give the coaches players that can compete, and then Georgetown maybe could compete alongside a Villanova, a Richmond, a Rhode Island, or even a Delaware. No one is suggesting Georgetown playing Boston College (even though Colgate did this year) or Air Force (even though Lafayette did) or Army (even though Bucknell did) or Nebraska (even though Fordham did) or even UConn (even though Holy Cross did, and beat them). But if all Georgetown aspires to is Columbia and two MEAC schools out of conference, what's the measure of "strong identification within the GU community" ever going to be? If men's soccer played Mary Washington and Randolph-Macon instead of UCLA and Virginia, what would we say about their brand identification? But none of this is possible without consistent measures of support and not a sense of defeatism as exhibited above.

In 1972, Georgetown ranked 31st of 32 Catholic schools in Division I basketball over a 25 year period--one of only two schools cumulatively under .500 from 1947-1972, with not a single post-game win. The only school worse than Georgetown (Loyola-New Orleans) dropped basketball entirely. Should we have as well?

[hoyas212]

Would it make sense for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League? Or are there financial aid or travel cost considerations that make that prohibitive?  It seems the commitment to football from those schools is far more commensurate with Georgetown's than the scholarship Patriot League schools.  Another Big East school, Butler, already plays in the Pioneer League.  Admittedly, not sure what is meant by Jack's "ethos and culture" comments regarding football, but don't see how being in the Patriot instead of the Pioneer would be applicable.  It's not like the Patriot League brings an Ivy League-like cache to the program/university.  With no scholarships or league mandated admissions requirements, Georgetown should routinely be at the top of the standings of the Pioneer League with an annual chance of going to the playoffs.

I don't think being part of the Pioneer League as opposed to the Patriot League would cost GU any recruits (barring any financial aid issues that I'm unaware of).  Games vs. Lafayette aren't much more appealing than Davidson to a high school kid, and you have a better chance of making the playoffs from the Pioneer League over the Patriot League.  It's the opportunity to play an intercollegiate sport at Georgetown and "4 for 40" that are the recruiting selling points.  Also don't think the caliber of any FCS football matters for trying to cultivate any student/alumni/DMV community interest.  What Sgarlata has been able to accomplish without scholarships and with the admissions challenges is pretty impressive IMO.  But it seems futile to participate in a league where these barriers to competing for championships exist, and a little unbecoming for the biggest brand name in the League by far to have these barriers to success. 

If GU isn't willing to grant Sgarlata the requisite resources to compete for Patriot League titles, it makes sense to explore alternatives.  I would make the same case for any other sport that GU isn't doing what is necessary to compete for conference championships, but don't believe league changes are an option for Big East teams.  GU has a long, and storied at times, history of football that should continue.  Given the popularity of football and the on campus venue, football has the potential to become a factor in the University community that other underachieving sports don't.  With a winning FCS team and maybe some organized tailgates, football has the potential to be a popular part of campus life.  

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 17, 2021 10:32:26 GMT -5 hoyas212 said:

Would it make sense for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League? Or are there financial aid or travel cost considerations that make that prohibitive?  It seems the commitment to football from those schools is far more commensurate with Georgetown's than the scholarship Patriot League schools.  Another Big East school, Butler, already plays in the Pioneer League.  Admittedly, not sure what is meant by Jack's "ethos and culture" comments regarding football, but don't see how being in the Patriot instead of the Pioneer would be applicable.  It's not like the Patriot League brings an Ivy League-like cache to the program/university.  With no scholarships or league mandated admissions requirements, Georgetown should routinely be at the top of the standings of the Pioneer League with an annual chance of going to the playoffs.

Not many good choices out there.

Patriot League (Up to 60 scholarships, no minimum)
(Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh)

+ Fits ethos and culture (sort of)
+ Can recruit/play against Ivy League
+ All schools are within eight hours by bus

- Academic Index restricts recruitable players
- Not competitive without scholarships and/or admissions waivers
- No interest from better opponents
- No rivalries to interest students/fans

Ivy League
(Brown, Colgate, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale)
- They aren't interested. Hard stop.

Northeast Conference (40 scholarships)
(Bryant, Duquesne Central Connecticut, LIU, Merrimack,. Sacred Heart, St. Francis, Wagner)

+ No admissions barrier
+ All schools are within eight hours by bus
+ Similar footprint to Patriot

- No peer institutions; no ethos and culture
- Still less competitive w/o scholarships
- No interest from better schools, Ivy and PL generally doesn't play them
- No rivalries to interest students/fans

Colonial Athletic Association (63 scholarships)
(Albany, Delaware, Elon, New Hampshire, Maine, Richmond, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Towson, William & Mary, Villanova)

+ No admissions barrier
+ Top 3 conference in FCS; better recruiting and visibility
+ Most schools are within eight hours by bus
+ Potential for regional interest (Villanova, Towson, Richmond, William & Mary)
+ Regular NCAA playoff possibilities for at-large selections

- One peer institution (Villanova); otherwise, no ethos and culture
- Significant step up in competition, not competitive without scholarships
- Mostly state institutions
- Additional budget support likely needed
- Cooper Field may be insufficient (most CAA stadiums 12,000-20,000)


Pioneer Football League (0 scholarships)
(Butler, Dayton, Davidson, Drake, St. Thomas MN, Marist, Morehead St., Presbyterian, San Diego, Stetson, Valparaiso)

+ No scholarships

- No peer institutions; no ethos and culture
- Poor athletic reputation, considered the worst conference in the nation
- Only one team in East (Marist), $0.5-1M increase in annual costs due to travel (Florida, California, Minnesota, Indiana, Kentucky, Iowa, South Carolina, etc.)
- All PFL schools can offer merit aid, GU does not
- Can't offer preferential aid/return to a D-III level recruiting pool
- No rivalries to interest students/fans

Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (63 scholarships)
(Delaware St., Howard, Morgan St., North Carolina St., Norfolk St., South Carolina St.)

- No peer institutions; completely different ethos and culture
- Conference is unstable and could fold
- Less direction than the Patriot League
- Realigns games to HBCUs which are not where GU recruits
- No rivalries to interest students/fans

Big South Conference (63 scholarships)
(Campbell, Charleston Southern, Hampton, Kennesaw St., NC A&T, Monmouth, North Alabama, Robert Morris)

- No peer institutions; no ethos and culture
- Only two teams in East (Monmouth, Robert Morris), neither are rivals
- Mostly state institutions
- Conference is unstable
- Increase in costs due to travel
- Significant step up in competition, not competitive without scholarships
- Realigns games to south which are not where GU recruits
- Additional budget support likely needed
- No rivalries to interest students/fans

I-AA/FCS independent (0 to 63 scholarships)

+ Play/recruit/spend whatever you want.

- No other FCS independents in nation to play
- Difficult to recruit/retain coaches
- No post season opportunities
- Unlikely to play most schools after week 5 or 6; increase in travel to fill schedule with any available lower division teams
- No media presence (ESPN+, etc.)
- No rivalries to interest students/fans
- Leads to program instability

[hoyas212]

The above is very interesting.  I recall there being consensus that the Bob Benson era logic on the move from the Metro Atlantic to the Patriot League was sound and that there was a realistic expectation of success in the Patriot League, and then scholarships changed the calculus entirely.  Most of those old Metro Atlantic foes have since cut their football programs.  We're clearly now a misfit toy in FCS football without athletic scholarships, merit aid, or Ivy quality need based aid.  Is there any hope or expectation for something to change or will GU be content with the current circumstances?  Not sure how amenable the Patriot League would be or if GU even cares enough to ask, but the best case somewhat realistic scenario seems like waiving or adjusting the academic index requirements for Georgetown.  

[teddy16]

the PL is an appropriate venue for GU football. the problem is the administration does not want to compete with the resources that Fordham or HC commit. i dont understand the sentiment that GU doesnt try to win in all sports and hasn't in the past in others and we didnt drop the sport (ie., mens soccer). the resources to field a football program vs soccer .... the former is far more (even at our low budget ). my point is we continually allocate less resources to our peers in football. not the case in mens/womens lax or soccer. football is higher profile (generally) and it requires a higher budget. (loook at the # of coaches etc..,) Its agreed we need to do something different and make a commitment to try to win. state the objective. Embrace winning. we can do all the analytic attribution on why we lose - the administration should turn it around with a plan to win. Soccer and lax have a plan to win, so does basketball and we have success. we are serious and committed. if we arent going to do that in football- - - why stay as a loser in a sport that costs more than any other sport except basketball? Doing football on the cheap has been the M.O. by GU athletics for 40+ years. hows that working out?

[reformation]

Taking thea aprroach above I guess you could look at how much would it cost gtwn to be able to field a team that could win the P/L and also be able to beat Har/Yale (best of the ivies etc)--assuming that is the highest level that would be realistic to shoot for-also what does that really get us as an institution to be top at the Patriot/Ivy level vs being top at a national level in the non revenue sports

If you look sport by sport we spend I would guess at least 5X what an Ivy spends on basketball and we would not win the Ivy basketball title.

For soccer yes, we probably spend a little more than the ivies and clearly a top 5 national mens program and would be the best Ivy by a lot

Lacrosse, I'd say we are near the top of the Ivy in both men and women and nationally competitive though not clear we are competitive for a national title. I suspect we spend more than the ivies on lacrosse by a small-moderate amt, though probably slighlty less than the consitent natl elite like Duke, UVA etc.

I think a cost benefit approach to looking at our investments in sports makes sense--just not sure that you will like the answer