vv83
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Post by vv83 on Jun 28, 2020 21:55:48 GMT -5
It's been interesting to hear Chris and Austin talk about the Princeton offense. They clearly respect JTIII, but it feels like in each podcast, they are progressively more critical of the offense. It seems pretty clear that they think playing in the Princeton:
-led to more losses than they should have had given their team talent level -left them less prepared for their professional careers
Chris even said he had "no idea" how to run a Pick/Roll when he left Georgetown, and did not really learn this until he started playing professionally. Probably somewhat of an exaggeration - we definitely did some ball screen stuff with Wright, especially later I his Hoya career. But the general point seems clear- our two best guards under JTIII were not fans of the Princeton offense.
Then you have Durant saying that one of the main reasons he (and players of his caliber) did not even consider Georgetown was because of the Princeton.
None of this should be all that surprising, but it has been pretty striking to hear so much honest, direct criticism of the Princeton offense in these podcasts.
Again, both guys have lots of good things to say about JTIII and their Hoya experience. But you definitely get the sense that they both feel their teams underachieved, that they did not personally reach their full potential as Hoyas, and that they were not as well prepped as they would have liked for pro basketball - with the Princeton offense playing a big role in all of this.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 29, 2020 3:36:21 GMT -5
“Kindly excuse yourself” = stop responding to me. Is it that hard? Hahahah not to mention I JuST read the response and if you think that poster agrees with your retort as constructed I have a few bridges to sell you. They said they appreciated your position, but you’re still missing some pretty elementary points. You still haven’t exhibited any understanding of the whole impetus for a Wright/K/whoever prediction. I’ve already wasted enough time or I’d spell it out for you Are you this arrogant in real life? Arrogant? You sound salty.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 29, 2020 3:39:58 GMT -5
“Kindly excuse yourself” = stop responding to me. Is it that hard? Hahahah not to mention I JuST read the response and if you think that poster agrees with your retort as constructed I have a few bridges to sell you. They said they appreciated your position, but you’re still missing some pretty elementary points. You still haven’t exhibited any understanding of the whole impetus for a Wright/K/whoever prediction. I’ve already wasted enough time or I’d spell it out for you Rock...how many Editeding contests can you participate in at one time? Let it go man...life is good!! Literally why do you care? And it’s not a Editeding contest when the other person isn’t even in the game no offense. You’d rather I just let people walk around like chickens with their heads cut off? Believe it or not it isn’t about me, I’d like our collective understanding as a fan base (and species) to improve where it can. Is that really such a bad thing? Trying to explain to people what the difference between facts/reality and what innuendo/speculation is? Cause clearly some can’t tell the difference. What do you have against me trying to improve the quality of discourse on the board? Particularly in an era where nobody reads anymore and synthesizing information seems to be harder for a lot of people. I understand some people don’t appreciate my style, well newsflash in case you couldn’t already tell I don’t really care how I come off this is a message board and I’m not being rude/disrespectful towards anyone that hasn’t already been (baselessly) rude to our program, players, and coaches, who, btw, aren’t here to defend themselves and are real people. But it’s okay to bad mouth them, god forbid I call out someone sitting in their moms basement launching insult after insult at our Hoyas because their spreadsheet isn’t calculating correctly enough for them. So yeah I can be a little abrasive, but it’s never really disproportional. I mean, I hate people making stuff up and trying to weigh in on things they KNOW they have no business talking about, so everyone is entitled to not liking certain posters styles. When I’m wrong I’m wrong, but tall you guys get into is name calling and talking about other posters and they’re styles. It’s not like you’re debating the substance of my post. And if your stance is that it’s not “worth” engaging me over than maybe you should look in the mirror and humble yourself.....either that or you’re afraid to debate ideas and the substance 🤷🏽♂️ And my attitude is certainly no different than coming from an athlete’s perspective, so if my style really ruffles your feathers....good thing you never tried to play for Coach Ewing, we’d probably have a TMZ exposé by now...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 29, 2020 3:56:31 GMT -5
It's been interesting to hear Chris and Austin talk about the Princeton offense. They clearly respect JTIII, but it feels like in each podcast, they are progressively more critical of the offense. It seems pretty clear that they think playing in the Princeton: -led to more losses than they should have had given their team talent level -left them less prepared for their professional careers Chris even said he had "no idea" how to run a Pick/Roll when he left Georgetown, and did not really learn this until he started playing professionally. Probably somewhat of an exaggeration - we definitely did some ball screen stuff with Wright, especially later I his Hoya career. But the general point seems clear- our two best guards under JTIII were not fans of the Princeton offense. Then you have Durant saying that one of the main reasons he (and players of his caliber) did not even consider Georgetown was because of the Princeton. None of this should be all that surprising, but it has been pretty striking to hear so much honest, direct criticism of the Princeton offense in these podcasts. Again, both guys have lots of good things to say about JTIII and their Hoya experience. But you definitely get the sense that they both feel their teams underachieved, that they did not personally reach their full potential as Hoyas, and that they were not as well prepped as they would have liked for pro basketball - with the Princeton offense playing a big role in all of this. Good points. The way I see it from the Pat episode and reading between the lines it sounds like Chris/Austin not buying in is the reason that 2008 team ended up falling short and the 2009 team being the most underachieving team in this new era. The part where he talks about the Pitt game in particular is telling. Pat (and the returning players?) saw a window to make a comeback, but a young Chris and Austin already skeptical about what they had heard from hs didn’t buy in to the offense and didn’t think they were capable of coming back. It doesn’t matter what system you run or which sport you’re playing, step one is having everyone on the same page. If not, it’s hard to find success. So I think whether or not Austin or Chris didn’t like the style of the offense is kinda besides the point and almost them scapegoating, because it sounds like they never even really gave the offense a chance. Or maybe they weren’t as skilled as they thought to play within it. I think that they were skilled enough, but when you don’t buy in you don’t necessarily develop optimally. And quite frankly JT3 waxed A LOT of teams with his offense. Those were just the negative recruiting talking points we had during that era - it shouldn’t come as a surprise that kids in the DMV were hearing that from coaches who were recruiting against us - doesn’t make it true. Not to mention as bad as some of these coaches can be, JT3 has a good basketball mind (he’s stubborn and his style went stale), so I’m not sure that Chris and Austin are a measure of superior or frankly similar reasoning/understanding. Them not making it professionally had more to do with personal and medical issues. And if you listen to Chris he never sounded like he wanted to be a Hoya originally so it doesn’t seem like he tried to pick a style that fit his game. My point is their lack of development is more on them and they can’t have expected to have developed optimally in the offense if they didn’t believe in it in the first place. Austin seemed to like it and if it were not for turbulent end to senior year and the lockout that summer he might’ve made an opening day roster. But yeah I think we know enough about both of them to not have to generalize about why their fit on a particular team wasn’t optimal.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Jun 29, 2020 9:01:03 GMT -5
Rock...how many Editeding contests can you participate in at one time? Let it go man...life is good!! Literally why do you care? And it’s not a Editeding contest when the other person isn’t even in the game no offense. You’d rather I just let people walk around like chickens with their heads cut off? Believe it or not it isn’t about me, I’d like our collective understanding as a fan base (and species) to improve where it can. Is that really such a bad thing? Trying to explain to people what the difference between facts/reality and what innuendo/speculation is? Cause clearly some can’t tell the difference. What do you have against me trying to improve the quality of discourse on the board? Particularly in an era where nobody reads anymore and synthesizing information seems to be harder for a lot of people. I understand some people don’t appreciate my style, well newsflash in case you couldn’t already tell I don’t really care how I come off this is a message board and I’m not being rude/disrespectful towards anyone that hasn’t already been (baselessly) rude to our program, players, and coaches, who, btw, aren’t here to defend themselves and are real people. But it’s okay to bad mouth them, god forbid I call out someone sitting in their moms basement launching insult after insult at our Hoyas because their spreadsheet isn’t calculating correctly enough for them. So yeah I can be a little abrasive, but it’s never really disproportional. I mean, I hate people making stuff up and trying to weigh in on things they KNOW they have no business talking about, so everyone is entitled to not liking certain posters styles. When I’m wrong I’m wrong, but tall you guys get into is name calling and talking about other posters and they’re styles. It’s not like you’re debating the substance of my post. And if your stance is that it’s not “worth” engaging me over than maybe you should look in the mirror and humble yourself.....either that or you’re afraid to debate ideas and the substance 🤷🏽♂️ And my attitude is certainly no different than coming from an athlete’s perspective, so if my style really ruffles your feathers....good thing you never tried to play for Coach Ewing, we’d probably have a TMZ exposé by now... Wow...you are really take this seriously!! (Let’s see if I can elicit an even longer response this time.)
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jun 29, 2020 9:26:17 GMT -5
Regarding the Princeton offense and its effect on NBA potential...I remember speaking with an aquaintance of mine who was a member of the Wizards scouting department.They had just had Markel Starks in for a workout. I asked about it, of course. He said, good kid with some talent, but "he's from Georgetown and hasn't had any experience running a pro style offense."
Obviously if Markel had Iverson talent, it wouldn't have mattered. He probably was just a notch below the NBA level, athletically, anyway. But the point is, the Princeton was very much looked down upon by the NBA.
In fact, he told me that Otto had a much bigger learning curve , than expected, as he wasn't used to sprinting up the court after the other team scored. I do think it was not a hindrance for a power forward or center, as the passing skills they learned in the Princeton were actually a plus. Just my two cents.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 29, 2020 10:12:25 GMT -5
One undercurrent of the discussion with Ewing Jr. was that under the Princeton offense, you were not going to get as many touches as you might get in another offense. And, I think that's true, especially when the Princeton offense is played at such a slow tempo as Georgetown played it in 2007/2008. I do think that makes the offense a tougher sell for recruits.
The Princeton Offense, at least as it was used in 2007/2008 does not make it as easy for multiple guys to put up huge raw numbers. The same is really true of any slower offense, such as the one used by Virginia. Unfortunately, while raw numbers (like points per game) are not all that useful from a true analytical perspective (since it ignores efficiency), ESPN and reporters use them, and as a result the guys with high numbers usually get the most attention.
The 2007 and 2008 teams were really slow. The adjusted tempos were 327 and 316 in 2007 and 2008. I do think part of that is the result of Hibbert being such a big focus on the offense. After Hibbert graduated, the pace did go up to 277, 182, and 265 - still pretty slow though. The 2013 team was also really slow (300), and then JT3 definitely changed the offense toward the end - his last team's tempo was his fastest at 147.
That said, when looking at tempo, it's also important to consider defense. A great defensive team (like we had in 2008 and 2013) is usually going to be pretty slow overall because the defensive possessions are going to take long. That was definitely true of the 2013 team that really stretched the shot clock on defense.
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cas92
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Post by cas92 on Jun 29, 2020 10:16:32 GMT -5
In fact, he told me that Otto had a much bigger learning curve , than expected, as he wasn't used to sprinting up the court after the other team scored. I do think it was not a hindrance for a power forward or center, as the passing skills they learned in the Princeton were actually a plus. Just my two cents. In an interview conducted during his rookie season or shortly thereafter, believe Porter was asked as to what his biggest learning curve involved. His immediate response was pick/roll.
This (unrelated) account of his initial exposure to the NBA lends credence to what you've mentioned - www.washingtonpost.com/news/wizards-insider/wp/2014/06/04/otto-porter-season-in-review-wizards-rookie-hopes-to-build-on-learning-year/
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Jun 29, 2020 10:38:09 GMT -5
Good thing we run a pro-style offense now.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jun 29, 2020 11:41:36 GMT -5
Good thing we run a pro-style offense now. Now if we can only get Wright, Freeman, Monroe and Porter to come run it!
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Post by njhoyalawya on Jun 29, 2020 12:29:20 GMT -5
Good thing we run a pro-style offense now. My thought exactly!
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 29, 2020 18:39:19 GMT -5
It's been interesting to hear Chris and Austin talk about the Princeton offense. They clearly respect JTIII, but it feels like in each podcast, they are progressively more critical of the offense. It seems pretty clear that they think playing in the Princeton: -led to more losses than they should have had given their team talent level -left them less prepared for their professional careers Chris even said he had "no idea" how to run a Pick/Roll when he left Georgetown, and did not really learn this until he started playing professionally. Probably somewhat of an exaggeration - we definitely did some ball screen stuff with Wright, especially later I his Hoya career. But the general point seems clear- our two best guards under JTIII were not fans of the Princeton offense. Then you have Durant saying that one of the main reasons he (and players of his caliber) did not even consider Georgetown was because of the Princeton. None of this should be all that surprising, but it has been pretty striking to hear so much honest, direct criticism of the Princeton offense in these podcasts. Again, both guys have lots of good things to say about JTIII and their Hoya experience. But you definitely get the sense that they both feel their teams underachieved, that they did not personally reach their full potential as Hoyas, and that they were not as well prepped as they would have liked for pro basketball - with the Princeton offense playing a big role in all of this. Come tournament time, the Princeton defense was on rollerskates against the likes of Ohio. That same Princeton offense got other teams to the Sweet Sixteen and Final Four. I'm sure UVA gets recruited against too with their pedestrian offense. Hasn't hurt their program. Durant didn't go to Maryland either. He went all the way to Texas. We all know how Durant likes to choose his teams, college and the NBA. I get what they are saying. We've known this about III and his offense since he was riding high. Guys want to get to the league and showcase/develop your skills. That comes down to choice. If you are a drop-back/pro-style QB, you aren't going to sign with a spread-option offense. If I was a top-flight guard, I wouldn't have come to G-town during III's time. If I was a forward or C, then I definitely would have signed. On paper, the Wright-Freeman era looked great, but they had weaknesses that had less to do with the Princeton offense. Offense wasn't a problem with those teams. III tried to improve upon those weaknesses with the Otto era.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 29, 2020 18:40:14 GMT -5
Good thing we run a pro-style offense now. Now if we can only get Wright, Freeman, Monroe and Porter to come run it! Wright, Freeman, and Monroe couldn't beat Ohio in the tournament.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jun 29, 2020 20:01:47 GMT -5
No, and the original poster agreed with us re: Wright and disagreed with your point. But you do you. “Kindly excuse yourself” = stop responding to me. Is it that hard? Hahahah not to mention I JuST read the response and if you think that poster agrees with your retort as constructed I have a few bridges to sell you. They said they appreciated your position, but you’re still missing some pretty elementary points. You still haven’t exhibited any understanding of the whole impetus for a Wright/K/whoever prediction. I’ve already wasted enough time or I’d spell it out for you Perhaps I should have my hand slapped for not letting this rest, since more than a day has passed since this exchange was concluded. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't have a clue what point Rock was trying to make originally. I don't usually feel I'm stupid, being a graduate of both GU and Harvard Law School, but hey, I've been wrong before. Please enlighten us.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jun 29, 2020 21:50:49 GMT -5
It's been interesting to hear Chris and Austin talk about the Princeton offense. They clearly respect JTIII, but it feels like in each podcast, they are progressively more critical of the offense. It seems pretty clear that they think playing in the Princeton: -led to more losses than they should have had given their team talent level -left them less prepared for their professional careers Chris even said he had "no idea" how to run a Pick/Roll when he left Georgetown, and did not really learn this until he started playing professionally. Probably somewhat of an exaggeration - we definitely did some ball screen stuff with Wright, especially later I his Hoya career. But the general point seems clear- our two best guards under JTIII were not fans of the Princeton offense. Then you have Durant saying that one of the main reasons he (and players of his caliber) did not even consider Georgetown was because of the Princeton. None of this should be all that surprising, but it has been pretty striking to hear so much honest, direct criticism of the Princeton offense in these podcasts. Again, both guys have lots of good things to say about JTIII and their Hoya experience. But you definitely get the sense that they both feel their teams underachieved, that they did not personally reach their full potential as Hoyas, and that they were not as well prepped as they would have liked for pro basketball - with the Princeton offense playing a big role in all of this. They also put it in context in the first part of the Pat, Jr. chat. CW notes that the Princeton was being run by teams that had made the Finals and that it didn't inhibit individual players from putting up numbers.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jun 29, 2020 22:52:55 GMT -5
As mentioned earlier, the defense lost the Ohio game.
83 points should have been enough from the Princeton based offense to beat the Bobcats.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 29, 2020 23:34:35 GMT -5
As mentioned earlier, the defense lost the Ohio game. 83 points should have been enough from the Princeton based offense to beat the Bobcats. I would love to hear Chris and Austin comment on that game, given Julian Vaughn's take on it.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jun 30, 2020 0:26:19 GMT -5
As mentioned earlier, the defense lost the Ohio game. 83 points should have been enough from the Princeton based offense to beat the Bobcats. I would love to hear Chris and Austin comment on that game, given Julian Vaughn's take on it. They spoke briefly about it during their Kente Korner podcast appearance last week. They didn’t go into that much detail from what I remember, but they did mention that it was hard to come back from a deficit of 8-9 points in the Princeton Offense.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jun 30, 2020 6:16:43 GMT -5
I would love to hear Chris and Austin comment on that game, given Julian Vaughn's take on it. They spoke briefly about it during their Kente Korner podcast appearance last week. They didn’t go into that much detail from what I remember, but they did mention that it was hard to come back from a deficit of 8-9 points in the Princeton Offense. Not if you get stops on the other side of the ball. The 2007 team erased a double digit deficit in the second half in the elite eight against a more formidable team than Ohio. They held UNC without a field goal for over 10 minutes. Comebacks begin with defense.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jun 30, 2020 7:18:14 GMT -5
They spoke briefly about it during their Kente Korner podcast appearance last week. They didn’t go into that much detail from what I remember, but they did mention that it was hard to come back from a deficit of 8-9 points in the Princeton Offense. Not if you get stops on the other side of the ball. The 2007 team erased a double digit deficit in the second half in the elite eight against a more formidable team than Ohio. They held UNC without a field goal for over 10 minutes. Comebacks begin with defense. Exactly. I haven’t had time to hear the podcasts, but some of it sounds like excuses. A few defensive stops here and there, and we win that game. But as Julian put it, the day before the game our starters could not stop our backups running Ohio’s offense and JT3 left the practice session without coming up with a plan. Also, recently, Virginia and Villanova haven’t had a problem running a slow and deliberate offense, compared to Pat’s, to winning records, effective recruiting and getting players to the NBA. It is the player’s responsibility to work to get ready for the next level, not just the coaching staff’s. Finally, an argument can be made that Austin would’ve been better suited for an open, running offense with bad defenses like Pat has. But, Austin never got into good shape until after his last GU game and before the Draft. So, I think that he would tire more easily than under JT3’s offense and therefore decrease his offensive efficiency under Pat’s offense. On the other hand, with his bullish penetrations and his perimeter game, I think Chris would’ve thrived under Pat’s scheme.
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