rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 27, 2020 13:06:24 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate here, how many times was our staff one of the first to identify talent early (prior to recruiting sites and the blue bloods) and then a kid blows up and we loose out in the end. If we can snag some of these early looks quickly, before the others come around, I am fine with it. I trust in the staff's eye for talent. This is a common myth on here. We are very rarely if ever the 1st big school to offer these "under the radar" guy. Yes they get a bump after we offer but that is because others offered first and it makes the evaluators notice. Lol, right.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 27, 2020 13:07:06 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 27, 2020 13:08:27 GMT -5
This is a common myth on here. We are very rarely if ever the 1st big school to offer these "under the radar" guy. Yes they get a bump after we offer but that is because others offered first and it makes the evaluators notice. Lol, right. Please let me know these recruits that Ewing is on first that have got a huge bump.
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Post by DownTownJoeyBrown on Apr 27, 2020 13:18:05 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways. Similar to my sentiments but said much better. The last few months, when it was critical for the staff to step up, have not gone well.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 27, 2020 13:20:39 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways. Similar to my sentiments but said much better. The last few months, when it was critical for the staff to step up, have not gone well. I was typing my post as you were. Saw yours after. Glad someone else sees it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2020 13:22:44 GMT -5
How can his recruiting match the results on the floor (or vice versa) when four of his better recruits transferred out and two others were hurt? Do you remember the state of the program when he was hired (and a late hire at that in that he had to scramble to grab some late kids just a few years ago)
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 27, 2020 13:36:28 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways. We’re in this situation we’re in because half of our outgoing talent was fundamentally homesick and we lost a lot of pieces mid season. We would’ve had two straight years of exceeding rebuilding expectations if they had stayed. They didn’t. Not sure the question is talent evaluation/recruiting so much as it is retaining that talent at this juncture. Had those players stayed and we made the tournament (even just making the tourney with a healthy Omer/Mac), better believe we would be making a bigger splash in recruiting at this point.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 27, 2020 13:37:15 GMT -5
LOL! I can never understand why you're so snarky all the time, why not add to the conversation or move on? Such irony when you type "rinse, repeat". The point is that the staff has a good eye for talent, so let's not so harshly judge the incoming players before even giving them a chance to prove themselves. I don't doubt their eye for talent, I just don't see the need to pump it up with bogus narratives... I'm high on Beard & Clark and said so many times during their recruitments, I've never harshly judged D. Harris or Sibley either...
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2020 13:50:10 GMT -5
Do you remember the state of the program when he was hired (and a late hire at that in that he had to scramble to grab some late kids just a few years ago) We're in worse shape right now than we were then. If McClung leaves, we are in way worse shape right now than we were then.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Apr 27, 2020 13:56:09 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways. I think player development is an issue. In our conference, guys like Willard, Wright, McDermott, Anderson, Cooley, and Jordan have shown excellent player development. Maybe Steele to a lesser extent, but it has not been the same here. We've seen Wahab show flashes and improve, but that's really it. Getting guys you like is one thing, but if you like them enough to recruit them, you should be making them better. Someone like Pickett is an excellent example. The kid can make a jump, we've all seen it. He was much better at the very end of the season. Per 40 minutes, Pickett scores fewer points than he did as a freshman by .7 while taking .6 fewer attempts. So, a little more efficient, but that could just be due to having an actual PG vs not as a freshman. His FG% went up .2%. .01 increase in FG% from his sophomore season, where he took a step back in per 40 stats across the board. His three-point percentage has gone up by .19%. He has become a better rebounder and has shown flashes as a defender, but is not nearly the guy he can be. You have to develop the guys that you get. Comparing him to a Ty-Shon Alexander who had very similar recruiting rankings. Alexander came in averaging 5.5 PPG as a freshman. Not great, but he only played 17.7 minutes. 12.5PPG per 40. Again, not great. But then he takes a huge jump his sophomore season averaging 15.7PPG and 19.3PPG per 40. His senior season, Zegarowski really developed so he took more of a back seat role on that team as a scorer. Still, he went from 15.7PPG to 16.6PPG. That and he became a lockdown defender. Both Powell and Howard had a very tough time scoring on Alexander. His percentages also went up across the board. That's real player development. Ewing and the staff need to develop talent better. That's why they brought in Coach Crouch. He's shown something, with Pickett looking much better at the end of the season and Allen and Mosely's shot being much cleaner. But, you have to be able to take someone and turn them into a player to compete at this level. Missing out on recruits is one thing, but not developing talent once you get it is another. That and our recruiting classes are higher on sites like 247 sometimes because of quantity, not quality. In 2019 our class was fourth according to points but was 6th according to the average rating of each player. In 2018 our class was ranked 3rd based on score, but fifth in average rating. I don't think this takes away from what you are saying, but I do want to point it out just so we are all realistic about where this team stands recruiting wise. The talent evaluator argument has always confused me. On one hand, he has been early on guys like RJ Davis before a ton of high majors got on him (I don't think we were first, but we were early for sure), but at the same time he sends out offers early that then become non-commitable, so he's offering guys who fall down the rankings, so I've been confused about it all along.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2020 13:56:09 GMT -5
Do you remember the state of the program when he was hired (and a late hire at that in that he had to scramble to grab some late kids just a few years ago) We're in worse shape right now than we were then. If McClung leaves, we are in way worse shape right now than we were then. I strongly disagree; if Mac jumps then yes next year will be tough, but we would have four pretty talented freshman going into their sophomore season with a lot of playing time under their belts-next to Wahab. There was zero optimism for something like that after JTIII’s last season. And I’m not hating on JTIII, just comparing the state of the program
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Post by DownTownJoeyBrown on Apr 27, 2020 13:58:19 GMT -5
I have no problem with Ewing's recruiting until this class. At the same time this idea that he is a great talent evaluator just doesn't match the results on the court. It's not like we are getting all diamonds in the rough. He has landed good enough players to compete especially when you factor in the transfers. If a lot of these guys were overplaying their ranking we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. The fact is our classes have been in the 3-5 range in BE recruiting rankings each year and that doesn't include transfers. That is not the results we are getting. I think the mistake people make is they use the box score #'s to determine if a player is outplaying their ranking. If we had a team full of 2 stars out there they would still score some points, get rebounds, assists etc. People would assume that just because they got stats they overplayed their ranking without considering anything else. If he is the great talent evaluator he must be a bad coach in some aspect. You can't have it both ways. We’re in this situation we’re in because half of our outgoing talent was fundamentally homesick and we lost a lot of pieces mid season. We would’ve had two straight years of exceeding rebuilding expectations if they had stayed. They didn’t. Not sure the question is talent evaluation/recruiting so much as it is retaining that talent at this juncture. Had those players stayed and we made the tournament (even just making the tourney with a healthy Omer/Mac), better believe we would be making a bigger splash in recruiting at this point. Staff is responsible for all of this. I realize there are some extenuating circumstances here but ultimately when you're in charge, your accountable for all of it. Find better kids, build better culture. Could it happen despite great kids/great culture, sure. But the last year still falls on his shoulders. That's the nature of the beast.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2020 14:01:29 GMT -5
We’re in this situation we’re in because half of our outgoing talent was fundamentally homesick and we lost a lot of pieces mid season. We would’ve had two straight years of exceeding rebuilding expectations if they had stayed. They didn’t. Not sure the question is talent evaluation/recruiting so much as it is retaining that talent at this juncture. Had those players stayed and we made the tournament (even just making the tourney with a healthy Omer/Mac), better believe we would be making a bigger splash in recruiting at this point. Staff is responsible for all of this. I realize there are some extenuating circumstances here but ultimately when you're in charge, your accountable for all of it. Find better kids, build better culture. Could it happen despite great kids/great culture, sure. But the last year still falls on his shoulders. That's the nature of the beast. Agreed, but you can’t compare his “eye for talent” versus results on the floor if his top 6 recruits barely played this year
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Apr 27, 2020 14:13:41 GMT -5
Staff is responsible for all of this. I realize there are some extenuating circumstances here but ultimately when you're in charge, your accountable for all of it. Find better kids, build better culture. Could it happen despite great kids/great culture, sure. But the last year still falls on his shoulders. That's the nature of the beast. Agreed, but you can’t compare his “eye for talent” versus results on the floor if his top 6 recruits barely played this year Cannot expect to put a competitive product on the floor if you miss on all top targets and fill a roster with Plan Bs. Case in point. Sherwyn Devonish was the “under the radar” backup Plan B if we didn’t land Akinjo. Devonish was an unranked 2 star all-met PG who had “slipped through the cracks.” He is now entering his third year at Morgan St. and has yet to distinguish himself at a low major program. Would have been a waste of a scholarship. Unimaginable that Ewing and staff are landing 3-4 guys in a class that everyone else “missed” on.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 27, 2020 14:23:48 GMT -5
We have not seen the second weekend of the tournament in 13 years; we have not seen the tournament in 5 years; we have lost on three consecutive BET Wednesdays (for crying out loud we managed to lose in a tournament that didn’t even get played).
And people leave the program (voluntarily and otherwise) left and right.
Why would a top level recruit come right now?
Sad to say but right now we need lightning in a bottle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2020 14:33:26 GMT -5
Agreed, but you can’t compare his “eye for talent” versus results on the floor if his top 6 recruits barely played this year Cannot expect to put a competitive product on the floor if you miss on all top targets and fill a roster with Plan Bs. Case in point. Sherwyn Devonish was the “under the radar” backup Plan B if we didn’t land Akinjo. Devonish was an unranked 2 star all-met PG who had “slipped through the cracks.” He is now entering his third year at Morgan St. and has yet to distinguish himself at a low major program. Would have been a waste of a scholarship. Unimaginable that Ewing and staff are landing 3-4 guys in a class that everyone else “missed” on. I’m addressing the earlier statements about his “eye for talent” versus this year’s results. Hard to hit on plan A guys, especially going against blue bloods when you walk into a program with a handful of scholarship players and a sky is falling vibe on the program. He delivered talent despite that (but obviously those players barely saw the floor this year in a Hoya uni for multiple reasons). Do we not recruit kids that UNC is recruiting right now because of our struggles?
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2020 14:40:21 GMT -5
Do we not recruit kids that UNC is recruiting right now because of our struggles? Yes. Any time spent on Chet Holmgren or Moussa Cisse or Frankie Collins is an absolute waste of time.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 27, 2020 14:50:11 GMT -5
Do we not recruit kids that UNC is recruiting right now because of our struggles? Yes. Any time spent on Chet Holmgren or Moussa Cisse or Frankie Collins is an absolute waste of time. Staff is scouting/recruiting tens of players at any given time, over a hundred targeted cases over the course of a year. You act like there isn’t enough energy to be spent on everyone...
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Apr 27, 2020 14:54:55 GMT -5
Yes. Any time spent on Chet Holmgren or Moussa Cisse or Frankie Collins is an absolute waste of time. Staff is scouting/recruiting tens of players at any given time, over a hundred targeted cases over the course of a year. You act like there isn’t enough energy to be spent on everyone... True, but we should probably prioritize the guys in closer proximity (especially now). I would camp out at Dematha & Paul VII for Hawkins & McDaniel.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2020 14:55:10 GMT -5
Yes. Any time spent on Chet Holmgren or Moussa Cisse or Frankie Collins is an absolute waste of time. Staff is scouting/recruiting tens of players at any given time, over a hundred targeted cases over the course of a year. You act like there isn’t enough energy to be spent on everyone... There's isn't enough energy for every recruit and who you spend the most time on matters a lot. We need to stop wasting that time on kids who will never come.
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