So What's With the De-Commits and Transfers?

[drquigley]

I'm 50 years removed from GU and live about 100 miles north of DC. I try to attend about 5 weekend Basketball games a year and occasionally visit campus to watch Kenner league games. As my presence on this Board indicates I am still a devoted Hoya basketball fan.

I realize the GU "experience" has changed over the years and today's students, especially GU students, are a lot different than they were back in the day. And like many of you I'm concerned about recent off court basketball issues. But more concerning to me is the fact that over the past few years we have had at least two high school students change their minds about playing basketball at GU and a number of players voluntarily leave the program. Can anyone explain to me what is happening? Are these events in any way connected to the change in the "culture" of the University? Have we become an "elitist" school that makes some minority student athletes uncomfortable and that now attracts students who aren't especially interested or invested in the schools athletic programs, especially the one program that has, since the JT2 era, been identified with the school. I have had people who work on campus tell me that today's students are much more focused on grades and post graduation careers than we boomers were. I guess at $60,000+ per year that's understandable. But is this affecting our ability to recruit and retain talented (read minority) basketball players?

I hope we can have a serious discussion and hear either from current students or recent graduates about their GU experience. And though I know I may deserve it, please refrain from snarky, "OK Boomer" replies.

[nbhoya]

When have we not been an elitist school?

[swhoya]

But what if your name was Boomer?

I'm not an expert on recruiting and certainly not of high school and college kids. I'm sure others will have things to comment on about kids these days. But I think you're looking for specific trees and missing the forest. High level recruits have opportunities and pressures that weren't there 20 years ago. I suspect even ten years ago. AAU ball, social media, scouts that follow every single high school game. A kid that was just so-so his junior year of high school might suddenly explode and have a lot more options.

I was friends with a kid that was a McD back in 94, so a long time ago. But not even following recruiting that closely, I can guarantee his experience was not nearly as overwhelming as it is for kids today.

All of which is to say, I'm sure you can look at some factors that would be a GU problem. But I think the landscape has just changed.

If I were to say there were a university factor, I'd come up with two. We're a relatively small school without a football program. That means a lot less focus on us and on our players. Second, we've had a bit of uncertainty around our coaching situation for probably 5-6 years now. Between not knowing what would happen with III, to how Ewing would perform.

[DFW HOYA]

Dec 7, 2019 14:41:30 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I realize the GU "experience" has changed over the years and today's students, especially GU students, are a lot different than they were back in the day. And like many of you I'm concerned about recent off court basketball issues. But more concerning to me is the fact that over the past few years we have had at least two high school students change their minds about playing basketball at GU and a number of players voluntarily leave the program. Can anyone explain to me what is happening?

I think it is less about culture and more about the mindset that players go where they can get playing time as much as what they are learning. Back in the era if you were the 8th or 9th man on the Georgetown bench it wasn't ideal, but you probably had some good friends along for the ride and you were preparing for a life beyond basketball. That same person today is at least considering if he can find somewhere else to go to get a step closer to a pro offer somewhere if not in the US. Which is why, in part, that tonight's game will not be a homecoming for Grayson Carter as he sat on the bench today to watch UT-Arlington play UC-Santa Barbara.

Terence Williams isn't the first nor last decommit. Tremont Waters was a name from the past that many recall, but there were others. Noah Dickerson was a center in 2015 that committed to Georgetown, decommitted, committed to Florida, decommitted, than ended up at Washington. He averaged 12 ppg, went undrafted, and now plays in Israel. Would he have been better off staying at Georgetown or Florida or Washington, or does it even matter? It should, of course, but to a lot of 17 year olds with people talking in their ears, it may not.

This recommit attitude goes both ways. Mac McClung decommitted from Rutgers to come to Georgetown. James Akinjo decommitted from UConn to come to Georgetown. Before them, Tyler Adams (Duke) and Chris Wright (NC State) were decommits as well.

[hoyarooter]

The moral of the story is that we need to stop recruiting kids whose initials are TW.

[drquigley]

Dec 7, 2019 14:46:26 GMT -5 nbhoya said:

When have we not been an elitist school?

Back in the day that's when. In 1964 I applied to Georgetown, Fordham, Villanova, and Seton Hall. In my mind at least all were comparable. Tuition was 1,700 per semester and off campus housing could be found for less than $100 per month. My parents, like the parents of many of my classmates, were middle and lower middle class. Mine had never attended high school. GU, like these other private Catholic schools, was a place where the children of Catholic immigrants could be educated, given a chance to move up in society, and become more easily assimilated. It worked. But as we see with the Lori Lochlan scandal GU is now considered an "elite" school where the children of the wealthy are encouraged to attend not so much for the education as for their parents ego, so their parents can brag that they have a kid who goes to Georgetown. Very few of my close friends from the class of '68 could afford, like their parents, to send their kids to GU. I applaud the University for becoming more diverse (back in the day there were few minorities and no women). But in it's rush to become the "Catholic Ivy" it has (admittedly like most private Catholic colleges) turned its back on the families of the working class. I apologize if this has turned into a rant but as I said in my initial post I wonder if this has an impact on minority student athlete recruiting and retention. I appreciate that such recruiting and retention might have more to do with the attitude of the modern student/athlete than the GU "environment". Also, our coaching issues probably scared away some commits and encourages transfers. But I would think that playing for a school with our basketball tradition would be a huge incentive for kids who want to make a mark by returning GU to basketball dominance. Let's hope that over the next 2-3 years Patrick will do a better job of finding kids who can deal with the current campus "culture" and who welcome the challenge of playing ball at GU.

[HamptonHoya]

I don't believe it has anything to do with being an elitist school. We will never know for sure what happened, but it was a young man and young woman doing something that went left. No speculation regarding exactly what. That could and does happen on every campus USA.

De-commitments and transfers happen for a variety of reasons, all the time. We are just more sensitive when it it happens here.

My two cents.

[saxagael]

Notre Dame is dealing with this with injuries and transfers. They have 8 players who are healthy for the foreseeable future. Most top programs have transfers and also deal with de-commits. A de-commit can happen for quite a few reasons, player believes their style isn't a fit as it has changed or a coach (top or lesser) is no longer there. It is easier to decommit from a verbal commit than an NLI signed commitment.

Georgetown is a reltively young program and it often takes 3 to 5 years to get a pattern of play and a good book of recruits that the program is pursuing.

[hoyazeke]

Dec 7, 2019 15:29:20 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Dec 7, 2019 14:41:30 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I realize the GU "experience" has changed over the years and today's students, especially GU students, are a lot different than they were back in the day. And like many of you I'm concerned about recent off court basketball issues. But more concerning to me is the fact that over the past few years we have had at least two high school students change their minds about playing basketball at GU and a number of players voluntarily leave the program. Can anyone explain to me what is happening?

I think it is less about culture and more about the mindset that players go where they can get playing time as much as what they are learning. Back in the era if you were the 8th or 9th man on the Georgetown bench it wasn't ideal, but you probably had some good friends along for the ride and you were preparing for a life beyond basketball. That same person today is at least considering if he can find somewhere else to go to get a step closer to a pro offer somewhere if not in the US. Which is why, in part, that tonight's game will not be a homecoming for Grayson Carter as he sat on the bench today to watch UT-Arlington play UC-Santa Barbara.

Terence Williams isn't the first nor last decommit. Tremont Waters was a name from the past that many recall, but there were others. Noah Dickerson was a center in 2015 that committed to Georgetown, decommitted, committed to Florida, decommitted, than ended up at Washington. He averaged 12 ppg, went undrafted, and now plays in Israel. Would he have been better off staying at Georgetown or Florida or Washington, or does it even matter? It should, of course, but to a lot of 17 year olds with people talking in their ears, it may not.

This recommit attitude goes both ways. Mac McClung decommitted from Rutgers to come to Georgetown. James Akinjo decommitted from UConn to come to Georgetown. Before them, Tyler Adams (Duke) and Chris Wright (NC State) were decommits as well.

Morko was also a decommit from Ole Miss(I believe) that ended up at GTown....to me most cases are a player never really being high on the school(TWill, Mac) or a change in coaches(Morko, Tremont, Akinjo)....now transfers usually have come down to playing time(Grayson, Benimon) or getting in trouble(Walker, Leblanc, Sodom)

[Bigs"R"Us]

Benimon should have gotten more minutes, the kid could play. Another player who was mismanaged, like Cameron.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Dec 8, 2019 17:56:11 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

Benimon should have gotten more minutes, the kid could play. Another player who was mismanaged, like Cameron.

Is this serious? Both Benimon and Cameron got ample time to show their ability, and did not. Neither one was mismanaged. They just weren't very good at Georgetown.

And, I still say that despite Benimon's improvements when he transferred to Towson, a significant part of that was simply dominating weaker competition.

As for Cameron, he always seemed like a good guy and dedicated player, but he was a three point specialist who could not shoot three point shots (32.6% career). That isn't going to work under any management.

[professorhoya]

Dec 8, 2019 17:56:11 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

Benimon should have gotten more minutes, the kid could play. Another player who was mismanaged, like Cameron.

Revisionist history. At the time we had both Otto and Greg Whittington. Both were going to severely limit Benimon's PT. That's why he left.

As it turned out Whittington was kicked off the team so if Benimon had stuck around he would have regained that PT. But then again if Benimon had stayed maybe Whttington stays sharp and doesn't make a boo boo to get kicked off the team.

On top of that Benimon benefitted from a year off to work on his game. If he had stayed here he wouldn't have gotten that red shirt year off.

[professorhoya]

Dec 8, 2019 19:30:10 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Dec 8, 2019 17:56:11 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

Benimon should have gotten more minutes, the kid could play. Another player who was mismanaged, like Cameron.

Is this serious? Both Benimon and Cameron got ample time to show their ability, and did not. Neither one was mismanaged. They just weren't very good at Georgetown.

And, I still say that despite Benimon's improvements when he transferred to Towson, a significant part of that was simply dominating weaker competition.

As for Cameron, he always seemed like a good guy and dedicated player, but he was a three point specialist who could not shoot three point shots (32.6% career). That isn't going to work under any management.

Cameron good kid but not a Big East level athlete. At the end of the day that was it. It's not like he was somehow mismanaged and went on to the NBA.

[Bigs"R"Us]

Cameron was a decent shooter, but we never ran plays to get him open looks. Benimon may have been the odd man out, but I always thought he could contribute.

[bamahoya11]

This trend is neither limited to Georgetown nor to basketball. If anything, I think it's part of a culture where everyone has access to more information. In a lot ways, that's a good thing. Sometimes, though, it can support an idea that the grass always is greener somewhere else.

When I was in undergrad, multiple of my classmates tried to transfer "up." For those folks, Georgetown was a "safety" school and they wanted an Ivy League eduction. This mentality is really common now in professional schools, especially in law. Students see an opportunity to increase earning potential, and they do it. As hiring becomes more driven by analytics and projections, it makes some sense to make sure one hits all the right metrics. It never was that way for me -- Georgetown was my dream school. Even so, plenty of other folks had different views.

Of course, this is all really common in sports. It does seem like Georgetown struggles with this a bit, but other schools do, too. As many know on this board, I closely follow Alabama football. This season, it has seemed like players have entered the transfer portal every week. At schools like Alabama, players look to transfer "down" for playing time. Other times, it's a lateral move (Jalen Hurts) but still is driven by playing time. The thought is they can take what they learned, showcase their talents, and increase their earning potential. Georgetown has had plenty of players to try to transfer away for different reasons, but we also have benefitted from a number of transfers ourselves.

It's just a new challenge we have to deal with. It's hard with basketball because teams don't seem to stay together for years at a time anymore. Players always are moving -- to the pros, or, if that's not a viable option, to another school.

Also, it's hard to find a particular reason for the issues. Right now, I suspect recruits are nervous and want to see how everything shakes out with these allegations off the court. Even if that resolves itself, though, the trend is going to be toward more transfers. I don't mind it -- I do think students should be able to re-evaluate their decisions at that age. It probably changes player evaluation, though, in terms of finding people who seem interested in a long term commitment.

[calhoya]

Any player that considers himself Division 1 ready is not going to be thrilled to sit on the bench for very long. Of course there are exceptions, but the future is going to involve transfers and player movement. It adds another element to the recruiting aspect of the job and it also means that in addition to in-season recruiting of high school players and JUCOs, the staff must be aware of who is in the transfer portal and how they might fit in the program.


Question for the Board: Is there any scenario where the Hoyas could add a player at the end of the semester who would be immediately eligible? Jucos? Graduate transfers wanting only 1 semester? Foreign players?

[LCPolo18]

Dec 9, 2019 8:41:44 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Any player that considers himself Division 1 ready is not going to be thrilled to sit on the bench for very long. Of course there are exceptions, but the future is going to involve transfers and player movement. It adds another element to the recruiting aspect of the job and it also means that in addition to in-season recruiting of high school players and JUCOs, the staff must be aware of who is in the transfer portal and how they might fit in the program.


Question for the Board: Is there any scenario where the Hoyas could add a player at the end of the semester who would be immediately eligible? Jucos? Graduate transfers wanting only 1 semester? Foreign players?

I'm not an expert in this so my apologies if I get any of this wrong.

1. The Hoyas could get a high school recruit or international recruit that is eligible to graduate and enroll early (similar to Hollis Thompson and Stephen Domingo).
2. The Hoyas can not get a regular or juco transfer who will be eligible immediately, though it sounds like there could be a loophole for a graduate transfer. Based on a NCAA transfer doc, this was one of the clauses about exceptions to sitting out a year: "If you are a baseball or basketball student-athlete meeting a transfer exception but are transferring to a Division I school at the start of winter or spring term, the earliest you would be eligible to compete would be the following fall term. This midyear transfer application may not apply if you are a Division I graduate transfer, so check with your compliance office if you are transferring after graduating."

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Frankly the roster has right sized a bit with the two players moving on. Based on the volume of transfers the last five years, we probably were running under the average as Carter is the one I can think of prior to this year under Ewing. Those removed due to issues like Walker/Sodom I am not counting. Hopefully Tim & Malcolm viewed themselves as project four year players in which case I think we are good if Gardner & Alexander are exonerated.

In JTIII's initial classes, we had a lot of turnover as some kids moved on quickly. Guibunda, Spann, Thornton, Egerson were all kind of reaches and not recruits the coach got a ton of time to spend recruiting. Ewing's first class of Blair, Pickett means he is at 50% attrition in the group with two kids being removed. His next class was a four person class as well and he is down to one there so 75% attrition. That stinks but hopefully is an outlier with what transpired with Leblanc and Akinjo just not agreeing with his role. The current class with Gardner & 3 bigs is interesting and we will see how that plays out but if it is like most college basketball, the odds are one of this kids or more won't go four years. It is a sad state of affairs but I don't think coaches can expect 3 to 4 years out of most kids they recruit and it is why the timeline is always "NOW" for success.

[drquigley]

Watching the Nova game I'm sure most of us felt that this would have been a different game (still might have lost) if we had our "transfer" students. My question for the Board is what happens to those students specifically those that haven't announced where they are going? Do they keep their scholarships? Do they remain on campus and take classes? Live in same dorms? Gotta be pretty uncomfortable if you're still living with teammates you abandoned and watching them struggle when you know your presence would have made a difference. And of course the question asked by several on this Board, can they change their minds?

[LCPolo18]

Jan 11, 2020 15:20:04 GMT -5 drquigley said:

Watching the Nova game I'm sure most of us felt that this would have been a different game (still might have lost) if we had our "transfer" students. My question for the Board is what happens to those students specifically those that haven't announced where they are going? Do they keep their scholarships? Do they remain on campus and take classes? Live in same dorms? Gotta be pretty uncomfortable if you're still living with teammates you abandoned and watching them struggle when you know your presence would have made a difference. And of course the question asked by several on this Board, can they change their minds?

Galen is in Houston, TX today.