US News Rankings Discussion

[thebin]

May 6, 2023 0:06:52 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

15% of California’s population is Asian-American, yet around a third of UC Berkeley and UCLA undergraduates are Asian-American.

Is it only a third? Feels like in pure meritocracy it would be over 50%. There were some UC campuses that were around 50% when I was living in SoCal and applying to school. I think UCLA (1 of the 2 prestige/flagship campuses in reality in the state) was one of them. Berkeley always attracted an inordinate amount of the state's super accomplished white/jewish students if they were politically minded at all and at the time Asian-Americans were really not. I want to say UC Irvine was around 60%. (Mid 1990's)

[RusskyHoya]

May 12, 2023 9:21:51 GMT -5 thebin said:

May 6, 2023 0:06:52 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

15% of California’s population is Asian-American, yet around a third of UC Berkeley and UCLA undergraduates are Asian-American.

Is it only a third? Feels like in pure meritocracy it would be over 50%. There were some UC campuses that were around 50% when I was living in SoCal and applying to school. I think UCLA (1 of the 2 prestige/flagship campuses in reality in the state) was one of them. Berkeley always attracted an inordinate amount of the state's super accomplished white/jewish students if they were politically minded at all and at the time Asian-Americans were really not. I want to say UC Irvine was around 60%. (Mid 1990's)

UC Irvine is an interesting case study: www.wgbh.org/news/education/2019/03/05/how-uc-irvine-achieves-diversity-despite-ban-on-considering-race-in-admissions

Despite a statewide ban on the consideration of race in admissions, over the past 10 years, UC Irvine has nearly tripled the percentage of Latinos on campus — from 12 percent to 34 percent — and increased their six-year graduation rate from 75 percent to 95 percent.

...


UC Irvine has directly targeted heavily Latino communities like Santa Ana, aggressively recruiting talented students like Gomez.

"It's part of a long-term commitment, and it begins with individuals," said Douglas Haynes, vice provost for academic equity, diversity and inclusion. Haynes spearheaded the school's campaign to create a more diverse campus after California voters banned the consideration of race in admissions in 1996 through a ballot initiative called Proposition 209.

"I think on the one hand, it forced institutions to recast its strategies, but at the same time, Prop. 209 sent a very blunt, disrespectful message to underrepresented racial populations in the state of California," he said.

So UC Irvine responded to that message by encouraging underrepresented, first-generation students to apply, while also raising awareness about how to pay for their education through grants and loans. Once these students arrive on campus, the university has given them extra support, guiding them toward meaningful courses and degrees and offering them mentors and workshops that help them deal with stress.

The result of all this work is UC Irvine's federal designation as a Hispanic-serving institution. Still, Haynes admits, UC Irvine has a long way to go: Latinos make up nearly half of the college-age population in California, while the school's enrollment is 34 percent Latino. Even with their high graduation rate in six years, they are less likely to graduate in four years than their white, black and Asian counterparts.

...

Most public colleges in the United States do not represent the populations — racially or ethnically — they're intended to serve.

More selective public colleges than UC Irvine, like UCLA and Berkeley, marginalize Latino students, according to a report from Georgetown's Education and the Workforce. The report looked at how Latinos were represented at selective public colleges between 2005 and 2015.

“Latinos have made some progress, but they are at only half of their overall representation in the college-age population," said Martin Van Der Werf, who co-authored the report.

[Bigs"R"Us]

UC Berkeley Class of 2025

Asian 44.7%
Latino 24.2%
White 20.2%
African American 5.3%

[thebin]

May 12, 2023 21:18:56 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

UC Berkeley Class of 2025

Asian 44.7%
Latino 24.2%
White 20.2%
African American 5.3%

I am literally having trouble believing that. Arguably the best public university in the nation…is 1/5th white?

[thebin]

Those numbers are staggering. They must be discriminating heavily against whites. Or a ton of kids who can order al pastor tacos in Spanish from La Jolla are self identifying as latino now.

I also suspect they are discriminating heavily against asians too and that number is artificially low.

[thebin]

That seems like a mathematical black and white case tgat white Californians are grossly underrepresented at the state’s flagship university.

I wonder what the armies of diversity bureaucrats are doing about this emergency.

This is how once moral people excuse themselves for voting for criminals like Trump.

[SSHoya]

May 13, 2023 11:49:01 GMT -5 thebin said:

May 12, 2023 21:18:56 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

UC Berkeley Class of 2025

Asian 44.7%
Latino 24.2%
White 20.2%
African American 5.3%

I am literally having trouble believing that. Arguably the best public university in the nation…is 1/5th white?

Trust but verify. 😀

admissionsight.com/berkeley-class-of-2025-statistics/#:~:text=White%3A%2020.2%25,Latino%2FChicano%3A%2024.2%25

[RusskyHoya]

Relevant to this discussion:

[tgo]

May 12, 2023 17:06:48 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

...

More selective public colleges than UC Irvine, like UCLA and Berkeley, marginalize Latino students, according to a report from Georgetown's Education and the Workforce.

Curious if you read the referenced report or know what backed up their conclusion that these schools are "marginalizing Latino students."

[RusskyHoya]

May 13, 2023 22:33:26 GMT -5 tgo said:

May 12, 2023 17:06:48 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

...

More selective public colleges than UC Irvine, like UCLA and Berkeley, marginalize Latino students, according to a report from Georgetown's Education and the Workforce.

Curious if you read the referenced report or know what backed up their conclusion that these schools are "marginalizing Latino students."

The report in question does not use the term "marginalize(d)" anywhere - that is the journalist who wrote that article's interpretation of the following passage in the report:

Increased college enrollment by Latinos has not yet translated to equal access at the most selective colleges. The most telling metrics of racial polarization in postsecondary education are comparisons of White and Latino enrollments to their respective shares of the college-age population. Whites are still taking a disproportionate share of seats in the nation’s 500 selective colleges. Latinos account for 21 percent of the college-age population, but they only account for 12 percent of students at selective colleges (Figure 1.6).

Open-access colleges are where we see the most growth in Latino enrollment (10 percentage point increase). This trend unfortunately mimics the racial and ethnic inequality in the K-12 system. It also serves to magnify the inequality that Latino students face in the postsecondary system depending on the major that they select and occupations they apply for once they enter the labor market.

Insofar as the population of California is ~39% Hispanic/Latine, I would assume the author is simply assuming/declaring that underrepresentation = marginalization.

[thebin]

Just learned latest US News law rankings dropped GU out ofvtge vaunted T14 is it? Is this a big deal? Frankly surprised its not top 10 given the reputation as i know it but maybe i’m terribly biased.

[RusskyHoya]

May 19, 2023 14:48:01 GMT -5 thebin said:

Just learned latest US News law rankings dropped GU out ofvtge vaunted T14 is it? Is this a big deal? Frankly surprised its not top 10 given the reputation as i know it but maybe i’m terribly biased.

Yeah, it was a pretty big deal at the time among those who obsess over such things. GULC has the biggest student body and has a ton of part-timers - the general sense is that this acts to its detriment in the rankings.

abovethelaw.com/2021/04/does-the-t14-even-matter-asking-for-some-hoyas/

[DFW HOYA]

May 19, 2023 17:38:24 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

May 19, 2023 14:48:01 GMT -5 thebin said:

Just learned latest US News law rankings dropped GU out ofvtge vaunted T14 is it? Is this a big deal? Frankly surprised its not top 10 given the reputation as i know it but maybe i’m terribly biased.

Yeah, it was a pretty big deal at the time among those who obsess over such things. GULC has the biggest student body and has a ton of part-timers - the general sense is that this acts to its detriment in the rankings. abovethelaw.com/2021/04/does-the-t14-even-matter-asking-for-some-hoyas/

Inside the gates, what is the response to the US News medical school rankings, which are considerably lower?

[RusskyHoya]

May 19, 2023 17:42:22 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

May 19, 2023 17:38:24 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Yeah, it was a pretty big deal at the time among those who obsess over such things. GULC has the biggest student body and has a ton of part-timers - the general sense is that this acts to its detriment in the rankings. abovethelaw.com/2021/04/does-the-t14-even-matter-asking-for-some-hoyas/

Inside the gates, what is the response to the US News medical school rankings, which are considerably lower?

A general sense that it's a function of decades of poor financial management coupled with a less profit- and expansion-minded philosophy, relative to the schools ranked higher on the list. Plus, as ever, a significant facilities deficit, which the new surgical pavilion megaproject is intended to address.

[DFW HOYA]

May 19, 2023 18:11:55 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

A general sense that it's a function of decades of poor financial management coupled with a less profit- and expansion-minded philosophy, relative to the schools ranked higher on the list. Plus, as ever, a significant facilities deficit, which the new surgical pavilion megaproject is intended to address.

Thanks for the insight. From the outside, it's very opaque how much responsibility (or accountability) deans are held to as to relates to these metrics, and whether decanal appointments are more about faculty management and less about driving organizational change and delivering outcomes. Having met or listened to most of the deans currently in roles at GU, some seem very focused on the matter at hand, and others less so.

[Bigs"R"Us]

A school’s endowment provides the monies to improve resources. Schools like Notre Dame, Emory, Wash U and others have surpassed GU in the rankings. I fully expect to see Michigan and USC overtake GU in the coming decades. Change may be glacial, but it occurs.

[Admin]

May 21, 2023 9:38:44 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

A school’s endowment provides the monies to improve resources. Schools like Notre Dame, Emory, Wash U and others have surpassed GU in the rankings. I fully expect to see Michigan and USC overtake GU in the coming decades. Change may be glacial, but it occurs.

publicuniversityhonors.com/2016/09/18/average-u-s-news-rankings-for-126-universities-2010-1017/

[RusskyHoya]

May 21, 2023 13:32:30 GMT -5 Admin said:

May 21, 2023 9:38:44 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

A school’s endowment provides the monies to improve resources. Schools like Notre Dame, Emory, Wash U and others have surpassed GU in the rankings. I fully expect to see Michigan and USC overtake GU in the coming decades. Change may be glacial, but it occurs.

publicuniversityhonors.com/2016/09/18/average-u-s-news-rankings-for-126-universities-2010-1017/

To me, the really instructive dataset is the one that stretches back to the founding of the rankings:

publicuniversityhonors.com/tag/u-s-news-historical-college-rankings/

[RusskyHoya]

May 19, 2023 18:31:32 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

May 19, 2023 18:11:55 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

A general sense that it's a function of decades of poor financial management coupled with a less profit- and expansion-minded philosophy, relative to the schools ranked higher on the list. Plus, as ever, a significant facilities deficit, which the new surgical pavilion megaproject is intended to address.

Thanks for the insight. From the outside, it's very opaque how much responsibility (or accountability) deans are held to as to relates to these metrics, and whether decanal appointments are more about faculty management and less about driving organizational change and delivering outcomes. Having met or listened to most of the deans currently in roles at GU, some seem very focused on the matter at hand, and others less so.

There are many metrics that are far, far more important than the USNWR rankings, which are largely a marketing plot. Certainly a precipitous drop would be cause for concern, but any such drop (assuming it's not just a methodology scramble to shake things up and trigger interest/outrage) would be the result of some deeper issues. Those issues would be the focus, not the rankings. So no, Georgetown is not the kind of place where deans are being held accountable for USNWR rankings, though certainly people do monitor them and are aware of their (misplaced) place in the discourse.

As for the selection of deans, it's not all that dissimilar from senior management appointments at other types of organizations. There are a number of roles the person must perform, and each candidate has their relative strengths and weaknesses in performing each role. There are also the symbolic aspects of the job - what kind of message it sends to have a person with X background (demographic, certainly, but not only). How much weight any of these particular roles or attributes are given in the evaluation by the search committee and the ultimate decision-makers can vary quite a bit. There's no one-side-fits-all template for a dean.

I'm both a big fan and a harsh critic of strategic plans, but the complete absence of one for Georgetown speaks volumes. The old aphorism is true, of course: "Show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your priorities are." But a lot of the budget information is also kept opaque! As a result, we're left to piece things together from various sources, whether it's the campus plan or the capital campaign or on a project-by-project basis.

Compare:

Duke: strategicplan.duke.edu
Northwestern: www.northwestern.edu/strategic-plan/
Rice: buildingricesfuture.rice.edu/
Notre Dame: strategicplan.nd.edu/
Emory: strategicplan.nd.edu/

And then Georgetown: www.georgetown.edu/visual-identity/strategic-positioning-statement/

In a word: "pathetic"

[Bigs"R"Us]

My son just graduated from high school. I know that his classmates looked to the rankings when evaluating and selecting schools. Prestige is definitely a factor in choosing destinations.