the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 22, 2005 13:14:15 GMT -5
People, fail to realize, NBA scouts will still scout high school players. Its no different from scouting great sophomore players in college footbal out just 2 years of high school.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 22, 2005 15:48:43 GMT -5
I don't want one-and-dones who are only going to college b/c of the age limit. If a guy wants to go to college with the provision that he'll probably go to the draft if he's a lottery pick, that's okay. But I would hope that every athlete Gtown recruits has at least an interest in getting a college degree (i.e. feels it wouldn't be that bad to stay around for four years and then hopefully go pro if that's the way things worked out). One of these days someone has to tell me how this is any different than what's been happening in college basketball the last ten or so years. Stephon Marbury goes to college for one season and bolts long BEFORE this new rule was in place and the world still goes on. People are fooling themselves into thinking that the vast majority of the top 200 players each year are thinking of an education more than they are of making it to the NBA. That's not the case. The reality is that a very small number of high school players on average enter the draft each season. And a small number of the first year college players leave for the pros each season too. The high school option won't exist for the forseen future. Of course the college frosh to the pros scenario will be alive and well but was college bball any worse off when freshmen were going hardship before this new rule was made? Let me tell you a worse problem than this: the kids at certain schools who aren't good enough for the pros and stay all four seasons and STILL don't graduate---not even coming close sometimes. No one complains about this. Its only brought up when fans want to talk smack about a rival school. But to me that's much worse than a handful of players using college bball as simply as a temporary home until they are eligible to put their names in the draft. That hurts what coleeg bball is supposed to stand for more than a Chris Bosh or a Carmello Anthony staying around for only one season. Call me crazy.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jun 23, 2005 7:53:14 GMT -5
I agree with you, MCI. If a player is to retain his eligibility, he should be on track (or at least very close) to getting a degree in four years. This is one of college sports' dirty little secrets (or at least most ignored problem).
I do acknowledge that the Marbury's and Anthony's of the world have been using college as a springboard to the pros (and nothing more) for years. I am out and out ashamed that my proud alma mater has allowed players to do that (UNC). My point was that the Gtown program should try very hard to prevent that, even if that means winning less in the short term. Only sign players who have at least some degree of interest in education.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2005 8:01:50 GMT -5
Shanoff makes a good point on Page 2 over on ESPN.com today, something I didn't realize since I don't care about the NBA that much and didn't care to read up on the new CBA:
NBDL drops its age limit from 20 to 18. And he's right - MORE kids are going to skip college to get prepped for the NBA now. Wonder why NBA-haters in the media aren't harping about this...
This sucks for the college game, but is a pretty shrewed move by Stern.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 8:03:46 GMT -5
You can't quantifiably guage whether someone has an interest in education. Some kids come to school yearning to learn, and once they hit a college campus, its all downhill. Some come strictly to play basketball and then once they hit campus, they become interested in education. Then you have those in the middle. If millions of dollars are on the table, those interested in education are still going to jump at the chance to earn money. Why are most people getting an education? They are doing it to position themselves to make money for a career. College Basketball is a two-way street. The money the schools and the NCAA make off these kids compared to what they give these kids for a scholarship is practically criminal. I don't blame kids for leaving. This is not 1985 where Patrick Ewing stayed all 4 years. 0r 1997 where Tim Duncan stayed all 4 years. Those days when players of that caliber staying all 4 years are over with. This is the nature of the business. JTIII was hired to win. If education is the primary and only objective, then Esh would still be here. You have to do both. You have to recruit. You can get players who don't have NBA written on their forehead, but if they turn into superstars at your University, what can you do if the kid decides to go Pro. This is the college basketball landscape. Its a shame, its terrible. But this is what we are facing. Good point Buffalo about the NBDL. Stern has hinted in years past about developing a "minor league" system. This would be it. If Stern can't be like the NFL, then he would want to be like MLB. This age limit is bogus. Its all smoke and mirrors. Hey look on the bright side,at least,ehem, NBA scouts won't be,ehem, in high school gyms anymore.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Jun 23, 2005 8:35:29 GMT -5
Interesting read by the Baltimore Sun on opinions at the NBA development camp regarding the age limit: www.baltimoresun.com/sports/basketball/bal-sp.topkids23jun23,1,2060717.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines The above posts are right on about the NBDL as well. It's hypocritical of Stern to be concerned about young men skipping college/leaving early and then simultaneously dropping NBDL entry age to 18. If it were 19, at least the message would be consistent.....
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 8:42:04 GMT -5
Interesting read by the Baltimore Sun on opinions at the NBA development camp regarding the age limit: www.baltimoresun.com/sports/basketball/bal-sp.topkids23jun23,1,2060717.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines The above posts are right on about the NBDL as well. It's hypocritical of Stern to be concerned about young men skipping college/leaving early and then simultaneously dropping NBDL entry age to 18. If it were 19, at least the message would be consistent..... Baltimore Sun, Wilson? That is a Maryland Terp or should I say a UMCP paper, isn't it? ;D
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Jun 23, 2005 9:38:34 GMT -5
Interesting read by the Baltimore Sun on opinions at the NBA development camp regarding the age limit: www.baltimoresun.com/sports/basketball/bal-sp.topkids23jun23,1,2060717.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines The above posts are right on about the NBDL as well. It's hypocritical of Stern to be concerned about young men skipping college/leaving early and then simultaneously dropping NBDL entry age to 18. If it were 19, at least the message would be consistent..... Baltimore Sun, Wilson? That is a Maryland Terp or should I say a UMCP paper, isn't it? ;D hahahahaha! ;D Good one, way!! I try to read the Sun on occasion! Maybe there's inroads for GU to make some headway with Sun editors?! Have to call Don Markus, he was known to pen many a favorable piece on GU and JT2 back in the day...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 23, 2005 11:31:13 GMT -5
Interesting read by the Baltimore Sun on opinions at the NBA development camp regarding the age limit: www.baltimoresun.com/sports/basketball/bal-sp.topkids23jun23,1,2060717.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines The above posts are right on about the NBDL as well. It's hypocritical of Stern to be concerned about young men skipping college/leaving early and then simultaneously dropping NBDL entry age to 18. If it were 19, at least the message would be consistent..... Its not hypocritical. Stern would prefer if kids go to college but that's not his main concern. His main concern was unprepared, immature high schoolers jumping into the league and NBA scouts building themselves homes in high school gyms. Stern has tried to work with college basketball over the years to come up with solutions and he NEVER gets any true feedback from the NCAA. I know you college bball apologisst don't want to hear that but even John Thompson, who has great relationships with people of authority in both the NBA and NCAA, will vouch for this. Thompson has pointed out that the NCAA doesn't have a true figurehead who will actually work with Stern and Thompson is very critical over how slow the NCAA is to addressing serious problems that are hurting college basketball. The NCAA is asleep at the wheel and has been for a very long time. As Thompson once said on his radio show how is it that a man like Stern can extend an invitation to the NCAA to discuss these problems and not get an answer back? Its inexcusable. As for the NBDL its a fantastic move for those kids who aren't close to being eligible and have nothing to lose. But the vast majority of the top talent won't go that route because they will be paid peanutsrs and will possibly be exposed as not being all that good. If that's the case they may not get that NBA contract they were looking for and of course they would no longer be eligible to play in college because they would officially be professionals as soon as they signed a contract with the NBDL.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 11:42:57 GMT -5
It is hypocritical. Stern talks out both sides of his mouth. He is a business man. He doesn't care about the kids. College Basketball use to be the NBA minor league system with a twist in the sense you learned who the players were. People think college automatically matures you. There are lot of kids who "graduate" or leave before the senior year who are not mature at all. It is just convenient for Mr. Stern to talk about how bad the system is and a shame we have high school kids there, yet they had ESPN televise Lebron James' high school games. When Stern's prized possession and cash cow would be affected the most if the age level was implemented 3 years earlier: Lebron James, where was the outcry by Stern. Its bogus. Stern is in this to make money. I'm okay with that. But don't try to sell me this "I'm doing it for the kids" BS and "purifying high school gyms from NBA scouts". Because it ain't flying.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 23, 2005 12:04:39 GMT -5
This is the nature of the business. JTIII was hired to win. If education is the primary and only objective, then Esh would still be here. You have to do both. You have to recruit. You can get players who don't have NBA written on their forehead, but if they turn into superstars at your University, what can you do if the kid decides to go Pro. This is the college basketball landscape. Its a shame, its terrible. But this is what we are facing. What coach is not hired to win? Esherick was expected to win, he wasn't winning enough, and so he's not here. Jack DeGioia presented three expectations of coaches a few years back: summarized as 1) graduate players, 2) play by the rules, and 3) win. You can't be successful at Georgetown without all three, but not at all without the first two. Georgetown is not a home for the one and dones, educationally or athetically. A student that plays basketball at Georgetown has to realize that if he expects to make the NBA without getting an education, chances are good he'll finish somewhere else. As to David Stern, he is a good businessman who understands the art of compromise. The owners wanted a limit of 20, the players union 18 (or not at all), but the cost of a lockout and the resultant unrest was not worth the fight over an age limit. So Duke Vitale doesn't like a limit of 19? He'll get over it, and so will college basketball.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 12:19:19 GMT -5
This is the nature of the business. JTIII was hired to win. If education is the primary and only objective, then Esh would still be here. You have to do both. You have to recruit. You can get players who don't have NBA written on their forehead, but if they turn into superstars at your University, what can you do if the kid decides to go Pro. This is the college basketball landscape. Its a shame, its terrible. But this is what we are facing. What coach is not hired to win? Esherick was expected to win, he wasn't, and he's not here. Jack DeGioia presented three expectations of coaches a few years back: summarized as 1) graduate players, 2) play by the rules, and 3) win. Georgetown is not a home for the one and dones, educationally or athetically. A student that plays basketball at Georgetown has to realize that if he expects to make the NBA without getting an education, chances are good he'll finish somewhere else. As to David Stern, he is a good businessman who understands the art of compromise. The owners wanted a limit of 20, the players union 18 (or not at all), but the cost of a lockout and the resultant unrest was not worth the fight over an age limit. So Duke Vitale doesn't like a limit of 19? He'll get over it, and so will college basketball. Wow, you didn't mention your favorite words "facilities" and "on-campus arena" the whole time in that post. ;D I think you are a little naive when it comes to the College Basketball landscape. I never said to go after one and dones. I never said coaches aren't hired to win. Where you got that notion, I have no idea. Anyway, what I said was that you can't stop a kid from leaving school early if his talent had developed enough for him to be a high pick in the NBA draft. You need to recruit good players to win. And if those good players become great or superstars, you can't stop them from entering the draft. You don't have a crystal ball in your hands. If you get a kid who is just a good player and serious about academics, not thinking about the NBA, and with good coaching he becomes lottery-pick material and is also a good student, the kid has a right to leave early. You can't stop that. You can't predict that. This is not a science. You take a kid like Jeff Green. Wasn't deemed NBA material coming out of high school. He has NBA potential. Say if he has a big year next year, with all of the skills he has already, you are telling me Georgetown has failed or JTIII has failed because Jeff Green earned the right to be a top 3 pick in the draft and he leaves for the draft. He would be a fool not to leave. You can talk all that mission and goal fairytale stuff. But we live in real world where economics rules this country. And if a kid wants to leave because he has earned the right to do so, then he is entitled to leave.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 23, 2005 12:27:51 GMT -5
It is hypocritical. Stern talks out both sides of his mouth. He is a business man. He doesn't care about the kids. College Basketball use to be the NBA minor league system with a twist in the sense you learned who the players were. People think college automatically matures you. There are lot of kids who "graduate" or leave before the senior year who are not mature at all. It is just convenient for Mr. Stern to talk about how bad the system is and a shame we have high school kids there, yet they had ESPN televise Lebron James' high school games. When Stern's prized possession and cash cow would be affected the most if the age level was implemented 3 years earlier: Lebron James, where was the outcry by Stern. Its bogus. Stern is in this to make money. I'm okay with that. But don't try to sell me this "I'm doing it for the kids" BS and "purifying high school gyms from NBA scouts". Because it ain't flying. Good Lord. Stern doesn't ever use "its good for the kids" excuse. He only cares about the game itself, the pro game. To say that Stern is a buisnessman who is trying to make money is the most unnecessarily obvious statement in the history of all time. No kidding. As for LeBron James...he alone is not worth keeping that high school to the pros option available. Everyone knew who LeBron was. The hype was on him during his junior season in high school...long before the NBA had any control in his marketing. Hypocrites such as ESPN and its college commentators were the ones who went out of their way to cover/televise James' games on national TV when he was still in high school to further promote the guy. It would be silly, as a businessman, for Stern to not have James' debut game on ESPN after all that buildup. I'm sure it was what ESPN wanted because they wanted the ratings. Why wouldn't Stern help them out on that end? But if Stern was the true hypocrite you make him out to be he would have kept the option open for Oden and OJ Mayo to come into his league from high school, bringing all their hype with them. Its one thing to say you're against something; its another thing to actually do something. And that's the difference between Stern and the fools running the NCAA. Lets remember that the option for high schoolers to come into the NBA was there long before Stern arrived. It wasn't really a problem for his administration until KG made the jump. But by the time it had gotten out of hand the CBA of '99 had already been signed. Stern couldn't realistically change the rules until July of 2005 when that CBA ran out. When the time came that he could change the rules he did it. After all these years of hinting that he didn't like high school players coming into the draft, after all his interviews in the media about this subject, he lived up to his word. He wasn't simply blowing smoke up people's butts. He accomplished this despite resistance and despite so many people in the media crying about the "injustice" of it all. He accomplished it despite the fact that probably 95% of the posts on message boards that I've ever come across said he had no chance of getting this done. It wasn't perfect. He didn't get the 20 age limit. But he got something. Deal with it. Now lets see if the NCAA can step up to the plate and do its share. Perhaps it can go similiar to the baseball route and try to have kids sign contracts that they will have to stay in school for at least two years (baseball I think has three year contract).
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 12:44:41 GMT -5
Well, all praises due to David Stern, great leader of the NBA. Rescuing high school gyms from NBA scouts. As Vern Lundquist would say, "What a Man!!" So I guess those NBA scouts will be replaced by NBDL scouts, technically speaking?
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