MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 12, 2018 2:43:29 GMT -5
www.theringer.com/2018/4/9/17213792/trevon-duval-duke-one-and-doneI've read that there may be some inaccuracies in this writeup but nonetheless I think it delivers perfectly some harsh truths about what can happen to 5-star players when picking a school that will bring in multiple 5-star guys in the same class and all of the following classes. My favorite parts: Duval, like Jackson, would have been better going to a college program built around him. The best-case scenario is the career arc of Kris Dunn, another hyperathletic guard with a shaky jumper. Dunn shot only 39.8 percent from the field as a freshman at Providence, but he still averaged 27.2 minutes per game for a middle-of-the-pack Big East team. Over the next three years, Dunn grew as a shooter, decision-maker, and defender, becoming the leader of the program. He went from shooting 28.6 percent from 3 on 0.6 attempts a game as a freshman to 37.2 percent from 3 on 3.4 attempts a game as a redshirt junior. That growth helped Dunn become the no. 5 overall pick in the 2016 draft.AND Duval and Trent will almost certainly end up spending a lot of time in the G League, where former McDonald’s All Americans are a dime a dozen. If they can refine their games and polish their skill sets, they have the talent to play in the NBA. However, talent is not enough once you get to the professional level. Just ask former Kentucky guards Marquis Teague, Archie Goodwin, and Aaron Harrison, who have spent most of their professional careers bouncing back-and-forth between the G League and the NBA after declaring for the draft as underclassmen. Teague and Goodwin were both late-first-round picks, but neither got the opportunity to grow as a primary ball handler in the NBA.Been my viewpoint for years that potentially good players can harm themselves by trying to join SUPER teams in which they can get lost rather than develop. And the point about a bunch of McDAAs not becoming regular NBA participants exemplifies how rankings often don't mean much, particularly if you don't pick a program that will each you and spend enough time there to let those lessons sink in.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Jun 12, 2018 4:49:47 GMT -5
Fit and opportunity matter, especially at the stage that a kid's game is still growing.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 12, 2018 8:02:01 GMT -5
One has to wonder when Krzyzewski will approach a point of no return at Duke. His salary is $7.2 million and he makes an estimated $2-3 million from executive education and various summer activities that he runs at Cameron Indoor Stadium. Any coach that's been somewhere 38 years has opposition within the trustees, and at some point, running a one and done program will get pushback from the academic side of the house. If John Thompson was recruiting players to stay a year and ditch the spring semester, there would certainly be discussions at the Board of Directors level.
At 71, Krzyzewski could have retired ten years ago and become an elder statesman, but he's not leaving without a fight nor a succession plan (see "Boeheim, Jim") and coaches that don't plan an exit have an exit eventually planned for them.
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Post by iheartdurenbros on Jun 12, 2018 8:48:00 GMT -5
I have a friend who is an academic dean at Duke and Coach K is institutionalized there, despite faculty push back. It is just not happening there. Would faculty push back at Georgetown have effect on basketball if it became OAD mill? I suspect GU faculty would be more effective. But the real question would be whether the Georgetown coach could ever achieve the sustained success that Coach K has and achieve his cult-like status. That seems improbable.
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2ndRyan
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Post by 2ndRyan on Jun 12, 2018 8:59:53 GMT -5
I remember at one of the Duke UNLV championship match-ups Duke students held up a sign to the UNLV team saying "welcome, Fellow Students". That seems to ring a bit hollowly now.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 12, 2018 9:45:14 GMT -5
At 71, Krzyzewski could have retired ten years ago and become an elder statesman, but he's not leaving without a fight nor a succession plan (see "Boeheim, Jim") and coaches that don't plan an exit have an exit eventually planned for them. The problem with this position is that winning cures all. I am sure Coach K does have some enemies at Duke, I am sure some of the academic-side administrators and professors think the focus on basketball is silly and/or ridiculous (and I know that's almost certainly true at Georgetown, too), but the fact is that they have probably the best basketball coach of the modern era, at least when it comes to winning. Things come crumbling down when a coach begins losing. Given Coach K's history and his ability to recruit at the highest level, it's hard to see Duke stumbling to such a degree that he's shown the exit (they have the, 1, 2, and 3rd highest recruits coming in this coming year). I also feel that if Coach K got to the point where he couldn't win, he would likely step aside, rather than losing multiples seasons and then getting fired. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jun 12, 2018 9:48:17 GMT -5
At 71, Krzyzewski could have retired ten years ago and become an elder statesman, but he's not leaving without a fight nor a succession plan (see "Boeheim, Jim") and coaches that don't plan an exit have an exit eventually planned for them. The problem with this position is that winning cures all. I am sure Coach K does have some enemies at Duke, I am sure some of the academic-side administrators and professors think the focus on basketball is silly and/or ridiculous (and I know that's almost certainly true at Georgetown, too), but the fact is that they have probably the best basketball coach of the modern era, at least when it comes to winning. Things come crumbling down when a coach begins losing. Given Coach K's history and his ability to recruit at the highest level, it's hard to see Duke stumbling to such a degree that he's shown the exit (they have the, 1, 2, and 3rd highest recruits coming in this coming year). I also feel that if Coach K got to the point where he couldn't win, he would likely step aside, rather than losing multiples seasons and then getting fired. Nah. If he had a bad run of games, he'd just take a leave with "back issues" and return the next season after using the time away for recruiting. |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 12, 2018 11:50:25 GMT -5
I remember at one of the Duke UNLV championship match-ups Duke students held up a sign to the UNLV team saying "welcome, Fellow Students". That seems to ring a bit hollowly now. That may have been a nod to the pre-Cameron Crazies known as the BOG ("Bunch of Guys"), who were a residential non-fraternity along Duke's frat dorms in the 1970's and 1980's, as frats at Duke had sections in dorms not houses. Think of it as 4th Copley in the late 1970's/early 1980's. In a 1983 game vs. Maryland, BOG flooded the floor at Cameron Indoor Stadium with panties and some other indiscreet adult items in the direction of Herman Veal, a Maryland forward who was accused at the time of assaulting a coed. It earned a public rebuke from the then-president of Duke, Terry Sanford, who famously wrote to the student newspaper that Duke students should be more clever than that. The following week vs. UNC, BOG held up a sign for TV which read "Welcome, Fellow Scholars", put aside the booing of the UNC intros for cheers of "Hi Mike!" "Hi Dean!" etc. and traded "You Su@$!" ref chants for "We Beg To Differ!". Well, that basically won over Dick Vitale and the ACC media that had called Duke to task versus Maryland and the Duke fans began to be known for being a cut above their peers. The media adoration of the Cameron crowd (as compared to, say, the Reynolds Coliseum crowd for NC State, every bit as passionate) endures to this day. |
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jun 12, 2018 13:17:15 GMT -5
I was at Duke in the late 80's and the story of that UNC game was a well-told tale. I believe that when UNC shot free throws the Duke students were silent, but they held up a sign that said "Please Miss." Gad, I dislike Duke basketball.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 12, 2018 13:33:22 GMT -5
It depends. Fit is a big thing.
You can look at it at both sides. Playing behind or practicing against the best talent doesn't hurt either, when trying to get to the next level. You might also get better looks when there are several options on the floor with you, as opposed to being the man as a freshman. You also could learn some humility and playing wither great talents as a team. Doesn't hurt Golden State. That seems to be the way the NBA is going with superteams.
Rankings are a crap shoot. Let's be honest, despite their rannkings, did Duval and Trent look like surefire NBA talent? Watched a few of their games this year, and the best players on the court for them were two frontcourt guys.
Most 5-star guys with ideas of going to the NBA after 1 year, aren't finished products anyway. NBA doesn't mind wasting picks on potential. They are going to go regardless.
Reading up on Dunn, had injuries early on his career, no? How much did that play a part in him staying longer and instead of leaving after one year?
Looking over the article, are guys actually pushed out? How does that work for say a player like Grayson allen who stays 4 years vs. guys like Trent or Duval?
Even in the situation when you are the only incoming 5-star, it is really difficult to come out a polished player in 1 year of time. 2 years is not enough for most players. Iverson was still raw.
With College you get more structure. You are around your peers. Coaches are on you and in your face. With coaches like Cooley and Wright, you will definitely get that development.
In the NBA, you are a man now and on your own. At 19-20, self-driven, work habits are most likely not at their optimal levels. Probably what happens to a lot of these players and why they get lost in the shuffle in the pros.
Development?
Not sure how much can a 5-star really develop in 1 year.
Showcasing?
Yeah, you get will get the opportunity if you are the best talent on a lesser team and play for a coach to let you do your thing. Even it is a bad team, it won't hurt your stock like Fultz.
Maybe it is easier to get exposed as the only incoming 5 star on a lesser team and harder to really shine on superteam of incoming 5 stars?
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hoyas315
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Post by hoyas315 on Jun 15, 2018 14:58:05 GMT -5
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 27, 2018 9:45:13 GMT -5
Good read...
While Carter's mom really comes across as beyond ignorant to me in her complaints about the NCAA and comparing it to slavery (arghh smh).. .Her son Had financial options & could have skipped college and got paid out of high school is just one of many reasons she comes across as idiotic. This article fleshes out her real anger as she goes at Coach K & his staff on her son's way out the door...
If anyone should be angry it should be Trevon Duval and his family. Imagine if Duval would have gone to Seton Hall and played with their Seniors and Myles Powell last season. He also wouldn't have been recruited past and pushed out the door and could have really had time to develop his game going forward.
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justsaying
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Post by justsaying on Jun 27, 2018 17:37:23 GMT -5
I agree with her (Mrs Carter) in the sense that if your word was given as "X" then as we teach our young ones they should be able to expect some working of "X" to happen. Many suitors were probably lined up for the services of this person and what was told and what is is totally different then possible they would have made another choice. I get her frustrations if lying appears to be the norm. In her reference (slavery) if the person no longer has a choice because of deception in this case then they are performing services not necessarily out of want and desire but out of a sense of forced obligation. As a parent I would have been very frustrated as well.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 27, 2018 17:44:45 GMT -5
I agree with her (Mrs Carter) in the sense that if your word was given as "X" then as we teach our young ones they should be able to expect some working of "X" to happen. Many suitors were probably lined up for the services of this person and what was told and what is is totally different then possible they would have made another choice. I get her frustrations if lying appears to be the norm. In her reference (slavery) if the person no longer has a choice because of deception in this case then they are performing services not necessarily out of want and desire but out of a sense of forced obligation. As a parent I would have been very frustrated as well. The likening of a year in Durham playing basketball to slavery is stupid, offensive and ridiculous. Case closed. |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Jun 27, 2018 20:19:36 GMT -5
It can be exploitive even if it is not slavery.
Case re-opened
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kbones17
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Post by kbones17 on Jun 27, 2018 21:07:27 GMT -5
Good read... While Carter's mom really comes across as beyond ignorant to me in her complaints about the NCAA and comparing it to slavery (arghh smh).. .Her son Had financial options & could have skipped college and got paid out of high school is just one of many reasons she comes across as idiotic. This article fleshes out her real anger as she goes at Coach K & his staff on her son's way out the door... If anyone should be angry it should be Trevon Duval and his family. Imagine if Duval would have gone to Seton Hall and played with their Seniors and Myles Powell last season. He also wouldn't have been recruited past and pushed out the door and could have really had time to develop his game going forward. I can appreciate that she is calling out Coach K for basically lying to them. Its interesting the article discusses Harvard for a one and done someday, as if there isn’t tons of options between Duke (one and done factory) and Ivy League. Honestly, I love seeing articles out there like this because hopefully it gives pause to some 5 stars moving forward who see through the one and done pitch of the bluebloods. |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jun 27, 2018 22:15:59 GMT -5
Good read... While Carter's mom really comes across as beyond ignorant to me in her complaints about the NCAA and comparing it to slavery (arghh smh).. .Her son Had financial options & could have skipped college and got paid out of high school is just one of many reasons she comes across as idiotic. This article fleshes out her real anger as she goes at Coach K & his staff on her son's way out the door... If anyone should be angry it should be Trevon Duval and his family. Imagine if Duval would have gone to Seton Hall and played with their Seniors and Myles Powell last season. He also wouldn't have been recruited past and pushed out the door and could have really had time to develop his game going forward. I can appreciate that she is calling out Coach K for basically lying to them. Its interesting the article discusses Harvard for a one and done someday, as if there isn’t tons of options between Duke (one and done factory) and Ivy League. Honestly, I love seeing articles out there like this because hopefully it gives pause to some 5 stars moving forward who see through the one and done pitch of the bluebloods. The rumors of Bagley's re-class to 2017 were very strong last summer, the Carter's had plenty of time to move on from Duke if they wanted to.. Coming out now & saying the "rug was pulled out from under them" after their son was the 7th pick in the draft is kinda silly to me.. Folks can have complaints about Coach K's recruiting style but the Carter's shouldn't be leading the way imho.. |
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Post by ewingitrust on Jun 27, 2018 22:36:09 GMT -5
I have no doubt that other schools are using the duval, wendell carter situations as recruiting ammo to compete against Duke
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jun 27, 2018 22:56:28 GMT -5
I have no doubt that other schools are using the duval, wendell carter situations as recruiting ammo to compete against Duke What can really be said about either kid? Carter played 30 minutes per game and ended up being the 7th player chosen in the draft.. Duval played 30 minutes per game and should have stayed another year, he’s better than Tre Jones imo.. |
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Post by ewingitrust on Jun 27, 2018 23:26:47 GMT -5
I have no doubt that other schools are using the duval, wendell carter situations as recruiting ammo to compete against Duke What can really be said about either kid? Carter played 30 minutes per game and ended up being the 7th player chosen in the draft.. Duval played 30 minutes per game and should have stayed another year, he’s better than Tre Jones imo.. promises not being kept as far as roster moves/over recruiting...lack of improved development as the season goes. My main broader point is if there's perceived chinks in duke's armor...schools will pounce to capitalize |
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