Disconnect b/t Gtown basketball persona and academics

[nbhoya]

As a bit newer Hoya, I am wondering how the Georgetown basketball persona of the 1980s of "tough, African-American, social warrior" was developed in stark contrast to the Georgetown academic persona of "elite, Catholic, white"?

If you look at Duke, its academic persona and athletic personas are mirror images of one another. How did Georgetown head in the opposite direction? I realize JT played a big part in it, but are there any other reasons?

[TC]

Why are you stuck on preconceptions of programs from the 1980's that really don't apply today?

[GIGAFAN99]

Duke students drop out after one year to get a job? That would be perfectly aligned.

[michaelgrahmstylie]

First, I think you need to go back and do a little homework. Not trying to be facetious here, but read up on JT2, that era of college basketball, how the university embraced his approach and philosophy, what he was able to accomplish, his stance on education, graduation, and life after basketball, etc.

I will say this much; I think you will find that it was not just about "tough persona", "social justice", and basketball.

[Elvado]

If you want some real historical perspective, find the early 1980 or 81 SI article about “Saint John” and then see how quickly that changed when he started winning big and was soon referred to as the “Idi Amin” of college basketball. By 1984, Curry Kirkpatrick was openly referring to GU basketball as a paramilitary operation.

Funny thing was, nothing Big John was doing had changed. He simply would not kiss the media’s ass.

[michaelgrahmstylie]

I can remember those days when JT2 and GU basketball came in for a lot of criticism from the media. The words that were bandied about most frequently were "dirty" and "closed". Dirty in the sense that the Hoyas would walk on you, step over you, stomp you to win. closed, because JT would not foolishly make his very young players available to the media right away.
The world of college basketball had never seen anything like Hoya Paranoia before.
What they never commented on was JTs' insistence that players graduate and view life as bigger than basketball. JT2 became the protector, champion, and nurturer of quite a few young black males that society could care less about. These guys had an on the road tutor that was elevated to assistant coach's status. Education was always the key with JT!

[72hoya]

Duke’s coach was a white man who sucked up to the press. Georgetown had a coach who was black and didn’t kiss Feinstein’s ass. Explains it all. I suggest you do some reading about racism in America. And I am a 67year old man who is about as white as you can get.

[DFW HOYA]

May 30, 2018 10:48:44 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

I can remember those days when JT2 and GU basketball came in for a lot of criticism from the media. The words that were bandied about most frequently were "dirty" and "closed". Dirty in the sense that the Hoyas would walk on you, step over you, stomp you to win. closed, because JT would not foolishly make his very young players available to the media right away.
The world of college basketball had never seen anything like Hoya Paranoia before.

Basketball has long had coaches that did it their way. Frank McGuire's South Carolina teams were a rough and tumble group whose style was not well received in ACC circles. Al McGuire's Marquette teams were as street-tough and hard nosed as they got, and their coach didn't get along well with others. The Warriors went 23-3 in 1970 but Al McGuire was still irritated about the seeding MU got in the 1969 tournament (at 23-4, placed in a second round game vs. Kentucky) and declined a bid to the NCAA (which, since then, is no longer allowed) and won the NIT title instead. And when it came to dirty, Bill Musselman's Minnesota teams set a bar that has not been seen since.

www.startribune.com/hoops-brawl-made-for-one-nasty-night-in-u-s-sports-history/411419775/

None of these coaches, of course, had the national spotlight John Thompson faced. The NCAA's were not regularly broadcast until 1975 and TV coverage was spotty in many conferences before ESPN. A lot of fans outside their region were left to follow these teams in Sports Illustrated rather than game to game. Georgetown was the beneficiary of significantly increased media coverage in the 1980's that a lot of coaches didn't have before, and that cut both ways.

[michaelgrahmstylie]

May 30, 2018 11:54:50 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

May 30, 2018 10:48:44 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

I can remember those days when JT2 and GU basketball came in for a lot of criticism from the media. The words that were bandied about most frequently were "dirty" and "closed". Dirty in the sense that the Hoyas would walk on you, step over you, stomp you to win. closed, because JT would not foolishly make his very young players available to the media right away.
The world of college basketball had never seen anything like Hoya Paranoia before.

Basketball has long had coaches that did it their way. Frank McGuire's South Carolina teams were a rough and tumble group whose style was not well received in ACC circles. Al McGuire's Marquette teams were as street-tough and hard nosed as they got, and their coach didn't get along well with others. The Warriors went 23-3 in 1970 but Al McGuire was still irritated about the seeding MU got in the 1969 tournament (at 23-4, placed in a second round game vs. Kentucky) and declined a bid to the NCAA (which, since then, is no longer allowed) and won the NIT title instead. And when it came to dirty, Bill Musselman's Minnesota teams set a bar that has not been seen since.

www.startribune.com/hoops-brawl-made-for-one-nasty-night-in-u-s-sports-history/411419775/

None of these coaches, of course, had the national spotlight John Thompson faced. The NCAA's were not regularly broadcast until 1975 and TV coverage was spotty in many conferences before ESPN. A lot of fans outside their region were left to follow these teams in Sports Illustrated rather than game to game. Georgetown was the beneficiary of significantly increased media coverage in the 1980's that a lot of coaches didn't have before, and that cut both ways.

Wow! DFW, that is great excavation there, buddy. I have never seen that one. I became hooked on GU basketball when I came to this country and learned about JT and his philosophy. Patrick Ewing, a fellow West Indian, as the center of the program, was all I needed to become a die hard fan. There was no turning back--or away from the Hoyas from that point on.

[EtomicB]

May 30, 2018 10:04:53 GMT -5 Elvado said:

If you want some real historical perspective, find the early 1980 or 81 SI article about “Saint John” and then see how quickly that changed when he started winning big and was soon referred to as the “Idi Amin” of college basketball. By 1984, Curry Kirkpatrick was openly referring to GU basketball as a paramilitary operation.

Funny thing was, nothing Big John was doing had changed. He simply would not kiss the media’s ass.

Very good read..

www.si.com/vault/1980/12/01/825202/the-gospel-according-to-john-georgetown-basketball-was-white-and-wan-before-john-thompson-came-in-to-recruit-blacks-and-to-preach-discipline-and-education

[Elvado]

May 30, 2018 15:04:04 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

May 30, 2018 10:04:53 GMT -5 Elvado said:

If you want some real historical perspective, find the early 1980 or 81 SI article about “Saint John” and then see how quickly that changed when he started winning big and was soon referred to as the “Idi Amin” of college basketball. By 1984, Curry Kirkpatrick was openly referring to GU basketball as a paramilitary operation.

Funny thing was, nothing Big John was doing had changed. He simply would not kiss the media’s ass.

Very good read..

www.si.com/vault/1980/12/01/825202/the-gospel-according-to-john-georgetown-basketball-was-white-and-wan-before-john-thompson-came-in-to-recruit-blacks-and-to-preach-discipline-and-education

Great find. It is a fascinating read. Amazing how the tone shifted inside of four years.

[calhoya]

I will openly acknowledge my bias for Big John. While no doubt a flawed person in many ways, the man helped raise important issues that were not popular at a time when the image of a very large, well-spoken, defiant black man was not welcomed by the powers that be in the NCAA, the media or society as a whole. I know that at times he warranted criticism for his style, but he became much more than a basketball coach to people like my father who admired him greatly for the message he was trying to deliver. There is nothing comparable today as the coaching world is now widely integrated and the concept of the "student athlete" has been largely diluted by the realities of what college basketball has become.

[iowa80]

I still remember the (approximate) day that I heard Al Dutch was coming to Georgetown. Finally . . a local, African-American, legit high school Parade All-American! We've arrived.

[dchoya72]

May 30, 2018 15:04:04 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

May 30, 2018 10:04:53 GMT -5 Elvado said:

If you want some real historical perspective, find the early 1980 or 81 SI article about “Saint John” and then see how quickly that changed when he started winning big and was soon referred to as the “Idi Amin” of college basketball. By 1984, Curry Kirkpatrick was openly referring to GU basketball as a paramilitary operation.

Funny thing was, nothing Big John was doing had changed. He simply would not kiss the media’s ass.

Very good read..

www.si.com/vault/1980/12/01/825202/the-gospel-according-to-john-georgetown-basketball-was-white-and-wan-before-john-thompson-came-in-to-recruit-blacks-and-to-preach-discipline-and-education

Ive been following Georgetown basketball since Big John Thompson arrived. I never knew this stoty..story and it is impressive! I love his tradition and what he made Georgetown basketball. I am also very excited about what Patrick is doing, rebuildimg the team. Big John set a great precedent. Go Hoyas!

[michaelgrahmstylie]

May 30, 2018 17:19:14 GMT -5 dchoya72 said:

May 30, 2018 15:04:04 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Very good read..

www.si.com/vault/1980/12/01/825202/the-gospel-according-to-john-georgetown-basketball-was-white-and-wan-before-john-thompson-came-in-to-recruit-blacks-and-to-preach-discipline-and-education

Ive been following Georgetown basketball since Big John Thompson arrived. I never knew this stoty..story and it is impressive! I love his tradition and what he made Georgetown basketball. I am also very excited about what Patrick is doing, rebuildimg the team. Big John set a great precedent. Go Hoyas!

This was a delightful read. Love the revelation and honesty of the top brass:

And no one said, "O.K., let's get us a big black coach to show we aren't segregationists, and maybe he'll bring in some big black players and we can win a few games"?

"We don't get things sorted out that well around here," Father Healy says cheerfully. "I think it's taking too much credit to claim that what happened came about because of a farsighted policy. What I think happened is that an intelligent black man, with a clear idea of what he wanted, has weaved in and out between a lot of confused honkies and has accomplished things that have benefited both parties."

LOL! Where is Glide Hoya when you need him?

[michaelgrahmstylie]

Oh, what a delightful read! Somebody please hand me some Kleenex.

[This Just In]

May 30, 2018 17:51:26 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

May 30, 2018 17:19:14 GMT -5 dchoya72 said:

Ive been following Georgetown basketball since Big John Thompson arrived. I never knew this stoty..story and it is impressive! I love his tradition and what he made Georgetown basketball. I am also very excited about what Patrick is doing, rebuildimg the team. Big John set a great precedent. Go Hoyas!

This was a delightful read. Love the revelation and honesty of the top brass:

And no one said, "O.K., let's get us a big black coach to show we aren't segregationists, and maybe he'll bring in some big black players and we can win a few games"?

"We don't get things sorted out that well around here," Father Healy says cheerfully. "I think it's taking too much credit to claim that what happened came about because of a farsighted policy. What I think happened is that an intelligent black man, with a clear idea of what he wanted, has weaved in and out between a lot of confused honkies and has accomplished things that have benefited both parties."

LOL! Where is Glide Hoya when you need him?

I think he is still banned from posting on the board.

[Cambridge]

May 30, 2018 15:04:04 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Very good read..

www.si.com/vault/1980/12/01/825202/the-gospel-according-to-john-georgetown-basketball-was-white-and-wan-before-john-thompson-came-in-to-recruit-blacks-and-to-preach-discipline-and-education

What a great read. Loved this quote from Steve Martin:

Beyond telling them loyally that he thinks Georgetown has the best program in the country, [Steve] Martin says he warns them that wherever they go, "look out for the cheaters. I tell them that if the man comes around talking about a little extra, maybe helping them get a nice car or a nice place to live, they should walk away because he has just told them he is a cheater. It may sound right then like he is cheating for them, but if he does that he will cheat against them, too. If they go to his school he's the kind that's going to put them in a P.E. class, tell them they haven't got time for the hard stuff, that he doesn't want them to think about anything but basketball. He'll cheat them out of their education, which is the only important thing they're being paid. That nice car will be junk before their four years are over."

[HoyaRejuveNation85]

Great find/recollection, Elvado. Fun article and astute point about how while JT never changed, the perception of him sure did.

[seaweed]

"We're like a military unit that has been through a lot of fire together. Mr. Thompson is the fire."