This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 3, 2018 14:51:24 GMT -5
I saw this routine last season in the pre game warm-up against Gtown in DC.. I've seen a lot of warm up drills but nothing as precise or detailed as what Nova was doing, it was easy to see why the moves came so natural to them in the game.. Recruiting is recruiting but at the end of the day folks have to go with what they have so you better be sure they're the best they can be.. Every time they threw a pass to one another throughout the workout, they always threw a 2-handed bounce pass. No matter what. Shooting drills, running offense, it didn’t matter. 2-handed bounce pass. And every time they got a rebound or picked up a loose ball – every time – they grabbed it on a 2-foot jump stop, and then pivoted twice before they passed the ball. Every single time. If a ball bounced away, somebody ran it down, jump-stopped, pivoted, and then threw a bounce pass. They were so technical and so fundamental it was scary, almost cult-like. This would explain how even against good defensive teams like Kansas, West Virginia and Michigan, Nova can still create passing lanes and space for shots.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 3, 2018 14:51:48 GMT -5
I saw this routine last season in the pre game warm-up against Gtown in DC.. I've seen a lot of warm up drills but nothing as precise or detailed as what Nova was doing, it was easy to see why the moves came so natural to them in the game.. Recruiting is recruiting but at the end of the day folks have to go with what they have so you better be sure they're the best they can be.. Every time they threw a pass to one another throughout the workout, they always threw a 2-handed bounce pass. No matter what. Shooting drills, running offense, it didn’t matter. 2-handed bounce pass. And every time they got a rebound or picked up a loose ball – every time – they grabbed it on a 2-foot jump stop, and then pivoted twice before they passed the ball. Every single time. If a ball bounced away, somebody ran it down, jump-stopped, pivoted, and then threw a bounce pass. They were so technical and so fundamental it was scary, almost cult-like.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 3, 2018 15:04:26 GMT -5
Nova's mentality is what impresses the most. They just have an aura about them in how they play. You can just sense it watching it on tv. The hunger and tenacity is just amazing. And then there is Jay Wright, who acts like it is no big deal and with such graciousness towards his opponents. Had it been any other team, Michigan probably wins that game last night. Big picture-wise, Wright didn't build this thing overnight. This is his 2nd phase of success with Nova. After his 1st phase he took a dive and had a losing season. Then there is Beilein. Who pretty much hired a defensive coordinator to his staff for this year. Two of the best coaches, still learning and growing with the game. We get so caught up at just getting to that level, there is so much more involved staying at that high level of play. Do you see any parallels between Jay Wright's and JTIII's struggles, maybe if given more time, JTIII may have been able to right the sinking ship? Not really. I think Jay Wright has always understood he was as a coach and built the Villanova program from the ground up. He got them to the Final Four similar to what he is doing now: small ball, great guard-play. At some point, even the good coaches, lose their way. I think Wright lost his way for a bit, and then came back and then some. I think that low-point helped in that complacency won't creep in. You can see it with Nova now. The sense of urgency by the team despite their success is amazing. With III, he never found himself as a coach at this level. Well, he was an Ivy league coach. A very good one. Might have eclipsed Pete Carril's records had III stayed at Princeton. He just never grew into a consistent and comfortable groove as a coach during his time at Georgetown. He came to Georgetown with 2 recruits to work with in Hibbert and Green (future NBA'ers). Solid team morale, bench guy in Tyler Crawford. Solid supporting cast in Cook, Bowman, and Owens. Then he adds Sapp, Wallace, Summers,Ewing, Jr which made for a Sweet Sixteen and Final Four appearance. Quick success in just year 3. After that, not much else in terms of NCAA tournament success. After that III was trying anything to figure out what works with recruiting, coaching staff, style of players and style of play,etc. It eventually caught up with him, especially with the new rule changes. One losing season is tolerable. Two losing seasons you just can't ignore. I didn't want to see him go, but understood why he was let go. I think he is a solid coach. Would love to see him coach again. I mean, the guy at Loyola-Chicago was fired in the past. You never know.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Apr 3, 2018 15:11:27 GMT -5
I am intrigued by the conference matters discussion. If a team in the conference wins a title or has a long run in the tournament it matters to the rest of the conference from a financial, RPI, tv, and status standpoint. I've been watching what has been going on in the WCC with Gonzaga the past few years, but also particularly this year as they have been looking at moving to the WAC (along with BYU, which didn't want to take its football program into the WAC as they want it to stay as it is). Gonzaga brings money and attention into the WCC with its tournament runs, which its shares with the conference. The conference lost its tv coverage, but Gonzaga games get picked up by ESPN or CBS when they play out of conference highlight games or internal games of interest (St. Mary's the past few years). The WCC isn't that strong a conference outside Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU and St. Mary's and BYU have problems with playing in conference hurting their RPI. This spring Gonzaga and BYU looked at moving out of the WCC to a more football focussed WAC. The WAC has a regional tv contract for basketball, but the focus of the other programs is not on basketball. Looking at the situation the WCC modified the revenue sharing so Gonzaga and other teams who make the NCAA tournament can keep more money. They also cut back the number of conference games (to help RPI) required so there are now 2 more spots to pick-up games with teams with better RPI than conference teams. The WCC also is giving a bye to the top 2 teams in their conference tournament so they start playing in their final four. The aim of the WCC is to hopefully get two teams into the NCAA tournament, which has happened only a few times in recent years with Gonzaga and St. Mary's. These shifts not only benefit Gonzaga as well as BYU and St. Mary's, but they help the rest of the conference get exposure and improve their revenues. If the WCC can get 2 teams into the NCAA tournament that is more revenue to spread around to the other teams so they can improve as well. This is similar to the Big East. Having teams go in to the NCAA Tournament helps all teams in the Big East as it is the "plus" league in the Power 5 plus. Keeping the number of teams up that get invited to the Tourney helps the whole Big East financially, but also with exposure. St. John's knocking off the top of the conference really helped exposure for St. John's, but also a leveling of the conference where any team could have the potential to go big in any game. That sort of intrigue helps grow interest. It also brings the whole conference up. Note: Gonzaga and BYU are considering the Mountain West (the old WAC), not what passes as today's WAC, which includes California Baptist, Cal State-Bakersfield, Chicago State, Grand Canyon, Missouri-Kansas City, New Mexico State, Seattle; Texas-Rio Grande Valley, and Utah Valley. - AdminGonzaga announced that they are not leaving the WCC for the Mountain West.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2018 15:18:49 GMT -5
At one time, I did see the parallels between Wright and JT3. And during the final years of his tenure, I thought JT3 might be able to do it. In the end, we had given JT3 that time already. He needed to place more emphasis upon guard play and simply didn't do it in a timely fashion. He lost his fans and most importantly his players. Not sure anyone would have stayed last year if Ewing hadn't been hired. So JT3 didn't seize the moment as Jay Wright had. I think the main parallel is that Wright had a down set of years, in that he failed to make it past the first weekend of the tournament for six years (from 2010-2015). The difference, of course, is that Wright had one very poor season in 2012, and then bounced back pretty strongly. JT3 stumbled after 2013 (though arguably, the bounce back in 2015 to get a 4 seed was pretty good - it's what followed that was the problem), and never got his footing back. I would note, however, that a lot of fans would probably have a lot of difficulty with the period Villanova had from 2010 to 2013, where they didn't make it past the first weekend of the tournament, and their conference record was 24-30. In modern times, it seems that fans have a ton of impatience. Wright is a good example of where patience was worthwhile, in that he came back strongly in the new Big East. I disagree that JT3 lost his players - at least given what I know. I realize others disagree, but look at the effort the guys put in at games like JT3's last game at St. John's, and you didn't see a team that had given up. Would there have been an exodus if JT3 stayed? Very possible, but unless people here are insiders, I don't see how you can know that for sure. And, at least in the case of Agau, it sounded like he left because JT3 left. All that said, I do think it is a testament to Ewing that he kept everybody but Agau on board. You routinely see guys bail whenever a coaching change happens, and that did not happen here, and I think Ewing deserves a lot of credit for maintaining the core of the team, which will be key to our competing in 2018-2019 (along with Ewing's other recruits).
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 3, 2018 15:31:31 GMT -5
I thought Agau left the year before JT3 left. He didn't play JT3's final year, no?
I don't think III lost the players. I think III was lost himself trying to right the ship with little success the last 2 years. And players can sense that even though they might still have love for the guy.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2018 15:37:30 GMT -5
Yes, in fact 2016-2017 was the only year Agau played for Georgetown (he sat out a year before that as a transfer). And, I agree with you that JT3 struggled a lot to right the ship. Years from now, when nobody cares, I'd be curious to hear JT3's frank thoughts on what happened. I am not sure we will ever get that, but it would be interesting regardless.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 3, 2018 15:40:38 GMT -5
Ah, yeah you are right. That seemed ages ago for some reason.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 3, 2018 16:02:42 GMT -5
Doug Gottlieb and Colin Cowherd breaks down what they witnessed during Villanova's practices and the flaw in the recruitment process of Blue Blood programs.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 3, 2018 16:05:58 GMT -5
I thought Agau left the year before JT3 left. He didn't play JT3's final year, no? I don't think III lost the players. I think III was lost himself trying to right the ship with little success the last 2 years. And players can sense that even though they might still have love for the guy. Agau loved III. He left when they got rid of III. III didn't now what to do once they changed the rules with Freedom of Movement. He no longer could play the physical man to man (FG% defense) that was his trademark and was necessary to limit scoring to make his Princeton Offense work (which was low scoring in itself). Without the stifling defense he was faced with a situation where he had to outscore the opponent and that wasn't possible when you are eating clock to look for the most efficient shot.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 3, 2018 16:06:43 GMT -5
You have seen the program thru several decades, how far away do you think the program is from getting to a 2005/2006 season? There are certainly parallels between 2004-05 and 2017-18--new coach, freshmen of impact, etc., which can give hope for 2018-19. This was a 2005-06 team that was 11-4 heading into the Duke game and never looked back, until they hit Davidson in 2008. But look at the great 2005-06 non-conference schedule. I can't emphasize this enough-- this is what prepared the Hoyas to beat Duke on Jan. 21, 2006: at Navy at James Madison Vanderbilt at Oregon at Illinois Fairfield Stetson Savannah St. Colgate at Sun Bowl Tourn at UTEP in Sun Bowl Tourn Will Ewing commit to a challenging 2018-19 schedule, or will he listen to those familiar faces in the building who'll tell him to just keep on playing as many MEAC's as he can, because all he needs is nine Big East wins to get into the tournament? For the record, Villanova's 2017-18 schedule is below. Not a Coppin State in the bunch. Columbia Nicholls St. at Lafayette vs. Western Kentucky (Bahamas) vs. Tennessee (Bahamas) vs. Northern Iowa (Bahamas) Pennsylvania at St. Joseph's vs. Gonzaga (MSG) LaSalle at Temple Hofstra Although obviously light years ahead of last season's schedule, not sure the 05-06 slate was "great"; only Duke and Illinois made the NCAA's. But we all agree that next season needs to be a major improvement - hopefully having more talent and depth, plus a full season under his belt, will give Patrick a different scheduling philosophy.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 3, 2018 16:08:15 GMT -5
I thought Agau left the year before JT3 left. He didn't play JT3's final year, no? I don't think III lost the players. I think III was lost himself trying to right the ship with little success the last 2 years. And players can sense that even though they might still have love for the guy. Agau loved III. He left when they got rid of III. III didn't now what to do once they changed the rules with Freedom of Movement. He no longer could play the physical man to man (FG% defense) that was his trademark and was necessary to limit scoring to make his Princeton Offense work (which was low scoring in itself). Without the stifling defense he was faced with a situation where he had to outscore the opponent and that wasn't possible when you are eating clock to look for the most efficient shot. I guess I can see the loyalty slant, but Akoy could have had a contributing role last season.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 3, 2018 16:10:58 GMT -5
At one time, I did see the parallels between Wright and JT3. And during the final years of his tenure, I thought JT3 might be able to do it. In the end, we had given JT3 that time already. He needed to place more emphasis upon guard play and simply didn't do it in a timely fashion. He lost his fans and most importantly his players. Not sure anyone would have stayed last year if Ewing hadn't been hired. So JT3 didn't seize the moment as Jay Wright had. I think the main parallel is that Wright had a down set of years, in that he failed to make it past the first weekend of the tournament for six years (from 2010-2015). The difference, of course, is that Wright had one very poor season in 2012, and then bounced back pretty strongly. JT3 stumbled after 2013 (though arguably, the bounce back in 2015 to get a 4 seed was pretty good - it's what followed that was the problem), and never got his footing back. I would note, however, that a lot of fans would probably have a lot of difficulty with the period Villanova had from 2010 to 2013, where they didn't make it past the first weekend of the tournament, and their conference record was 24-30. In modern times, it seems that fans have a ton of impatience. Wright is a good example of where patience was worthwhile, in that he came back strongly in the new Big East. I disagree that JT3 lost his players - at least given what I know. I realize others disagree, but look at the effort the guys put in at games like JT3's last game at St. John's, and you didn't see a team that had given up. Would there have been an exodus if JT3 stayed? Very possible, but unless people here are insiders, I don't see how you can know that for sure. And, at least in the case of Agau, it sounded like he left because JT3 left. All that said, I do think it is a testament to Ewing that he kept everybody but Agau on board. You routinely see guys bail whenever a coaching change happens, and that did not happen here, and I think Ewing deserves a lot of credit for maintaining the core of the team, which will be key to our competing in 2018-2019 (along with Ewing's other recruits). The biggest things was the rules change (Freedom of Movement). Jay Wright was thrown a huge bone with the rules change because his 4 guard/small ball style, dribble penetrate with spacing and kick for the open 3 benefitted the most out of any style out there. The way to combat his style before the rules changes were to be really physical and impede the movement but that's no longer possible because it will result in a foul. So it's not that he revolutionized the game or adapted or anything like that. He was already playing this style and recruiting for this style. The single component that made his style lethal and unstoppable was the Freedom of Movement rules change. And vice versa for III. The rules changes really hurt the Princeton as addressed in other posts. That and the early eliminations (which Wright also had), led to worse recruits, lower morale and defections but at the core it was the rule changes that dooomed his system. He never did "figure it out" with the rules changes.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 3, 2018 18:08:38 GMT -5
I think the main parallel is that Wright had a down set of years, in that he failed to make it past the first weekend of the tournament for six years (from 2010-2015). The difference, of course, is that Wright had one very poor season in 2012, and then bounced back pretty strongly. JT3 stumbled after 2013 (though arguably, the bounce back in 2015 to get a 4 seed was pretty good - it's what followed that was the problem), and never got his footing back. I would note, however, that a lot of fans would probably have a lot of difficulty with the period Villanova had from 2010 to 2013, where they didn't make it past the first weekend of the tournament, and their conference record was 24-30. In modern times, it seems that fans have a ton of impatience. Wright is a good example of where patience was worthwhile, in that he came back strongly in the new Big East. I disagree that JT3 lost his players - at least given what I know. I realize others disagree, but look at the effort the guys put in at games like JT3's last game at St. John's, and you didn't see a team that had given up. Would there have been an exodus if JT3 stayed? Very possible, but unless people here are insiders, I don't see how you can know that for sure. And, at least in the case of Agau, it sounded like he left because JT3 left. All that said, I do think it is a testament to Ewing that he kept everybody but Agau on board. You routinely see guys bail whenever a coaching change happens, and that did not happen here, and I think Ewing deserves a lot of credit for maintaining the core of the team, which will be key to our competing in 2018-2019 (along with Ewing's other recruits). The biggest things was the rules change (Freedom of Movement). Jay Wright was thrown a huge bone with the rules change because his 4 guard/small ball style, dribble penetrate with spacing and kick for the open 3 benefitted the most out of any style out there. The way to combat his style before the rules changes were to be really physical and impede the movement but that's no longer possible because it will result in a foul. So it's not that he revolutionized the game or adapted or anything like that. He was already playing this style and recruiting for this style. The single component that made his style lethal and unstoppable was the Freedom of Movement rules change. And vice versa for III. The rules changes really hurt the Princeton as addressed in other posts. That and the early eliminations (which Wright also had), led to worse recruits, lower morale and defections but at the core it was the rule changes that dooomed his system. He never did "figure it out" with the rules changes. Wright went to 2 Sweet 16's, an Elite 8 & a Final Four prior to the freedom of movement rules, hard for me to pin a lot of his success to the new rules.. The Princeton offense requires more off the ball motion than most offenses so I don'e get why the new rules would have had a negative impact on it..
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Post by bicentennial on Apr 3, 2018 19:07:31 GMT -5
The biggest things was the rules change (Freedom of Movement). Jay Wright was thrown a huge bone with the rules change because his 4 guard/small ball style, dribble penetrate with spacing and kick for the open 3 benefitted the most out of any style out there. The way to combat his style before the rules changes were to be really physical and impede the movement but that's no longer possible because it will result in a foul. So it's not that he revolutionized the game or adapted or anything like that. He was already playing this style and recruiting for this style. The single component that made his style lethal and unstoppable was the Freedom of Movement rules change. And vice versa for III. The rules changes really hurt the Princeton as addressed in other posts. That and the early eliminations (which Wright also had), led to worse recruits, lower morale and defections but at the core it was the rule changes that dooomed his system. He never did "figure it out" with the rules changes. Wright went to 2 Sweet 16's, an Elite 8 & a Final Four prior to the freedom of movement rules, hard for me to pin a lot of his success to the new rules.. The Princeton offense requires more off the ball motion than most offenses so I don'e get why the new rules would have had a negative impact on it.. The freedom of movement rules favor the player moving with the ball but off the ball the switch to pack the line type defenses blocks cutting lanes unless you can stretch the zone with good three point shooting requiring faster closeouts. JTIII did not successfully improve player's three point shooting his last several years and opposing teams crowded the passing lanes preventing most back door cut passes. Without hand checking the defensive efficiency of JTIIIs teams plummeted and average points scored against GU increased dramatically as first two handed and later 1 handed checking became a foul.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 3, 2018 19:24:49 GMT -5
Agau loved III. He left when they got rid of III. III didn't now what to do once they changed the rules with Freedom of Movement. He no longer could play the physical man to man (FG% defense) that was his trademark and was necessary to limit scoring to make his Princeton Offense work (which was low scoring in itself). Without the stifling defense he was faced with a situation where he had to outscore the opponent and that wasn't possible when you are eating clock to look for the most efficient shot. I guess I can see the loyalty slant, but Akoy could have had a contributing role last season. He definitely would have been our best back up for Govan and could also play the 4. He probably felt his minutes would be limited behind Govan/Derrickon/Trey Mourning/Walker but as it turned out Mourning got injured so Akyo would have played alot. Still though our guards were the problem so we probably still don't make the tourney. As it is he didn't make the tourney anyway at SMU and his PT was limited over there as well.
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Post by bicentennial on Apr 3, 2018 19:25:17 GMT -5
Put differently the NCAA credits for the tournament by Conference: Big 12 - 3.19 Mil per school ACC - 2.35 Mil per school Big East - 2.18 Mil per school SEC - 1.92 Mil per school Big 10 - 1.44 Mil per school
From a Basketball standpoint the Pac 12 is below the Atlantic 10 and AAC.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 3, 2018 19:27:47 GMT -5
III didn't now what to do once they changed the rules with Freedom of Movement. He no longer could play the physical man to man (FG% defense) that was his trademark and was necessary to limit scoring to make his Princeton Offense work (which was low scoring in itself). Without the stifling defense he was faced with a situation where he had to outscore the opponent and that wasn't possible when you are eating clock to look for the most efficient shot. No, that wasn't possible because we were playing 2 or 3 vs. 5. JT3 recruited players who couldn't or wouldn't shoot, or couldn't play defense or couldn't play offense or were soft and lacked the hunger to be like what we saw last night from the Nova players. His players reflected JT3's personality. Yes, he got one or two good/great ones, but he didn't create a team or give it balance to build a consistently, successful program. Early departures, injuries, etc are realities of the game, not excuses. Good to great coaches prepare for those circumstances. Wright has at least 7 overly confident players. So, a program like Georgetown can have that too, but it depends on the head coach and his plan. JT3 got lost offensively and defensively. He couldn't adjust and couldn't understand how his teams were getting destroyed in the Tournament, or at least that's what he said in the post-games. In offense, he tried to shift to a more dynamic style and sold it as such to Tremont and other recruits. Yet, he couldn't sign any recruits, except Tremont (and Walker but he basically recruited GU - and he's one of my favorites for it), and had to fill the gaps with grads. Then, when things got tough during the year, JT3 shifted back to what he knew in offense, and Tremont had to start answering questions about if he could play in that type of offense. He looked awkward in that video interview. Duke was looking for a guard, Tremont saw the GU mess and made himself available. As to defense, you're right in that he never adjusted. I remember when some here (maybe the ones who have left) declared that the game had shifted to favor the bigger public schools over the smaller private schools. They couldn't have been more wrong and you don't see anyone making that argument anymore.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 3, 2018 19:36:34 GMT -5
Wright went to 2 Sweet 16's, an Elite 8 & a Final Four prior to the freedom of movement rules, hard for me to pin a lot of his success to the new rules.. The Princeton offense requires more off the ball motion than most offenses so I don'e get why the new rules would have had a negative impact on it.. The freedom of movement rules favor the player moving with the ball but off the ball the switch to pack the line type defenses blocks cutting lanes unless you can stretch the zone with good three point shooting requiring faster closeouts. JTIII did not successfully improve player's three point shooting his last several years and opposing teams crowded the passing lanes preventing most back door cut passes. Without hand checking the defensive efficiency of JTIIIs teams plummeted and average points scored against GU increased dramatically as first two handed and later 1 handed checking became a foul. Right on both counts though Pack Line is actually man to man (just that everyone who isn't defending the person with the ball cheats into the paint) Princeton offense doesn't score much. So you have to have a great defense to play the Princeton Offense. The III teams used to always lead the nation in FG% before freedom of movement. The only thing he could have really done is play a Pack Line defense (Stall Defense) with a Princeton Offense (Stall Offense). That could have worked. But it's easier said then done. Even Tony Bennett (who had a lifetime of training in Pack Line) needed 3-4 years to get that first class of guys having played Pack Line for 4 years. It's not something you can just snap your fingers and implement and III has zero training in it. Maybe with this step away from coaching he will have time to look from afar and implement a Pack Line with his Princeton when he coaches again.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 3, 2018 19:38:39 GMT -5
Wright went to 2 Sweet 16's, an Elite 8 & a Final Four prior to the freedom of movement rules, hard for me to pin a lot of his success to the new rules.. The Princeton offense requires more off the ball motion than most offenses so I don'e get why the new rules would have had a negative impact on it.. The freedom of movement rules favor the player moving with the ball but off the ball the switch to pack the line type defenses blocks cutting lanes unless you can stretch the zone with good three point shooting requiring faster closeouts. JTIII did not successfully improve player's three point shooting his last several years and opposing teams crowded the passing lanes preventing most back door cut passes. Without hand checking the defensive efficiency of JTIIIs teams plummeted and average points scored against GU increased dramatically as first two handed and later 1 handed checking became a foul. This isn't the offensive systems fault though right? The original rule spoke mainly to hand checking of the ball handler but it was revised to include off the ball movement as well.. www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/11/30/college-basketball-officiating-rules-emphasis/94631830/“The first action was to continue the directive to reduce physicality to create freedom of movement that we initiated last year,” said J.D. Collins, the NCAA national coordinator of officiating.
Here are the six areas included in that action:
►Hand checking/body bumping the ballhandler
►Screening
►Freedom of movement for cutters
►Offense-initiated contact on legal defenders
►Physical post play
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