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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 14:35:42 GMT -5
Imo well coached teams aren't nearly as careless with the ball the way this team is.. Do you think Coack K or Izzo would get more out of Dickerson and Mulmore? Yeah I agree that's more a product of personnel not coaching.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 13, 2018 14:40:44 GMT -5
No accountability until it was too late. III didn't know what he was doing on the recruiting front. All he knew was the Princeton. Different method of recruiting. And that wasn't working even during his good years with the early exit with the tournaments. He was a fish out of water at that point. And kids see it. It wasn't even the Princeton offense that held us back. Kids come to schools with structure, a solid foundation and philosophy of how they play. Certain kids are going to play for Tony Bennett and have success. Certain kids were going to play for Bo Ryan and have success. Certain kids are going to play for Izzo, Coach K, Greg Marshall, Calapari and have success. III was unsure of himself. We were all over the place recruiting wise and on the court. Our rosters never looked consistent like the successful programs of college basketball. Having put forwards in the NBA was his saving grace in getting some talent in the frontcourt over the years. But most guards wouldn't want to come, and quite frankly were never a priority. Look at the rosters over the years. Last year was just bad. Peak should have never been our de facto PG. Same with DSR the year before. Bad recruiting forced us to make those moves. Chris Wright never fully developed because he was the primary (i.e., only) ballhandler for the majority of his career on the roster. It was baffling. I agree with you. I just don't remember this type of critique from you when others where asking for a change. In our conversations you came off as one of III's ardent supporters and advised me if III could get to a Final Four once, he could do it again.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 13, 2018 14:44:49 GMT -5
The talent level disparity is truly amazing. How in the world did JTIII ever let things get this bad. We have zero guards who are even slightly above average D1 players at the moment. And most are below average. And Dickerson is truly awful. I liked how we started but having Dickerson in for a long stretch when we had the early lead was a killer decision by Ewing. Still, if we just make a few layups in the second half we may have been able to put a scare in them. Ah well - this season is all about growth - but bottom line is we need better players. A lot of them. No accountability until it was too late. This team should have Copeland, White, LJ, and Tre. That's a 5*, 2-4*, and a 3*. Not to mention a 5* pg thats currently in the SEC. You can't blame 3s recruiting. Player development of that class can be questioned....
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 13, 2018 14:45:12 GMT -5
This is what playing a decent OOC schedule should have been used for, not the BE regular season The only thing that OOC schedule did was hide the deficiencies in coaching and on the court. The only deficiencies it hid was talent, nothing else. You may not agree, but if we had played an OOC schedule more comparable to our talent level then the coaching lineup change made today would have happened prior to the BE Season. We may have actually scored enough points to beat Syracuse, Marquette and even played a more competitive game vs Creighton.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 14:47:53 GMT -5
Yes, grabbed 2 defensive rebounds in the 2nd half during Seton Hall's 7 consecutive missed shots But also committed yet another turnover, and missed another three. He did have a block or deflection helping on Delgado. He only had 1 to and it was in the first half... www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400988572On a side note, Seton Hall shot 27% from 3, got out rebounded, and still beat us by 13... We had 8 assts as a team. They had more steals (11) than we had assts... Yikes
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 13, 2018 14:49:35 GMT -5
It fell apart in the first half when Trey Dickerson came in. We were up 13 and then down 17 (20plus pint swing) We lose our size and length advantage when he comes in and he turns the ball over a lot, can't finish and isn't an outside threat. We had no choice. Mulmore picked up his 2nd foul with plenty of time left in the 1st half. We could have kept Jagan at the point and had Kaleb or Blair at shooting guard. Instead we went to a 3 guard offense which made us really small. I really don't think Jagan is that much worse than Dickerson. In fact Jagan is a much better player on both ends than Dickerson.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2018 14:50:04 GMT -5
III didn't know what he was doing on the recruiting front. All he knew was the Princeton. Different method of recruiting. And that wasn't working even during his good years with the early exit with the tournaments. He was a fish out of water at that point. And kids see it. It wasn't even the Princeton offense that held us back. Kids come to schools with structure, a solid foundation and philosophy of how they play. Certain kids are going to play for Tony Bennett and have success. Certain kids were going to play for Bo Ryan and have success. Certain kids are going to play for Izzo, Coach K, Greg Marshall, Calapari and have success. III was unsure of himself. We were all over the place recruiting wise and on the court. Our rosters never looked consistent like the successful programs of college basketball. Having put forwards in the NBA was his saving grace in getting some talent in the frontcourt over the years. But most guards wouldn't want to come, and quite frankly were never a priority. Look at the rosters over the years. Last year was just bad. Peak should have never been our de facto PG. Same with DSR the year before. Bad recruiting forced us to make those moves. Chris Wright never fully developed because he was the primary (i.e., only) ballhandler for the majority of his career on the roster. It was baffling. I agree with you. I just don't remember this type of critique from you when others where asking for a change. In our conversations you came off as one of III's ardent supporters and advised me if III could get to a Final Four once, he could do it again. Because I thought he would change/grow. He just didn't. Not only that, he regressed. Granted, some of those early exits we played Steph Curry and then Shaka Smart and VCU. Even in his defense, I kept saying we needed more quickness on the court, particularly guards, and that was another problem with III. I think something happened to him and he lost his confidence. When the Princeton way wasn't working and reached its limit, he had no answer. Ultimately, he and the program bottomed out: two losing seasons his last two years.
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 13, 2018 14:53:03 GMT -5
We had no choice. Mulmore picked up his 2nd foul with plenty of time left in the 1st half. We could have kept Jagan at the point and had Kaleb or Blair at shooting guard. Instead we went to a 3 guard offense which made us really small. I really don't think Jagan is that much worse than Dickerson. In fact Jagan is a much better player on both ends than Dickerson. No one is worse than Dickerson. He may be the worst player I’ve seen get significant minutes in all my years of Hoyas hoops-watching. Anyone would have been a better answer at that point in the game.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 13, 2018 14:53:13 GMT -5
Imo well coached teams aren't nearly as careless with the ball the way this team is.. Do you think Coack K or Izzo would get more out of Dickerson and Mulmore? Nope.. Do you think they'd get more out of this Team? Edit - Actually I do think they'd get more out of them because they're better & more experienced coaches..
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 13, 2018 14:53:42 GMT -5
No accountability until it was too late. This team should have Copeland, White, LJ, and Tre. That's a 5*, 2-4*, and a 3*. Not to mention a 5* pg thats currently in the SEC. You can't blame 3s recruiting. Player development of that class can be questioned.... You must be joking.
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zxhoya
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Post by zxhoya on Jan 13, 2018 15:22:40 GMT -5
The only deficiencies it hid was talent, nothing else. You may not agree, but if we had played an OOC schedule more comparable to our talent level then the coaching lineup change made today would have happened prior to the BE Season. We may have actually scored enough points to beat Syracuse, Marquette and even played a more competitive game vs Creighton. Well I agree with this assessment but your 1st statement said it hid coaching deficiencies which I disagree with. It's safe to say that Ewing has a learning curve as well and will be a better coach this time next year compared to now. Had we played all the high school teams that Mac McClung is playing or the very best in college BBall, Mulmore, Dickerson, and so on still will exist as the talent level.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 13, 2018 15:24:27 GMT -5
Production from the SF position is lacking. Johnson and Pickett need to step it up. PG play is a mess. Govan, Derrickson and Blair are the only reliable players.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 13, 2018 15:35:11 GMT -5
Explain to me why (I don't follow the recruiting thread too much) we don't have Jaren Jackson Jr. on our team?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2018 15:35:12 GMT -5
Do you think Coack K or Izzo would get more out of Dickerson and Mulmore? Nope.. Do you think they'd get more out of this Team? Edit - Actually I do think they'd get more out of them because they're better & more experienced coaches.. They wouldn't. Ewing is maximizing the talent on this team. He is playing guys who he probably wouldn't want to play, but has no choice. He has played guys more minutes to get experience. It has worked out for Blair, not yet for Pickett. Mulmore is limited, but Ewing understands he has great heart and is a great athlete to at least push the ball and hound guards on the defensive end. Dickerson has to play to spell Mulmore at times. He has Mulmore's flaws, but also lacks Mulmore's defensive skills and athleticism. He could use Jagan instead but Jagan has to also spell the frontcourt when we go small because Sodom is gone and Jessie and Marcus can't play the entire game. Walker is as raw as Pickett. Ewing has bodies, but very few ballplayers right now. It is pretty much Marcus and Jessie with Blair gradually coming along. That is it. Johnson and Jagan are role players at best right now. Coack K or Izzo would be struggling as hard as Ewing right now.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 13, 2018 15:42:09 GMT -5
Our starters "won" this game. That's right. I will explain below.
So I attended the game, and then I came home and watched a bit of it on TV. I was curious to see how our starters did, and also how the team did with Dickerson on the floor.
Starters: Today, our starters were Govan/Derrickson/Johnson/Blair/Mulmore. Our starters played three segments in this game:
20:00 to about 13:13 (first half): In this segment Georgetown 21, Seton Hall 11. 20:00 to about 12:38 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 15, Seton Hall 14. 5:54 to about 1:00 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 4, Seton Hall 9.
So to add this up, overall, Georgetown's starters were 40-34 against Seton Hall. This is useful because it demonstrates how much better our starters are at the moment than our bench, and how awful some of our bench players are playing at the moment.
Lineups with Dickerson:
13:13 to about 6:42 (first half): In this segment, Georgetown 6, Seton Hall 15. 11:48 to about 5:54 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 10, Seton Hall 8.
So to add this up overall, Georgetown with Dickerson on the floor was 16-23.
I don't want to place the blame solely on Dickerson (though he is bad), because he was paired in lineups without Govan, and with Walker and Pickett, but this simply demonstrates how our bench kills us.
Lineups with Mulmore: I have not done the math from watching and the play by play (as I did above), but I am pretty sure Mulmore/Dickerson were on the floor at all times. So if true, Mulmore's lineups were 45-51.
Takeaways:
- To win games this year, we are going to have to rely heavily on our starters, with some play from Mosely (though he was also horrible today), and a little Walker. Pickett and Dickerson really should get minimal minutes.
- Derrickson only played 28 minutes. Given that he was not in foul trouble, he needs to be on the floor. What are we saving him for? He should be playing 30+ minutes.
- Mulmore is significantly better than Dickerson, but all of our guards are. Mulmore is the best ball handler we have. Dickerson simply is not better than Mosely or Blair given that he turns it over so much and makes wild drives and misses a ton of shots.
- Foul Trouble - Mulmore: I know it's conventional wisdom to sit someone after they get 2 fouls in the first half. I disagree with this, and it killed us today. By taking Mulmore out, you're basically punishing yourself anyway. You have to trust your players to control their fouling. Mulmore ended up only having three anyway, yet his time on the bench sunk us.
- Foul Trouble - Govan: I was actually happy that Ewing put Govan back in the second half with 4 fouls. It did lead Govan to play basically no defense, but I think you need to go with your best players - again, we were behind and what are you saving him for? If he sits on the bench longer, he's basically not playing anyway, so let him play. - Substitution Patterns: I generally am trying to give Ewing the benefit of the doubt on everything since he's new, and really only 6-7 games into real competition. That said, we were doing well in the first half with the starters, then he did his normal substitution with Dickerson (and Pickett a few minutes later), and that lineup completely tanked us. If the goal is to win games (and I think it should be). Also, "development" isn't a reason to play Dickerson given that he's a graduate student. So why is he playing?
As a final note, of course our talent is extremely limited, and we need more talent. That's a given. But, the goal this year should be to win some games (how big would a win against Seton Hall today have been, even if we have no chance at the post season?). If I were Ewing, I would shorten the rotation, sit Dickerson more, and ride my better players harder.
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dchoya72
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Post by dchoya72 on Jan 13, 2018 15:42:46 GMT -5
Its amazing that these guys made it to this level. They had to demonstrate to someone that they have talent and potential to excel at this level, but I'm apalled at the quality of individual play and lack of athleticism. No one can finish at the rim..they are all below the rim players. What I have to say to the teams credit is that the effort is there. The team is going after the 50-50 balls, not standing around. The system is much better but the results are not. Each player has to look in the mirror and commit to improvement.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 15:45:04 GMT -5
Our starters "won" this game. That's right. I will explain below. So I attended the game, and then I came home and watched a bit of it on TV. I was curious to see how our starters did, and also how the team did with Dickerson on the floor. Starters: Today, our starters were Govan/Derrickson/Johnson/Blair/Mulmore. Our starters played three segments in this game: 20:00 to about 13:13 (first half): In this segment Georgetown 21, Seton Hall 11. 20:00 to about 12:38 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 15, Seton Hall 14. 5:54 to about 1:00 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 4, Seton Hall 9. So to add this up, overall, Georgetown's starters were 40-34 against Seton Hall. This is useful because it demonstrates how much better our starters are at the moment than our bench, and how awful some of our bench players are playing at the moment. Lineups with Dickerson: 13:13 to about 6:42 (first half): In this segment, Georgetown 6, Seton Hall 15. 11:48 to about 5:54 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 10, Seton Hall 8. So to add this up overall, Georgetown with Dickerson on the floor was 16-23. Lineups with Pickett: 12:10 to 7:42 (first half): In this segment, Georgetown 5, Seton Hall 9. 11:48 to 6:18 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 6, Seton Hall 2. I don't want to place the blame solely on Dickerson (though he is bad), because he was paired in lineups without Govan, and with Walker and Pickett, but this simply demonstrates how our bench kills us. Lineups with Mulmore: I have not done the math from watching and the play by play (as I did above), but I am pretty sure Mulmore/Dickerson were on the floor at all times. So if true, Mulmore's lineups were 45-51. Takeaways: - To win games this year, we are going to have to rely heavily on our starters, with some play from Mosely (though he was also horrible today), and a little Walker. Pickett and Dickerson really should get minimal minutes. - Derrickson only played 28 minutes. Given that he was not in foul trouble, he needs to be on the floor. What are we saving him for? He should be playing 30+ minutes. - Mulmore is significantly better than Dickerson, but all of our guards are. Mulmore is the best ball handler we have. Dickerson simply is not better than Mosely or Blair given that he turns it over so much and makes while drives and misses a ton of shots. - Foul Trouble - Mulmore: I know it's conventional wisdom to sit someone after they get 2 fouls in the first half. I disagree with this, and it killed us today. By taking Mulmore out, you're basically punishing yourself anyway. You have to trust your players to control their fouling. Mulmore ended up only having three anyway, yet his time on the bench sunk us. - Foul Trouble - Govan: I was actually happy that Ewing put Govan back in the second half with 4 fouls. It did lead Govan to play basically no defense, but I think you need to go with your best players - again, we were behind and what are you saving him for? If he sits on the bench longer, he's basically not playing anyway, so let him play. - Substitution Patterns: I generally am trying to give Ewing the benefit of the doubt on everything since he's new, and really only 6-7 games into real competition. That said, we were doing well in the first half with the starters, then he did his normal substitution with Dickerson (and Pickett a few minutes later), and that lineup completely tanked us. If the goal is to win games (and I think it should be). Also, "development" isn't a reason to play Dickerson given that he's a graduate student. So why is he playing? As a final note, of course our talent is extremely limited, and we need more talent. That's a given. But, the goal this year should be to win some games (how big would a win against Seton Hall today have been, even if we have no chance at the post season?). If I were Ewing, I would shorten the rotation, sit Dickerson more, and ride my better players harder. This post is absurd.. lol
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 13, 2018 15:46:19 GMT -5
But also committed yet another turnover, and missed another three. He did have a block or deflection helping on Delgado. He only had 1 to and it was in the first half... www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400988572On a side note, Seton Hall shot 27% from 3, got out rebounded, and still beat us by 13... We had 8 assts as a team. They had more steals (11) than we had assts... Yikes Yes he only had one today. I was referring to last game when he had as many turnovers as points (2 each); today he coupled the turnover with zero points. Hopefully he can get his offensive confidence back.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2018 15:46:33 GMT -5
We shorten the rotation, the games won't be as "close".
Guys need breathers so we can score with what little scorers we have on the team and defend.
We have an entire season to play.You gotta think long term for this season and beyond.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 13, 2018 15:46:35 GMT -5
Nope.. Do you think they'd get more out of this Team? Edit - Actually I do think they'd get more out of them because they're better & more experienced coaches.. They wouldn't. Ewing is maximizing the talent on this team. He is playing guys who he probably wouldn't want to play, but has no choice. He has played guys more minutes to get experience. It has worked out for Blair, not yet for Pickett. Mulmore is limited, but Ewing understands he has great heart and is a great athlete to at least push the ball and hound guards on the defensive end. Dickerson has to play to spell Mulmore at times. He has Mulmore's flaws, but also lacks Mulmore's defensive skills and athleticism. He could use Jagan instead but Jagan has to also spell the frontcourt when we go small because Sodom is gone and Jessie and Marcus can't play the entire game. Walker is as raw as Pickett. Ewing has bodies, but very few ballplayers right now. It is pretty much Marcus and Jessie with Blair gradually coming along. That is it. Johnson and Jagan are role players at best right now. Coack K or Izzo would be struggling as hard as Ewing right now. I am not going to break down all the reason because they have been broken down in the same threads but K and Izzo would have at the very least 2 less losses with this team. To think that Pat has coached as well as can be done with this team means you have some very tinted Hoyas glasses. He's shown some signs of improvement while still doing some really head shaking things. He still has a long way to go and hopefully he gets there.
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