RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Jun 14, 2005 23:57:10 GMT -5
Like Jersey said I dont see any reason to not push as hard as we can for Macklin, but like the way said I think its an overstatement to say that we NEED him. We hit the jackpot with Jeff Green (who, for those scoring at home, wasn't even top 150 never mind top 10). We also have arguably one of the hottest coaches in America, a coach whos on his way to being considered one of the top collegiate coaches in the country. The players will come in time for JTIII, just like they did for JTII.
Macklins got talent, but whos to say someone else with a lot of talents doesnt wanna come aboard in '07? Like I said, if you can get a guy like Macklin you have to go all out in trying, but if we dont land him, I'll still have really high hopes for our future... We've already got one of the top PGs and one of the top Forwards in the class, plus a 21 year old freakish athlete coming that year.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 15, 2005 0:45:01 GMT -5
Yes we need Macklin. Without him we will only be decent, in and out of the top 25, and prone to those aggravating 6 minute bouts of scorelessness. We need a top 25 recruit. If memory serves thats what Ewing, Mourning, Othella, Iverson and Sweetney were. We need Macklin otherwise we are all getting ahead of ourselves about how good we are going to be like we did last season with the Dance. For you youngin's out there, you have no idea what you're missing when your team is a Top 10 team. On those cold wintery days walking to class you can look forward to later evening to watch the big game drinking a can of Milwaukees Best while eating a bowl of 49cent mac n cheese from Safeway. Macklin is what stands between us and the glory dayz!!!!!!! I want Macklin to commit to GU as much as any fan here but there is no way you can say getting him would guarantee anything. You can't even guarantee that he would live up to his ranking or even if he could provide scoring in the post. You're simply being seduced by rankings without knowing very little about the players involved. Rivers could end up being the best recruit of the bunch. You just don't know. And its downright silly to even suggest that Macklin is the key to getting in the dance because he's not. This team is talented enough to do that this coming season andif the frosh live up to expectations then the talent will be there in the following years to go dancing as well. With or without Macklin. And since you did bring up Othella's name he could never live up to that #2 ranking in his class now could he? He's one of my all time faves because of his class and work ethic. But even before AI ame aboard and O got less touches, you could see the flaws in Othella's game. What if Macklin is also too flawed to be the cornerstone of the team?
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 15, 2005 3:56:32 GMT -5
Ofcourse getting Macklin doesn't guarantee us anything - just like none of our recruits absolutely guarantee us anything - the only known is how the returning players respond to in-game situations. But, if Macklin is the best player for us out there, why shouldn't we go after him? I am not saying we go after him because he is what the experts say we should go for or because of some rankings system, but because he would fit in with Georgetown basketball. I don't think that we should assume that because something might be in the mainstream that it somehow fits with the GU way. What is this GU way anyways??? As far as i see it being defined in posts on these boards lately it entails doing something that is harder or that seems counter-intuitive given the information that we have, because it was either not done in the past or because we can do without it because our coaching staff can overcome it - i am sorry I just don't buy either of those arguments about the way we should be going about things. We should, ofcourse, do what is in our own best interests - but we shouldn't shirk away from doing what other universities have done or going after players that big name schools are going after just because that is not how it was done in the past or because our coaching staff can do without those advantages. It is rediculous to view our coaching staff as a panacea - JTIII is a great coach but if we expect him to not go after the best talent out there because it is somehow not "the GU way" that is dumb. I personally think that Macklin might be the best available player out there for the team - and that is who we need to recruit the best available player, not a role player, we are not putting together an NBA team here - but it is just wrong to say that there we can do without him or that we shouldn't go after Macklin - if we keep on having to debate these points between alumni and students who are highly committed to this program it won't be Macklin who is holding us back it will be supporters of this program that condition their support of the program upon us doing what is "manly", "the GU way", etc. that force us to go about building a national championship program with one arm behind our back. The fact is that a team CAN win a national championship without large amounts or organized alumni giving, highly organized student support, good on-campus facilities including weight rooms, training table facilties, modern coaches offices academic support services, and an on-campus arena, across the board great recruits, and a top-notch coaching staff - yes it can be done but it becomes increasingly unlikely the more you keep back from that program - there is a reason that the traditionally dominant schools in college basketball: Kansas, UNC, Duke, Texas, OkState, Kentucky, etc. all have these things in common - I would say this is more than a correlation. Did Georgetown once compete on the same level as these programs? Yes. Ofcourse we did.
What has changed since now and then? We did not leverege our success to reinvest in the program and as a result the quality of recruits available to us went down, the quality of the coaching staff went down, and the quality of the student support went down - this is not arguable in my opinion - we have all experienced it as Hoyas fans. So what is the GU way then? If it is foregoing the things that will make us competitive and holding back resources from a program that desperately needs them to compete I will have no part in it. We should not even be arguing about whether we should be recruiting the best player available to us - Macklin - or not. I have heard no other names here that we should be going after - but just talk that this is not the way to build the program IMO we need to do whatever is best for the program regardless of whether it is the GU way or not - why do we expect a Princeton Grad and a ND Assistant AD to suddenly intuit what the GU way is and then forego these opportunities?
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 15, 2005 8:23:07 GMT -5
Ofcourse getting Macklin doesn't guarantee us anything - just like none of our recruits absolutely guarantee us anything - the only known is how the returning players respond to in-game situations. But, if Macklin is the best player for us out there, why shouldn't we go after him? I am not saying we go after him because he is what the experts say we should go for or because of some rankings system, but because he would fit in with Georgetown basketball. I don't think that we should assume that because something might be in the mainstream that it somehow fits with the GU way. What is this GU way anyways??? As far as i see it being defined in posts on these boards lately it entails doing something that is harder or that seems counter-intuitive given the information that we have, because it was either not done in the past or because we can do without it because our coaching staff can overcome it - i am sorry I just don't buy either of those arguments about the way we should be going about things. We should, ofcourse, do what is in our own best interests - but we shouldn't shirk away from doing what other universities have done or going after players that big name schools are going after just because that is not how it was done in the past or because our coaching staff can do without those advantages. It is rediculous to view our coaching staff as a panacea - JTIII is a great coach but if we expect him to not go after the best talent out there because it is somehow not "the GU way" that is dumb. I personally think that Macklin might be the best available player out there for the team - and that is who we need to recruit the best available player, not a role player, we are not putting together an NBA team here - but it is just wrong to say that there we can do without him or that we shouldn't go after Macklin - if we keep on having to debate these points between alumni and students who are highly committed to this program it won't be Macklin who is holding us back it will be supporters of this program that condition their support of the program upon us doing what is "manly", "the GU way", etc. that force us to go about building a national championship program with one arm behind our back. The fact is that a team CAN win a national championship without large amounts or organized alumni giving, highly organized student support, good on-campus facilities including weight rooms, training table facilties, modern coaches offices academic support services, and an on-campus arena, across the board great recruits, and a top-notch coaching staff - yes it can be done but it becomes increasingly unlikely the more you keep back from that program - there is a reason that the traditionally dominant schools in college basketball: Kansas, UNC, Duke, Texas, OkState, Kentucky, etc. all have these things in common - I would say this is more than a correlation. Did Georgetown once compete on the same level as these programs? Yes. Ofcourse we did. What has changed since now and then? We did not leverege our success to reinvest in the program and as a result the quality of recruits available to us went down, the quality of the coaching staff went down, and the quality of the student support went down - this is not arguable in my opinion - we have all experienced it as Hoyas fans. So what is the GU way then? If it is foregoing the things that will make us competitive and holding back resources from a program that desperately needs them to compete I will have no part in it. We should not even be arguing about whether we should be recruiting the best player available to us - Macklin - or not. I have heard no other names here that we should be going after - but just talk that this is not the way to build the program IMO we need to do whatever is best for the program regardless of whether it is the GU way or not - why do we expect a Princeton Grad and a ND Assistant AD to suddenly intuit what the GU way is and then forego these opportunities? Wow, that was a great nap. I'm not sleepy anymore.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 15, 2005 11:24:03 GMT -5
St. Petersburg, I'll admit I got nowhere near through your entire post. But let me try to summarize "the opposition" minus the_way, since I have never understood him at all.
1) We should go after Macklin 2) The issue is with the word "need." There is no one recruit we absolutely "need." 3) Macklin, though I'm sure a fine player, is not considered a can't miss talent like Iverson. There's a very good chance he won't be as good as Mike was or Jeff is in college.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jun 15, 2005 12:50:47 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you, the_way. Basketball is a player-dominated sport. The most important job of a coach is to recruit good players. So the only way JT III or any coach can make or break us is by recruiting. The amount of talent you put on the floor is much more important than strategy, execution, etc. That is not to say that those things aren't important; they are important b/c many teams are close in terms of talent. But notice how the Big Boys (UConn, UNC, etc) win w/ or w/o great strategy and execution. Thus, getting a potential true impact player like Macklin is of paramount importance to the program.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jun 15, 2005 12:56:32 GMT -5
Guys, I think recruiting needs to be looked at in some general terms: 1. Vernon Macklin is a talented player and at least at this time is listing GU as his top school 2. He's a 6'9/6'10 athlete who can run floor like a quick guard, finishes strong around basket, and has skill set to develop. 3. Like any recruit, it's the upside you are looking at. While it' great to have talent entering school, it's also important to have the ability to get better and with GU Staff, I think you'd agree players will get better. 4. He's from one of our "Local" areas in recruiting. DC, MD, and VA need to be important with Hoya recruiting. 5. Hoyas have success making bigs Centers and PF into MILLIONAIRES and while many point to Patrick, Alonzo, and Deke, I think GU should sell Don Reid, Jahidi, Othella, and JYD as much and of course Big Mike too. Hell, Ben Gillery even got some run in league as well. Now I think Gillery is the only player who didn't last long enough to make millions--the others are all richer than their wildest dreams. That's a selling point if you ask me. 6. Macklin is a versatile player and GU is about recruiting versatile athletes and if there is a GU "way" to play the phrase I'm fond of that III uses a lot is "We want players--not positions. Just play and don't think" and that is what I love hearing. Good players do everything they can--not just one aspect. Just look at it this way, it's a helluva lot more fun being in on kids like this then wishing we could be--and it's only getting started--this type of recruitment will become the norm as long as the program continues to develop, which I see no reason why it won't. Things are on the upswing and only getting better!!
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by kghoya on Jun 15, 2005 13:13:08 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2005 14:07:35 GMT -5
You know Hoyaland isn't what it used to be when there are people who actually DO NOT WANT a blue chip recruit. Let's slow down and take a step back, people. With our roster filled out as is, adding a top flight player at ANY position is a great bonus.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 15, 2005 14:11:24 GMT -5
Is there anyone here that doesn't want Macklin (except the_way, of course, who has proven to be somewhat insane in er: to Vernon's nickname)?
He's priority #1. I think people just took issue with the word "need" as if the world will end if he goes to the NBA or another school.
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Jun 15, 2005 14:36:20 GMT -5
Basically, I am thinking Macklin or bust for '06. If we get him, awesome, and we have 1-3 scholarships left for '07.
We don't, sucks, and we have 2-4 for a very talented '07 class. The only recruit we are heavy on right now besides Macklin is Phil Jones, and I think we might as well wait till '07 for a guy like McClain.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 15, 2005 14:56:42 GMT -5
Is there anyone here that doesn't want Macklin (except the_way, of course, who has proven to be somewhat insane in er: to Vernon's nickname)? He's priority #1. I think people just took issue with the word "need" as if the world will end if he goes to the NBA or another school. Its funny, I know what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. Its incredulous how people think they can speak for you. For the 28th BILLIONTH time: I am all for Macklin coming to GU, but if he does not come ( something that can occur with recruits in college basketball) our program will not DIE. Capeesh?
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Post by stafford72 on Jun 15, 2005 15:15:25 GMT -5
I have to take exception to the perception of Othella Harrington as being a bust in college as opposed to his high school ranking. He might have been projected as a top 5 player in one ranking, but was not a concensus top 10 Parade All American, I don't believe. But the important thing is that he should never be compared as a "failure" with the likes of Owinje, Guibunda, and even Perry. Othella was one hell of a college player, one of the best power forwards in Hoya history. I defer to Sweetney on this. He was not and never should have been considered a "center." He is not that tall and does not have great hops, but he played hard, rebounded well, defended, and had a very good offensive game, with an extremely high field goal percentage. His mid-range game was excellent. He had more impact as a player for Gtown than Dikembe, by a wide margin. Just because he has only had a "fair" career in the pros should not demean his accomplishents for the Hoyas. He was somewhat overhyped based on 21 rebounds in the Capital Classic, but he was by no means "disappointing" as a Hoya.
On another note, what other front court player has excelled playing opposite Iverson. It is a very short list.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 15, 2005 15:27:42 GMT -5
Is there anyone here that doesn't want Macklin (except the_way, of course, who has proven to be somewhat insane in er: to Vernon's nickname)? He's priority #1. I think people just took issue with the word "need" as if the world will end if he goes to the NBA or another school. Its funny, I know what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. Its incredulous how people think they can speak for you. For the 28th BILLIONTH time: I am all for Macklin coming to GU, but if he does not come ( something that can occur with recruits in college basketball) our program will not DIE. Capeesh? I believe it is "Capice." And I thought you didn't take any of this seriously? (BTW, there was a long thread earlier in the year where you took major offense to GU recruiting a player with the same nickname as KG). Meant all tongue in cheek.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jun 15, 2005 15:35:38 GMT -5
I have to take exception to the perception of Othella Harrington as being a bust in college as opposed to his high school ranking. He might have been projected as a top 5 player in one ranking, but was not a concensus top 10 Parade All American, I don't believe. But the important thing is that he should never be compared as a "failure" with the likes of Owinje, Guibunda, and even Perry. Othella was one hell of a college player, one of the best power forwards in Hoya history. I defer to Sweetney on this. He was not and never should have been considered a "center." He is not that tall and does not have great hops, but he played hard, rebounded well, defended, and had a very good offensive game, with an extremely high field goal percentage. His mid-range game was excellent. He had more impact as a player for Gtown than Dikembe, by a wide margin. Just because he has only had a "fair" career in the pros should not demean his accomplishents for the Hoyas. He was somewhat overhyped based on 21 rebounds in the Capital Classic, but he was by no means "disappointing" as a Hoya. On another note, what other front court player has excelled playing opposite Iverson. It is a very short list. Othella was ranked the #1 player coming out of high school. Jason Kidd was 2nd, and Corliss Williamson 3rd. Everybody wanted him. What happened with Othella is that in Mississippi, the competition is really weak. So Othella averaged like 28 points and 24 rebounds a game. I think Othella is like the 2nd highest rebounder in high school history next to Moses Malone. Here is the info on Rankings, look for 1992: www.prepstars.com/archives/pasttop10.jspHere is info on his high school team: www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050227/SPORTS06/502270436Othella had heart and he was smart, but he could not jump and he was slow-footed. You could take him off the dribble pretty easy, like Joe Smith did when they played Maryland. He had a hard time in the transition, he mightly struggled when Iverson first arrived. Othella played like a 7'2" center, but he was 6'9". I liked O. I wouldn't say he was a failure. But based on the hype he had coming in, he didn't live up to expectations.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 15, 2005 15:45:41 GMT -5
Jason Kidd and Randy Livingston were Co-Parade POY O's senior year.
O was first-team.
Other members than those three:
Corliss, Rodrick Rhodes, Rasheed, Carlos Strong, Martice Moore, Donta Bright, Jerry Stackhouse.
While it is difficult to live up to #1-5 ranking (no upside, all downside), Othella's college and pro careers falls in about the middle of the above crew, behind Kidd, Sheed, Stack, probably Corliss, but ahead of the others.
Who is Martice Moore?
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 15, 2005 15:57:45 GMT -5
Jason Kidd and Randy Livingston were Co-Parade POY O's senior year. O was first-team. Other members than those three: Corliss, Rodrick Rhodes, Rasheed, Carlos Strong, Martice Moore, Donta Bright, Jerry Stackhouse. While it is difficult to live up to #1-5 ranking (no upside, all downside), Othella's college and pro careers falls in about the middle of the above crew, behind Kidd, Sheed, Stack, probably Corliss, but ahead of the others. Who is Martice Moore? Martice Moore was a 6'8" guard who started his career at GA Tech. Here is some info below: slamball.warnerbros.com/season2/players/bandits/4.htmlRandy Livingston played in Jerry Stackhouse's class, a year after O's and Kidd's class. O was College Basketball's most wanted. UCONN, Kentucky, LSU,etc. Everybody wanted him. In Mississippi, the competition there is really weak. Which explains the average 24 rebounds a game, because O couldn't jump to save his life. O was a hard worker, an overachiever. With very little athletic ability, he made up for it with heart and intelligence.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jun 15, 2005 16:00:28 GMT -5
I think Moore ended up transferring to Colorado where he played with Chauncey Billups?
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Air Jordan
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Jun 16, 2005 8:39:11 GMT -5
Im not saying he is a must have either. The only thing that I'am saying is that we need to go big, and he is the most talented out there. And he has us listed high in his school rankings. I just believe he will give us a huge boost on and off the court. ie, (future recruits) The only thing I have to get used to again is GTown being associated with high ranking players coming out of high school. Dont remember the last time I have seen so many guys list GTown as there possible possible. And I have followed this program close to 25 years now. Just have to get used to it, we have a hot coach, and hopefully an even hotter team, you know what I mean
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 16, 2005 15:47:53 GMT -5
Look the deal is that it is rediculous to not take talent when talent is out there and listening to us. It may turn out that this HS player does not pan out, but if we have a good player out there that can really complete a great recruiting class, why shouldn't we take him? I get a little tired of this capricious attitude from some where our needs are computed in terms of what worked 21 years ago. It is great to look back on the good old days but we shouldn't be reliving them. I do agree there is a difference between whether we need a given player and whether we should be recruiting him. My position is that we may not NEED him (i.e. GU basketball will not cease to exist without this recruit), however we SHOULD be recruiting him. I feel differently on issues such as facilities, marketing to donors, and recommiting ourselved to providing better academic and financial support for our basketball players and GU athletes in general - we NEED to do that and we SHOULD do that because of the many reasons that I have stated in other posts and do not need to go into right now. We should always give our coaches and student atheletes everything that they need to make them competitive on and off the court - we should not be limiting their abilities to do that by forcing them to work within the constraints of an older paradigm - therefore we need to be doing all that we can to support them. That is my position on where we are with GU athletics and the men's basketball program more specifically.
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