the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 12, 2005 18:55:40 GMT -5
JT3 himself has said GU needs better on-campus facilities. We do need them to recruit HIM, or others as good should he leave. You never addressed this point. You never addressed the financial mess that is our MCI lease. I said 3 could coach anywhere. But can we keep 3 if we force him to recruit with one hand behind his back? This point you have not addressed. Finally, let me know when "The Way Rally" takes place so I can see all you are doing for Hoya Hoops. I have put both my money and my time where my mouth is, and put forth a variety of new ideas in addition to continuing pressure to keep the arena on the admin's to do list (no small task). Tell me, Mr. Way, great one, what constructive contributions have you made to, umm, anything? I'm not in the business of creating rallys so I can make a name for myself, get people fired, or get my name in the paper. That is not my M.O., maybe it is for you, but not for me. I'm not thinking about me and let alone you, I'm thinking about the good for GU and GU only. Nobody is saying that we should NOT get a new-arena or new facilities. You are so wrapped up in your little "i'm going to show the world" agenda, that you have become blind. What I'm saying is STOP complaining about what we don't have or what we aren't and DO SOMETHING about it, instead of just spitting out the same mundane, empty rhetoric. If you feel there is a need for change do something. You got it backwards. Rome was not built in a day. These things take time. If we don't win, its a moot point. If we don't win, who is going to give funding for a new arena in the 8-9 figure range to a moribund program that hasn't won . Do you think JTIII is thinking like, "gee, we don't have new facilities or a new arena, so I'm just going to sit on my butt and whine and complain like everybody else about what I don't have and do nothing". NO, he had a winning season that nobody expected having a chance of us making the tournament this year. We are landing great recruits that other major colleges want. You have to start somewhere. Thats what JTIII is doing, and he is doing a damn good job of it already. When you build a winning program, people will donate, fans will come to see the games at MCI, money will be generated. Thats how JT2 built the program in the first place.
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YB
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Post by YB on Jun 12, 2005 19:28:23 GMT -5
As I said, 3 is not using this as a crutch like Esh did. To his credit. But right now he is recruiting with one arm tied behind his back. How long will it be before he gets fed up with how little the University or its alums care to invest in him or the program before he leaves? He only stayed at Princeton, his alma mater, 4 years before GU came calling.
We cannot wait on this. I'm not saying, wait to win until we have the arena; I'm saying, if we win now, take advantage of that to raise the cash and build the thing now. Don't think, "Oh, we have 3 and we're winning so we obviously need no investment or new arena". It's a false mentality.
Anyone who was involved in the Rally knows it wasn't about me- I pushed the student co-organizers to the front as much as possible too. This is about showing the GU admin that there are people out there who will work with them and who want this.
It's not enough to just donate (which I do) and it's not enough to just bark on a talk board (like you). You have to match your words with actions, to get and stay involved.
I have. Who's with me?
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 12, 2005 21:26:56 GMT -5
I'd like to address the first two issues before moving onto the McD debate. That, or someone's rich uncle could die and we'd suddenly have $30 million to take care of ALL that crap. Rich uncles list: Bill Clinton Henry Hyde (not all $30 but he's got a few) Allen Iverson Patrick Ewing JT II Donald Trump Alumni donations unfortunately a quick check of my credit union account revealed a pre-pay day balance of $9.78 which means I can visit my money in the bank but can't take it out - so i guess I won't be getting my name on the stadium any time soon - although I am giving.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 12, 2005 21:58:22 GMT -5
As I said, 3 is not using this as a crutch like Esh did. To his credit. But right now he is recruiting with one arm tied behind his back. How long will it be before he gets fed up with how little the University or its alums care to invest in him or the program before he leaves? He only stayed at Princeton, his alma mater, 4 years before GU came calling. We cannot wait on this. I'm not saying, wait to win until we have the arena; I'm saying, if we win now, take advantage of that to raise the cash and build the thing now. Don't think, "Oh, we have 3 and we're winning so we obviously need no investment or new arena". It's a false mentality. Anyone who was involved in the Rally knows it wasn't about me- I pushed the student co-organizers to the front as much as possible too. This is about showing the GU admin that there are people out there who will work with them and who want this. It's not enough to just donate (which I do) and it's not enough to just bark on a talk board (like you). You have to match your words with actions, to get and stay involved. I have. Who's with me? III is not recruiting with one arm tied behind his back. III is a man. That means he doesn't cry like a little boy about how life is so tough and we are never going to make it or we can't compete. As a man, he makes the most of a situation, just like his dad did, which was a Hall of Fame career. JTIII wouldn't have come here, if he thought that. He came here because he saw a wonderful oppurtunity, unlike what you and your fellow comrades see as doom and gloom. People like you had the same mentality back then when JT2 first started. He said a National Championship banner will hang in the gym. They all thought he was crazy. He was only asked to go to the NIT a couple of times. Those were the expectations. That was the "doom and gloom" mentality. That is a myopic way of thinking. Change can only occur with hope and is deadened with the presence of doubts.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Jun 12, 2005 22:25:07 GMT -5
Whatever, man. All I can say is that some people look at what is and say, "why?", and some look at what could be and say, "Why not?".
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jun 12, 2005 22:27:53 GMT -5
As I said, 3 is not using this as a crutch like Esh did. To his credit. But right now he is recruiting with one arm tied behind his back. How long will it be before he gets fed up with how little the University or its alums care to invest in him or the program before he leaves? He only stayed at Princeton, his alma mater, 4 years before GU came calling. We cannot wait on this. I'm not saying, wait to win until we have the arena; I'm saying, if we win now, take advantage of that to raise the cash and build the thing now. Don't think, "Oh, we have 3 and we're winning so we obviously need no investment or new arena". It's a false mentality. Anyone who was involved in the Rally knows it wasn't about me- I pushed the student co-organizers to the front as much as possible too. This is about showing the GU admin that there are people out there who will work with them and who want this. It's not enough to just donate (which I do) and it's not enough to just bark on a talk board (like you). You have to match your words with actions, to get and stay involved. I have. Who's with me? III is not recruiting with one arm tied behind his back. III is a man. That means he doesn't cry like a little boy about how life is so tough and we are never going to make it or we can't compete. As a man, he makes the most of a situation, just like his dad did, which was a Hall of Fame career. JTIII wouldn't have come here, if he thought that. He came here because he saw a wonderful oppurtunity, unlike what you and your fellow comrades see as doom and gloom. People like you had the same mentality back then when JT2 first started. He said a National Championship banner will hang in the gym. They all thought he was crazy. He was only asked to go to the NIT a couple of times. Those were the expectations. That was the "doom and gloom" mentality. That is a myopic way of thinking. Change can only occur with hope and is deadened with the presence of doubts. Way, enough of the nonsense. You make good points related to basketball, but you are way off base when you attack YB. Some people, myself included, on this board know YB and know some of the things he has done for the program, and you do nobody any service by attacking him personally. That said, you have your head in the sand if you think the doom and gloom mentality was erroneous before March 2004 and during the Esherick tenure. That program was on the fast track to a self-imposed death penalty. Heck... We were halfway there. That said, you are right. We can win a national championship again with or without an on-campus arena. JT3 would not be here if he didn't think we could.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jun 12, 2005 22:37:11 GMT -5
Nobody is attacking anybody here. The proof is in the pudding. You can't dispel the truth. And people know this. We are all adults here. You know its funny, when people call me out for things I say, disagree with what I say, call me crazy, call me names, its okay when its done. Its all funny to people. I don't think they are attacking me. I may not agree with what they say, but I don't feel personally attacked. That is what the real world consists of, debating, dialogue, differences of opinion, viewpoints, creeds, etc. Isn't that what Georgetown prides itself on: diversity. If you can't handle somebody disagreeing with what you are saying, or pointing out the errors in your thinking, then you can't survive in this world. You need to live in a bubble on a deserted island.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jun 12, 2005 22:41:49 GMT -5
Btw, I am spending the weekend with friends who are NCAA D-I atheletes at Texas Christian University. I asked them what they were thinking when they were recruited to run track at TCU - granted this is not basketball and I am assuming that NCAA D-1 atheletes all think similarly regardless of sport - but I do think that atheletes do consider similar things when deciding which university they will go to. The three runners that I talked to said that what they looked at was "how well they would be taken care of at a University" - this included the coaching staff, the facilties, and academic support services provided for atheletes. They considered the facilties if not on a par with coaching a close second to them, given the realization that there was always a chance that a coach could leave a program, however the facilties are always there. I think this is pretty strong evidence that facilities DO matter. One of my friends also watched the NIT Game in McD and said that if he were an athelete considering Georgetown he would be thinking about why Georgetown had not rewarded a program that had brough it so much pride and prestige can play in such a gym. I would also like to add to this that the fact that we have a good recruiting class this year does not mean that our facilties are not important to recruits it only proves that it is not important to these specific recruits - and we also don't have all of the information on why these specific recruits came to Georgetown ... or any information to assume that the decisions of these players is indicative of college recruits overall. I grew up down the street from the newly built TCU track, which is next door to the new TCU baseball stadium. They have done a great job with facilities, and a lot of credit can be given to AD Eric Hyman, who did a FANTASTIC job as AD before leaving for South Carolina earlier this year. Like best in the nation fantastic. You have to understand, however, that TCU enjoys excellent financial support from its alumni and the Fort Worth community. This is because most TCU graduates end up staying in Fort Worth or within the state of Texas. I don't claim to be an expert on fundraising, but I figure it is much easier to fundraise for athletics when bank presidents, oil barons, and captains of industry all live in your backyard and happen to be alums and like going to TCU football games. It seems to me these people, who support TCU athletics with donations AND attendance, would be more likely to plunk down money for new stadiums than wealthy Georgetown alums who live in California, are interested in doing positive things for the communities they live in, and are almost never able to attend a Georgetown basketball game. (By the way, although TCU's athletic facilities are pretty nice overall, the Frogs' basketball arena, Daniel-Meyer Coliseum, is a crumbling old dome with terrible views of the court. I'd much rather see a game at McDonough. Other than that however, TCU facilities kick GU's tail.) Anyway, hope you had fun in Fort Worth, aka the nicest town nobody on the East Coast has ever heard of. Did you make it downtown or just stick around the smelly TCU bars?
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YB
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Post by YB on Jun 12, 2005 23:04:32 GMT -5
My point is not that 3 can win without an arena; I know he can and have said as much all along. But he has said it's a lot tougher without investment, resources, or the arena. So what do we have? A situation where he is vulnerable to being lured away, as would any decent coach.
Look folks, we have to get our heads out of the sand here. MCI in perpetuity ain't gonna cut it. You have to strike while the iron is hot to build something like the arena. Long-term, it's the only answer- we won't have 3 forever, like we didn't have his dad forever, and we won't win every year. Can't rely on that or on 15k+/game crowds at MCI; we didn't even get that duri ng the Iverson years or Ewing years. So, we need to look out for our future. And do so now- and again, let me ask WHY NOT.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jun 12, 2005 23:11:17 GMT -5
I don't see a good reason why we shouldn't and have never said that such a reason exists.
One caveat I do have is that we have to raise all of the money and have it up front rather than ask for corporate donations which may requires us to fork over portions of ticket sales and so forth. That is MCI-lite, and I don't want that to happen. We need to be able to rake in 100% of ticket/concession sales if we build this thing.
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YB
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Post by YB on Jun 12, 2005 23:14:23 GMT -5
Completely agree- but there are a ton of ways to skin a cat. We can design the arena and fundrtaising however is possible or desired.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jun 12, 2005 23:23:09 GMT -5
This whole discussion reminds me a lot of Moneyball.
For those that haven't read the book, the approach taken by the Oakland A's organization (mainly by Billy Beane and Paul DePodesta, now the Dodgers' GM) is to create some sort of objective criteria for answering the question: what makes a good baseball player? In the past, this question was answered subjectively by former players who supposedly had a feel for such things. So if a scout said "Jimmy has a good swing," that used to be good enough for A's management. Beane and DePodesta essentially disregard these subjective answers because everyone has a different opinion, and there is no way to discern who is right. Scout B might hate Jimmy's swing. Which scout is right? What if both the scouts are bad judges of talent? Instead, they focus on objective criteria such as how many walks a player draws, his OPS in college ball, etc., etc.
Here, we're trying to answer a different question: what does it take to attract a recruit?" Is it the coach, the jerseys, the locker rooms? These are all subjective answers that we could argue about for years (and have). The problem with my analogy is that there's not really a good way to answer this question the way you can answer the above baseball questions with statistics. But what's interesting to me is that so many people think they have the Right Answer, and, convinced of their wisdom, want to take what is essentially a financial gamble for a University with limited funds and lots of needs and build an on-campus arena now. How can we expect a subjective opinion (An arena significantly improves recruiting) to somehow be an objective answer to attracting coaches + recruits/build a winning basketball program? Isn't this sort of the same thing as saying "Mark DeRosa has a beautiful swing; we should draft him in the first round." I think that's the reason why a lot of people are skeptical of the view that we need an on campus arena ASAP.
The only thing that can be somewhat backed up with physical evidence is that winning attracts recruits. Good players want to play for winning programs, period. How else does Gonzaga build a semi-powerhouse in Spokane? For that matter, how did Georgetown build a powerhouse at a little Catholic school in Washington, DC? The program needs to concentrate on winning, and I think what Jersey and Way are getting at is that although we would all love better facilities, new locker rooms won't beat Syracuse. And there's no real way to quantify what kind of success an on-campus arena will bring the program. The only thing we know is that it will cost $20-40M the University doesn't have.
I think Buffalo hits the nail on the head with his list of smaller things that can be done to improve facilities. It does not take a new arena to create the impression that the University cares about the basketball program. Improvements can be had without sacrificing the endowment to the basketball gods.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jun 13, 2005 0:57:31 GMT -5
Does anyone have an address or email address of someone who I can pester about trying to get the on campus arena moved up the agenda of things for the university to do?
I pretty much agree with the basic premise, which is that coaches and programs attract recruits, but good facilities are a definite plus as well.
The only other thing I wanna say is.... an on campus stadium would be awesome!!! ;D Seriously though, an on campus staidum would go such a long way in establishing a basketball culture on the hilltop, and could potentially bring more attention to the University itself. Say what you will about Duke and their fans, but how many intelligent teens have sat home and watched a duke game on tv and said "I wanna be a part of that!"? How many talented ball players have seen and thought the same thing? No matter how good the team gets, youll never get that same crazy atmosphere in the MCI center. I think an on campus arena would do more than just help attract recruits and help the Athletic Department make some money-- it'd also go a long way in improving school spirit and by extension the general perception of Georgetown across the country... and thats something that you really cant put a price on IMHO.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 13, 2005 6:34:33 GMT -5
You have to understand, however, that TCU enjoys excellent financial support from its alumni and the Fort Worth community. This is because most TCU graduates end up staying in Fort Worth or within the state of Texas. I don't claim to be an expert on fundraising, but I figure it is much easier to fundraise for athletics when bank presidents, oil barons, and captains of industry all live in your backyard and happen to be alums and like going to TCU football games. It seems to me these people, who support TCU athletics with donations AND attendance, would be more likely to plunk down money for new stadiums than wealthy Georgetown alums who live in California, are interested in doing positive things for the communities they live in, and are almost never able to attend a Georgetown basketball game. That's directly responsible from TCU's "Committee of 100", a group of alumni and business leaders in the 1990's who took on the responsibility of not only building better student athletic facilities, but getting the community to support it. At a school not much larger than Georgetown in enrollment (7,000) and with far fewer institutional resources, the results have been impressive. When I go to TCU football games, I park at the brand new Lupton Stadium (3,000 seat baseball park) and walk past many of the new facilities in other sports that have elevated not just the teams, but the entire campus life. In fact, aside from Daniel-Meyer Coliseum, every one of these facilities was either built or renovated in the last 10 years: gofrogs.collegesports.com/facilities/tcu-facilities.html
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2005 8:45:43 GMT -5
You have to understand, however, that TCU enjoys excellent financial support from its alumni and the Fort Worth community. This is because most TCU graduates end up staying in Fort Worth or within the state of Texas. I don't claim to be an expert on fundraising, but I figure it is much easier to fundraise for athletics when bank presidents, oil barons, and captains of industry all live in your backyard and happen to be alums and like going to TCU football games. It seems to me these people, who support TCU athletics with donations AND attendance, would be more likely to plunk down money for new stadiums than wealthy Georgetown alums who live in California, are interested in doing positive things for the communities they live in, and are almost never able to attend a Georgetown basketball game. That's directly responsible from TCU's "Committee of 100", a group of alumni and business leaders in the 1990's who took on the responsibility of not only building better student athletic facilities, but getting the community to support it. At a school not much larger than Georgetown in enrollment (7,000) and with far fewer institutional resources, the results have been impressive. When I go to TCU football games, I park at the brand new Lupton Stadium (3,000 seat baseball park) and walk past many of the new facilities in other sports that have elevated not just the teams, but the entire campus life. In fact, aside from Daniel-Meyer Coliseum, every one of these facilities was either built or renovated in the last 10 years: gofrogs.collegesports.com/facilities/tcu-facilities.htmlCan we somehow start our own "Committee of 100"? Maybe you have to meet a minimum threshold of donating to join, or something like that? Something... ANYTHING to get the ball rolling. Anything but this mindless posting that results in the same point being made over, and over, and over again. I still say we get some support facilities first (weight, film, classrooms) that ALL[/i] of our athletic teams can use and THEN worry about an on-campus arena. Maybe even build a little building near the tenix courts/McD parking lot to house the whole shabang-a-bang. Maybe that's part of the last phase of the MSF, and someone can fill me in if that's the case, but I think those "minor" pieces need to be in place first. As a prospective student-athlete, those things would concern me more, especially since the team is still playing in an NBA arena. I also think we should stop speculating as to what the decision process is for these young men - unless you're one of them or are intimately close to one of them, stop acting like you know. Just like choosing a college for the rest of us, I'm sure there's a zillion little things that go into the choice. An on-campus arena would simply make that choice "Georgetown" a bit easier by demonstrating to EVERYONE that there's a committment to athletics at the university.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 13, 2005 13:24:30 GMT -5
Btw, I am spending the weekend with friends who are NCAA D-I atheletes at Texas Christian University. I asked them what they were thinking when they were recruited to run track at TCU - granted this is not basketball and I am assuming that NCAA D-1 atheletes all think similarly regardless of sport - but I do think that atheletes do consider similar things when deciding which university they will go to. The three runners that I talked to said that what they looked at was "how well they would be taken care of at a University" - this included the coaching staff, the facilties, and academic support services provided for atheletes. They considered the facilties if not on a par with coaching a close second to them, given the realization that there was always a chance that a coach could leave a program, however the facilties are always there. I think this is pretty strong evidence that facilities DO matter. One of my friends also watched the NIT Game in McD and said that if he were an athelete considering Georgetown he would be thinking about why Georgetown had not rewarded a program that had brough it so much pride and prestige can play in such a gym. I would also like to add to this that the fact that we have a good recruiting class this year does not mean that our facilties are not important to recruits it only proves that it is not important to these specific recruits - and we also don't have all of the information on why these specific recruits came to Georgetown ... or any information to assume that the decisions of these players is indicative of college recruits overall. I grew up down the street from the newly built TCU track, which is next door to the new TCU baseball stadium. They have done a great job with facilities, and a lot of credit can be given to AD Eric Hyman, who did a FANTASTIC job as AD before leaving for South Carolina earlier this year. Like best in the nation fantastic. You have to understand, however, that TCU enjoys excellent financial support from its alumni and the Fort Worth community. This is because most TCU graduates end up staying in Fort Worth or within the state of Texas. I don't claim to be an expert on fundraising, but I figure it is much easier to fundraise for athletics when bank presidents, oil barons, and captains of industry all live in your backyard and happen to be alums and like going to TCU football games. It seems to me these people, who support TCU athletics with donations AND attendance, would be more likely to plunk down money for new stadiums than wealthy Georgetown alums who live in California, are interested in doing positive things for the communities they live in, and are almost never able to attend a Georgetown basketball game. (By the way, although TCU's athletic facilities are pretty nice overall, the Frogs' basketball arena, Daniel-Meyer Coliseum, is a crumbling old dome with terrible views of the court. I'd much rather see a game at McDonough. Other than that however, TCU facilities kick GU's tail.) Anyway, hope you had fun in Fort Worth, aka the nicest town nobody on the East Coast has ever heard of. Did you make it downtown or just stick around the smelly TCU bars? As someone who is staying right off the TCU campus near the track this week that is really weird to hear. I do agree that TCU has done an excellent job with its facilities overall because it does have some very deep oil-money pockets in its alumni who stay in the area - the reason for this is that TCU has a really good Geology, Petroleum Engineering, and Petrology program and the area, in the US, anyway to work on oil is roughly Dallas and Houston so its pretty easy to stay around the school. However, I do feel that they are a realistic goal for what we want to become in 20 years - a school of mid-major size who uses good hirings at coaching and AD positions to leverege its alumni to support the program with donations.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jun 13, 2005 13:25:08 GMT -5
That's directly responsible from TCU's "Committee of 100", a group of alumni and business leaders in the 1990's who took on the responsibility of not only building better student athletic facilities, but getting the community to support it. At a school not much larger than Georgetown in enrollment (7,000) and with far fewer institutional resources, the results have been impressive. My impression is that the "getting community support" part of the campaign has been extremely successful. My parents have been season ticket holders for about four years now. A lot of people like them, who didn't grow up in Fort Worth, didn't go to TCU, and don't know what a Horned Frog is, now enjoy going to the games. Interestingly enough, my dad first bought the tickets when the athletic department's ticket office called him at home and offered him a too-good-to-pass-up deal on seats at the 50 yard line. They, and the rest of the new season ticket holders, were almost immediately rewarded with TCU's biggest season in recent history, when the Frogs flirted with the BCS. I'm pretty sure TCU does direct mail as well as direct phone calls. I forget what the exact marketing slogan used in the mailers is, but it's something like "Our Town. Our Team." It seems the "TCU plan" (the marketing to the community part, not the facilities part) would be harder to implement at Georgetown, but could still create some additional local interest in the program.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 13, 2005 13:31:03 GMT -5
Btw, I am here for a week so if you want a travelogue - mainly downtown FW, Bar Dallas and Billy Bobs if I can get in - also seeing the Braves and Rangers game tonight to cheer for America's Team (the Atlanta Braves) and six flags over Texas - my current hungover state is due to a TCU party (not as good as a GU party IMO, but it gets the job done).
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 13, 2005 13:43:05 GMT -5
TCU's model is replicable IMO - what is needed is restructuring the giving system - adding an upper eschelon group that is catered to by the University - this is a touchy issue, but it will definitely benifit the program. Direct mail and direct call marketing of the program and soliciting donations. Marketing the team to the community, even if it has small yields at first, will result in success ultimately IMO because Georgetown has deep pockets and will help the whole community feel like they have a vested interest in the team - if we can't all make it to the games because we have quite an alumni diaspora and we need someone to fill the seats as opposed to Syracuse, UCONN, and others fans.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 13, 2005 14:01:33 GMT -5
America's Team (the Atlanta Braves) If you have to tell people what team you mean by that, it isn't America's Team. The Braves can't even sell out in the playoffs.
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