jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 8, 2019 14:49:48 GMT -5
Surprises the hell of me. The playbook culturally these days seems to be to deny, delay, reject, change topics and to generally acknowledge no shame.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 8, 2019 14:56:29 GMT -5
Here's the issue I have with this assessment - we now want to say that Waters going to LSU was a dirty recruitment, since we know Will Wade is shady. But what about Waters picking Georgetown in the first place? Are we supposed to believe that his original commitment to JT3, who was on the hot seat, was fully above board? That Waters so badly wanted to play for Georgeton and JT3 that he was willing to forego shady offers from other schools? And that only after JT3 got fired did Waters start selling himself to the highest bidder? A few things: - I have no idea if there was anything shady involved with Waters' recruitment, but the news about Wade has to make you at least think twice about it. - There is concrete evidence Wade has engaged in shady behavior. - There is absolutely evidence that JT3 ever engaged in shady recruiting behavior, never mind the type of things Wade may have done based on the wiretaps. So yes, it is completely within the realm of belief that his original commitment was above board, and his quick pivot to LSU wasn't. Quite frankly, I don't think Waters was good enough to warrant the huge types of bribes/shady offers a lot of these other players, Like Bowen got. So maybe there's nothing there. But, as I said, the smoke around Wade's behavior has to make you at least think twice. You have to be a very optimistic person to think Waters's recruitment was not dirty. The kid from New Haven, CT that once seriously considered Yale, commits out of nowhere to LSU with a brand new coach that was not originally recruiting him?
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Mar 8, 2019 15:00:54 GMT -5
Wow, even L$U had to show a rare concern with how blatant Wade's cheating had become. Again, NCAA, no where to be found, this is left for the schools to self-regulate. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26192669/lsu-suspends-wade-indefinitely-amid-fbi-probe"It was a (expletive) hell of a (expletive) offer," Wade continued. "Hell of an offer. ... Especially for a kid who is going to be a two- or three-year kid." In a different telephone call with Dawkins, Wade joked that the player would be compensated more than the "rookie minimum." Wade told Dawkins that he had made deals for "as good of players as him" that were "a lot simpler than this." I am surprised to see LSU respond and do the "right" thing here. Wade, like everyone, is innocent until proven guilty so I have to imagine the school knows there is something to these allegations and is trying to get out in front of them. LSU has never been know as a bastion of morality with their sports programs but it is refreshing to see them step up and take accountability for something their coach seems to have done. The fact that the NCAA can not respond faster (these allegations have been floating around the media for a few months) makes you wonder what type of role they really play in the enforcement of the rules.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 8, 2019 15:08:30 GMT -5
Just a quick note: Wade is innocent until proven guilty in the legal system, but as far as LSU's decision making goes, the NCAA, and quite frankly everywhere else, the criminal standard is really irrelevant. Even if the guy is not convicted of any crimes here, there's likely enough to argue he should not be coaching Division I basketball anywhere. And all we have is the wiretaps. If Wade was doing these things, others will have knowledge about it.
I agree with the LSU suspension, and I agree they shouldn't fire him without learning more (which is probably necessary legally under his contract if they want to fire him for cause, anyway), and if he's innocent of wrong doing, so be it, but for LSU to suspend him you'd have to think they have real concerns.
I am just thankful that Georgetown has always had honorable people at the helm, and avoided these messes.
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HoyaDr
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Post by HoyaDr on Mar 8, 2019 15:15:37 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 8, 2019 15:16:00 GMT -5
Wow, even L$U had to show a rare concern with how blatant Wade's cheating had become. Again, NCAA, no where to be found, this is left for the schools to self-regulate. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26192669/lsu-suspends-wade-indefinitely-amid-fbi-probe"It was a (expletive) hell of a (expletive) offer," Wade continued. "Hell of an offer. ... Especially for a kid who is going to be a two- or three-year kid." In a different telephone call with Dawkins, Wade joked that the player would be compensated more than the "rookie minimum." Wade told Dawkins that he had made deals for "as good of players as him" that were "a lot simpler than this." I am surprised to see LSU respond and do the "right" thing here. Wade, like everyone, is innocent until proven guilty so I have to imagine the school knows there is something to these allegations and is trying to get out in front of them. LSU has never been know as a bastion of morality with their sports programs but it is refreshing to see them step up and take accountability for something their coach seems to have done. The fact that the NCAA can not respond faster (these allegations have been floating around the media for a few months) makes you wonder what type of role they really play in the enforcement of the rules. Pretty sure the NCAA has held off - possibly at the request of the feds - until the federal proceedings have ended.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 8, 2019 15:21:41 GMT -5
Wow, even L$U had to show a rare concern with how blatant Wade's cheating had become. Again, NCAA, no where to be found, this is left for the schools to self-regulate. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26192669/lsu-suspends-wade-indefinitely-amid-fbi-probe"It was a (expletive) hell of a (expletive) offer," Wade continued. "Hell of an offer. ... Especially for a kid who is going to be a two- or three-year kid." In a different telephone call with Dawkins, Wade joked that the player would be compensated more than the "rookie minimum." Wade told Dawkins that he had made deals for "as good of players as him" that were "a lot simpler than this." I am surprised to see LSU respond and do the "right" thing here. Wade, like everyone, is innocent until proven guilty so I have to imagine the school knows there is something to these allegations and is trying to get out in front of them. LSU has never been know as a bastion of morality with their sports programs but it is refreshing to see them step up and take accountability for something their coach seems to have done. The fact that the NCAA can not respond faster (these allegations have been floating around the media for a few months) makes you wonder what type of role they really play in the enforcement of the rules. I am surprised LSU acted as well without due process. But when you think about it, he is on an FBI wire tap saying these things, he is pretty darn guilty. This is like literally being caught red-handed with both hands still in the cookie jar. If Wade had any decency left, he would work out a settlement of his remaining contract with LSU, resign and apply for a HC job in the g-league. Spare both parties the ugliness of keeping this in the public eye.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 8, 2019 15:44:02 GMT -5
I am surprised to see LSU respond and do the "right" thing here. Wade, like everyone, is innocent until proven guilty so I have to imagine the school knows there is something to these allegations and is trying to get out in front of them. LSU has never been know as a bastion of morality with their sports programs but it is refreshing to see them step up and take accountability for something their coach seems to have done. The fact that the NCAA can not respond faster (these allegations have been floating around the media for a few months) makes you wonder what type of role they really play in the enforcement of the rules. I am surprised LSU acted as well without due process. But when you think about it, he is on an FBI wire tap saying these things, he is pretty darn guilty. This is like literally being caught red-handed with both hands still in the cookie jar. If Wade had any decency left, he would work out a settlement of his remaining contract with LSU, resign and apply for a HC job in the g-league. Spare both parties the ugliness of keeping this in the public eye. If Wade is gone, and you're Pat/Kirby, would you steer clear of the LSU roster/recruits/prospects or move in?
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Mar 8, 2019 15:54:04 GMT -5
I am surprised LSU acted as well without due process. But when you think about it, he is on an FBI wire tap saying these things, he is pretty darn guilty. This is like literally being caught red-handed with both hands still in the cookie jar. If Wade had any decency left, he would work out a settlement of his remaining contract with LSU, resign and apply for a HC job in the g-league. Spare both parties the ugliness of keeping this in the public eye. If Wade is gone, and you're PAt/Kirby, would you steer clear of the LSU roster/recruits/prospects or move in? I would think you have to wait and see how some of this plays out. The NCAA would have to investigate who the players are who allegedly go these payments and if that can be proven, then those players are going to be ineligible for a while. I agree that some of the LSU players are probably going to be leaving that program after the year, but some of them like the Naz Reid kid are probably going to the NBA. Some of the others will look to transfer but unless you are confident they are really clean and not involved, then it may be a waste of time. Kansas, who should probably be under investigation also, invested a lot of time in the big kid they recruited and then he has basically been ineligible since he arrived at the school. Kirby is pretty connected in the south so he may have a good sense of who is clean and who is not, so maybe he can identify players to pursue but seems risky and just puts the program in a difficult position if you end up with the wrong kid.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 8, 2019 16:02:40 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed. Similar to my earlier post - the accusation you're making implies that Waters only became "corrupt" after he decommited from Georgetown - that Georgetown kept "their noses clean" and recruited Waters the "right way". I think it's an enormous leap of faith to think that Waters/his camp only could be corrupted after he decided not to atttend Georgetown. To me, he was either corrupt all along, or, more likely, he didn't get significant benefits to go to LSU. But the idea that he was lilly white clean until he ditched Georgetown is Pollyana homerism.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 8, 2019 16:04:19 GMT -5
I am surprised LSU acted as well without due process. But when you think about it, he is on an FBI wire tap saying these things, he is pretty darn guilty. This is like literally being caught red-handed with both hands still in the cookie jar. If Wade had any decency left, he would work out a settlement of his remaining contract with LSU, resign and apply for a HC job in the g-league. Spare both parties the ugliness of keeping this in the public eye. If Wade is gone, and you're Pat/Kirby, would you steer clear of the LSU roster/recruits/prospects or move in? Did Jay Wright steer clear of Jahvon Quinerly?
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 8, 2019 16:08:16 GMT -5
This was the one quote I've seen that could be referencing Waters:
In a different telephone call with Dawkins, Wade joked that the player would be compensated more than the "rookie minimum."
Wade told Dawkins that he had made deals for "as good of players as him" that were "a lot simpler than this."
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 8, 2019 16:13:32 GMT -5
I am surprised to see LSU respond and do the "right" thing here. Wade, like everyone, is innocent until proven guilty so I have to imagine the school knows there is something to these allegations and is trying to get out in front of them. LSU has never been know as a bastion of morality with their sports programs but it is refreshing to see them step up and take accountability for something their coach seems to have done. The fact that the NCAA can not respond faster (these allegations have been floating around the media for a few months) makes you wonder what type of role they really play in the enforcement of the rules. I am surprised LSU acted as well without due process. But when you think about it, he is on an FBI wire tap saying these things, he is pretty darn guilty. This is like literally being caught red-handed with both hands still in the cookie jar. If Wade had any decency left, he would work out a settlement of his remaining contract with LSU, resign and apply for a HC job in the g-league. Spare both parties the ugliness of keeping this in the public eye. It's not a due process issue. LSU suspended Wade; they didn't fire him. They are paying him under his contract until a final decision is made. So long as LSU follows procedures for contract termination, Wade's due process and contractual rights will be protected. This may well turn into a Rick Pitino/Louisville type of situation, where there is a termination "for cause," followed by civil litigation.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 8, 2019 16:17:30 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed. Similar to my earlier post - the accusation you're making implies that Waters only became "corrupt" after he decommited from Georgetown - that Georgetown kept "their noses clean" and recruited Waters the "right way". I think it's an enormous leap of faith to think that Waters/his camp only could be corrupted after he decided not to atttend Georgetown. To me, he was either corrupt all along, or, more likely, he didn't get significant benefits to go to LSU. But the idea that he was lilly white clean until he ditched Georgetown is Pollyana homerism. Corrupted after he decided not to attend Georgetown is a possible scenario....even if you deem it unlikely.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Mar 8, 2019 16:19:15 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed. Similar to my earlier post - the accusation you're making implies that Waters only became "corrupt" after he decommited from Georgetown - that Georgetown kept "their noses clean" and recruited Waters the "right way". I think it's an enormous leap of faith to think that Waters/his camp only could be corrupted after he decided not to atttend Georgetown. To me, he was either corrupt all along, or, more likely, he didn't get significant benefits to go to LSU. But the idea that he was lilly white clean until he ditched Georgetown is Pollyana homerism. Perhaps, but the fact is that there is also no evidence to support your contention that his recruitment was either dirty all around or it wasn't (all around).
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 8, 2019 16:19:34 GMT -5
If Wade is gone, and you're Pat/Kirby, would you steer clear of the LSU roster/recruits/prospects or move in? Did Jay Wright steer clear of Jahvon Quinerly? I think Quinerly is going to steer clear of Wright after the season.
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justsaying
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Post by justsaying on Mar 8, 2019 16:20:00 GMT -5
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 8, 2019 16:29:13 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed. Similar to my earlier post - the accusation you're making implies that Waters only became "corrupt" after he decommited from Georgetown - that Georgetown kept "their noses clean" and recruited Waters the "right way". I think it's an enormous leap of faith to think that Waters/his camp only could be corrupted after he decided not to atttend Georgetown. To me, he was either corrupt all along, or, more likely, he didn't get significant benefits to go to LSU. But the idea that he was lilly white clean until he ditched Georgetown is Pollyana homerism. Waters got quite a lot increasing attention as his senior season went on. Watch his video interviews and articles where he mentions that a lot of people were asking about why was he going to GU if it was in shambles from the OCC on to the BE (Isaac departing & terrible losses), questions about fit with playing style (I remember he answered he could play any style) and then when all the rumors started in the second semester about JT3's job and players leaving. The question to Waters should be who was contacting him and what was said or even offered, if any.
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HoyaDr
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Post by HoyaDr on Mar 8, 2019 17:32:16 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that Waters and/or other LSU players committments to LSU probably involved some sort of corrupt act. Waters decommitted from Gtown and committed to LSU so quickly. I mean their now suspended coach is on tape implying that this is not his first rodeo. I'm sure that there too many coaches to count doing this. It's no secret. Plenty of NBA players have admitted to taking money or gifts years after the fact. IMO the player involved should be suspended too. Hell, take away the tourney from LSU. Some may say that's harsh since we have no way of knowing which specific player or players were also "persuaded" to play for LSU, but hey, the there were wrongdoings on every level in the program including players and coaches. Georgetown and many other programs around the country keep their noses clean and recruit the right way, and in some ways punished for it. Time for all these corrupt players and coaches to reap what they sow, at least until the system is fixed. Similar to my earlier post - the accusation you're making implies that Waters only became "corrupt" after he decommited from Georgetown - that Georgetown kept "their noses clean" and recruited Waters the "right way". I think it's an enormous leap of faith to think that Waters/his camp only could be corrupted after he decided not to atttend Georgetown. To me, he was either corrupt all along, or, more likely, he didn't get significant benefits to go to LSU. But the idea that he was lilly white clean until he ditched Georgetown is Pollyana homerism. He may have not been clean before committing to Georgetown, nobody here knows that. He may have listened to offers with money involved and decided to take the clean route and play for a clean program. He also could have been clean the whole time until he decommitted and decided to go the corrupt route. Nobody here knows that as well. All I'm saying is that one can look at all the objective data and deduce that he probably wasn't clean when he committed to LSU. If there was no corruption involved in his recruitment to LSU then good for him. Still doesn't matter, he's playing for a corrupt program and his name will be associated with it whether he was involved or not. He would have to be naive to think LSU wasn't corrupt. Wade was signing highly regarded recruits left and right and the program had no recent success that I can think of. Listen, if Pat came in and in the first two years he got a bunch of 4 or 5 star recruits, I would raise my eyebrows in that situation too. Let's not act like lawyers here and think oh everybody is innocent until proven guilty. We are talking about a corrupt coach with a team full of kids who probably need the money or whatever he was offering. He's on tape saying he has done this multiple times and those times were actually easier in the past. Fine it may not be Waters, but if I had to place a bet, I would bet that he wasn't clean at the time of his commitment to LSU.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 8, 2019 17:53:08 GMT -5
To be honest that team needs to be disqualified now from the NCAA tournament. (Not 3-5 years from now when nobody cares.
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