mchoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 375
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Post by mchoya on Feb 1, 2022 11:07:28 GMT -5
It is such a non-starter that I cannot believe we are wasting time discussing this. I hate to pull a "back in my day", but the most significant town-gown fight that the current cohort of students has experienced has been... what exactly? Georgetown and the neighbors were in such an all-out brawl in the late 2000s, early 2010s that final approval of the campus plan was described as a "peace-treaty-like setting." Other accounts of campus life in those time periods present entrenched neighbors at loggerheads with University on the most minor of issues. Now you want to add twenty home dates which will tie up Georgetown with even more rush hour traffic AND have no parking available? Good luck. And to what end? The on-campus arena isn't the panacea that supporters make it out to be. Let's look at a former Big East member whose basketball program has fallen on hard times, and seems to address all of the commonly held complaints of people who are critical of the CapOne experience (on campus arena! students on the sideline!)... Pitt. If that's not enough, how about a local team with a fresh young coach that's second in their conference? George Mason's recent attendance, with a modern on-campus arena, has been 2,687 (34%), 2,436 (31%), and 3,222 (41%) over the past three games. Let's think about other ways to build a home court advantage (run more buses! Stop playing games at 6:30 and 8:30 PM for weeknight home games! open more security lines so it doesn't take thirty minutes to get into the arena before tip off) rather than waste time thinking about an answer that won't help. Otherwise, our home games will be at a 5,000 seat arena: St. E's. Exactly! I had to laugh when one poster said we could avoid the parking problem because adding 3,000+ seats to McDonough would not constitute an "addition" to the gym. Can you imagine how much fun attorneys for our Georgetown neighbors would have debunking that theory? They literally fought over twice-daily private trash hauling. From the WCP:A significant on-campus arena is not happening.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 1, 2022 11:08:20 GMT -5
Lots of good comments here on this thread. Nothing is imminent, of course, but it deserves the conversation. Some thoughts:
1. Does anyone expect Patrick Ewing to be talking about facilities right now? It's the least of his concerns. While he apparently forgot how many games he played at McDonough Gymnasium (an exhibition game each year, five regular season games as a freshman, and one as a junior), GU coaches avoid facilities talk entirely because, in part, it's a tool that schools use to recruit negatively against them. Some of our teams play in city parks, some play on the wrong surface, others don't have any facility at all. A track recruit visiting Georgetown sees...nothing. Georgetown went from the worst football stadium in Division I to only the third or fourth worst. The newest sport on campus can't play on campus because the squash courts at Yates were not built to regulation size.
When Capital One Arena is full, it's very good, and when it's not, it's very, very bad. Teams don't have to negatively recruit, because the recruits see it on TV. There's a completely different discussion on how Georgetown has managed the fan base (a harvesting strategy appears to be the current approach) and it's one that needs to be discussed. Until then, on-campus basketball entirely aspirational and doesn't address the half dozen projects ahead of it, waiting to get on the taxiway to a runway. And it certainly doesn't address cost and the state of philanthropy in the athletics base. Coming off a Final Four, it still took nine years and GU still didn't raised all the money needed to complete the Thompson center... and that was in good times, not bad.
2. Re: "the residents will never allow it" argument, a wise alumnus once told me a point on this that puts it into perspective. The Georgetown Citizens Association and their legal battles over the years were based on one principle: residential real estate. In fact, many of the leaders of that group were real estate agents. Enrollment caps and fighting off-campus housing was a means to protect the values of the Georgetown real estate market. Every townhouse filled with students is a townhouse that can't be sold for seven figures. If the University were the real enemy, they would litigate to reduce enrollment, end all dormitory living, and put the school out of business. That's not the aim.
When projects take place that do not upset the real estate calculus, it proceeds. Where was the outcry over the enormous Medstar construction project? It wasn't there. In a perfect world, Georgetown will have upwards of 4,000 people on campus for six games a year at Cooper Field, but there was no attempt at scuttling that project. No one sues to stop attendees at Homecoming, Reunion, or Commencement because they aren't a threat to buying and selling townhouses. The 2000 plan faced no visible opposition in the community because it wasn't a driver to put more people off-campus. Properly positioned, a on-campus home for indoor sports can do the same.
3. Cantilevering seats into McDonough is an interesting premise (this was argued in The HOYA in 1983 without any support) but a secondary issue is that McDonough Gymnasium is still very mush a working building with hundreds of students, coaches, and administrators within it. Any construction project relocates hundreds of people, and to where? Put aside the concept that McDonough basically has one and only one public entrance and exit, facility construction in 2022 has all sorts of hurdles, figurative and literal over and above sheer capacity, from ADA to sustainability to basic plumbing. How does a single concession stand (which doubles as an employee break room) support 5,000 people, assuming they're not all going to eat Kenner hot dogs? Where do people congregate pre-game and halftime in portions of the building which are largely off-limits to the public? The lobby is now a trophy room and not exactly a place for hundreds of people to mill around. Do the end days of Yates Field House necessitate a scenario unseen in 50 years, namely, moving intramurals to McDonough when building a new facility? If so, GU will need all the floor space they can get.
None of the above are deal-breakers but they complicate a premise that coaches and athletic directors are frankly hesitant to discuss, if not outright advised to avoid publicly. John Thompson never came out forcefully for renovating McDonough. Craig Esherick's name was front and center on the 2000 plan and caught some heat internally for getting ahead of the University. JT III steered clear of it and Patrick Ewing is doing likewise. And for those who follow history, note that McDonough Gymnasium was not built by University largesse. It was driven by the Alumni Association, which went out and raised roughly $800,000 of the $1.2 million cost. Without it, athletics might still be housed in what is now the Davis Center (nee Ryan Administration Building/Ryan Gym).
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tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 799
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Post by tgo on Feb 1, 2022 11:26:31 GMT -5
On campus arena would be great for the students and most likely lead to a better home court advantage. Also would be great to have a place to host graduation, concerts & other large events. BUT, even if it were possible to clear all the hurdles and make it happen (spoiler alert, not going to happen), it would still be very tough to turn away so many potential supporters. During the JT3 era we were averaging 12K a game, much more for conference games. www.hoyabasketball.com/records/bb_homeatt.htm If we had a 6,000 person arena on campus students would take more of the seats than they do now. When we are good, we would be turning away at least 7,000 on the average night. I am sure the avg ticket cost is over $25 but for arguments sake, at $25 per ticket and 15 home games, that is over $2.6 million in ticket sales. I dont know the details of our rental of the phone booth for games so i am sure that is not pure profit but whatever the break down is, that is a lot of money to leave on the table.
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Post by reformation on Feb 1, 2022 11:55:57 GMT -5
Maybe when DeGioia retires subject will be revisited. Seats idea is interesting. Suspect dynamic leadership could get something done. Would expect whoever replaces Degioia, especially if an outside to reevaluate the whole athletics enterprise.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 1, 2022 11:57:40 GMT -5
Georgetown residents probably have other bigger worries. A man was fatally shot Monday evening on one of Georgetown’s busiest streets in what may have been a targeted attack, according to the D.C. police. The shooting, reported in the 3300 block of M Street NW a little after 6 p.m., may have followed an argument, said D.C. Police Chief Robert J. Contee III. He said police were searching for a suspect. www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/01/31/man-shot-georgetown-critical/
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C86
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by C86 on Feb 1, 2022 12:00:26 GMT -5
Isn't part of the problem with construction projects on campus that there are multiple layers of oversight -- the District, the Olde Georgetown Board, the Commission on Fine Arts, and the neighborhood group(s)? I remember these groups being at cross-purposes over the Thompson Center, with one group complaining that the building looked too much like a gym, and another saying that it did not look enough like a gym. The neighborhood relations staff at Georgetown must have the patience of saints.
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,852
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Post by hoyaguy on Feb 1, 2022 14:42:34 GMT -5
Isn't part of the problem with construction projects on campus that there are multiple layers of oversight -- the District, the Olde Georgetown Board, the Commission on Fine Arts, and the neighborhood group(s)? I remember these groups being at cross-purposes over the Thompson Center, with one group complaining that the building looked too much like a gym, and another saying that it did not look enough like a gym. The neighborhood relations staff at Georgetown must have the patience of saints.Yeah I really don't get a lot of the bozo committees and bs that just clumps together and makes any kind of development near impossible like imagine neighbors complaining about the Thompson Center when you literally cannot see it from any outside street and even most of campus can't see it. Like so many of these rich goons move in and somehow think their opinions should matter more than the collective needs and beliefs of thousands of people, a hospital, and a university that has been here since before the year 1800 like we didnt just spring out of nowhere after they moved in to inconvenience them, even the really old people around here had to kick the minorities out before they decided living here was nice so like turn your brain on and realize there are pros and cons to living next to a school before you complain about stuff that doesn't concern you or something you should've thought of before
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 1, 2022 14:53:57 GMT -5
Isn't part of the problem with construction projects on campus that there are multiple layers of oversight -- the District, the Olde Georgetown Board, the Commission on Fine Arts, and the neighborhood group(s)? I remember these groups being at cross-purposes over the Thompson Center, with one group complaining that the building looked too much like a gym, and another saying that it did not look enough like a gym. The neighborhood relations staff at Georgetown must have the patience of saints.Yeah I really don't get a lot of the bozo committees and bs that just clumps together and makes any kind of development near impossible like imagine neighbors complaining about the Thompson Center when you literally cannot see it from any outside street and even most of campus can't see it. Like so many of these rich goons move in and somehow think their opinions should matter more than the collective needs and beliefs of thousands of people, a hospital, and a university that has been here since before the year 1800 like we didnt just spring out of nowhere after they moved in to inconvenience them, even the really old people around here had to kick the minorities out before they decided living here was nice so like turn your brain on and realize there are pros and cons to living next to a school before you complain about stuff that doesn't concern you or something you should've thought of before In tort law: If the Georgetown property owners were aware of the presence of the University and consider it a "nuisance-creating activity" at the time they purchased their property, a GU may invoke the defense of 'coming to the nuisance'. This defense effectively argues that the plaintiff property owners knew what they were getting themselves into and assumed the risk of the perceived harm. It's similar to buying property near an airport then complaining about the aircraft noise.
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,852
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Post by hoyaguy on Feb 1, 2022 15:24:56 GMT -5
Yeah I really don't get a lot of the bozo committees and bs that just clumps together and makes any kind of development near impossible like imagine neighbors complaining about the Thompson Center when you literally cannot see it from any outside street and even most of campus can't see it. Like so many of these rich goons move in and somehow think their opinions should matter more than the collective needs and beliefs of thousands of people, a hospital, and a university that has been here since before the year 1800 like we didnt just spring out of nowhere after they moved in to inconvenience them, even the really old people around here had to kick the minorities out before they decided living here was nice so like turn your brain on and realize there are pros and cons to living next to a school before you complain about stuff that doesn't concern you or something you should've thought of before In tort law: If the Georgetown property owners were aware of the presence of the University and consider it a "nuisance-creating activity" at the time they purchased their property, a GU may invoke the defense of 'coming to the nuisance'. This defense effectively argues that the plaintiff property owners knew what they were getting themselves into and assumed the risk of the perceived harm. It's similar to buying property near an airport then complaining about the aircraft noise. Makes sense, in today’s lawsuit heavy world, I often feel like not enough people understand or respect that every decision you make comes with risk and downside and just because something goes wrong doesn’t mean you have the right to make it other people’s problem especially when it is reasonable to think it could happen (other than cases of negligence or other gross things of course, I’m not a lawyer that’s just my take)
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 1, 2022 15:43:34 GMT -5
Yeah I really don't get a lot of the bozo committees and bs that just clumps together and makes any kind of development near impossible like imagine neighbors complaining about the Thompson Center when you literally cannot see it from any outside street and even most of campus can't see it. Like so many of these rich goons move in and somehow think their opinions should matter more than the collective needs and beliefs of thousands of people, a hospital, and a university that has been here since before the year 1800 like we didnt just spring out of nowhere after they moved in to inconvenience them, even the really old people around here had to kick the minorities out before they decided living here was nice so like turn your brain on and realize there are pros and cons to living next to a school before you complain about stuff that doesn't concern you or something you should've thought of before In tort law: If the Georgetown property owners were aware of the presence of the University and consider it a "nuisance-creating activity" at the time they purchased their property, a GU may invoke the defense of 'coming to the nuisance'. This defense effectively argues that the plaintiff property owners knew what they were getting themselves into and assumed the risk of the perceived harm. It's similar to buying property near an airport then complaining about the aircraft noise. Some things change. Some things do not. Residential neighbors of the University have been and will always be jerks to the point where this logical argument matters not at all to them.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Feb 1, 2022 15:51:11 GMT -5
Isn't part of the problem with construction projects on campus that there are multiple layers of oversight -- the District, the Olde Georgetown Board, the Commission on Fine Arts, and the neighborhood group(s)? I remember these groups being at cross-purposes over the Thompson Center, with one group complaining that the building looked too much like a gym, and another saying that it did not look enough like a gym. The neighborhood relations staff at Georgetown must have the patience of saints.Yeah I really don't get a lot of the bozo committees and bs that just clumps together and makes any kind of development near impossible like imagine neighbors complaining about the Thompson Center when you literally cannot see it from any outside street and even most of campus can't see it. Like so many of these rich goons move in and somehow think their opinions should matter more than the collective needs and beliefs of thousands of people, a hospital, and a university that has been here since before the year 1800 like we didnt just spring out of nowhere after they moved in to inconvenience them, even the really old people around here had to kick the minorities out before they decided living here was nice so like turn your brain on and realize there are pros and cons to living next to a school before you complain about stuff that doesn't concern you or something you should've thought of before Same problem Las Vegas had. There was a pig farm on the outer borders of Las Vegas. When the housing boom started, houses were built near the pig farm. Then the residents of those houses started to complain about the smell from the pig farm and wanted the city to get rid of the pig farm. Let the buyer beware.
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metaphor
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 195
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Post by metaphor on Feb 2, 2022 11:31:15 GMT -5
My understanding is that because the renovation of McDonough was included in prior 10 year plans, that it is not something that is subject to the same process as when building something new. That is not to say the GTown residents won't complain or file a suit, but rather there would be less opportunities to do so.
Given DFW's point about 4000 people attending games a Cooper did not scare the residents, not sure why retrofitting McDonough to 5000 seats would be an issue. It might be, but it does not make it a non-starter. And neither does parking since most people going to the games at McDonough would be students.
The real obstacle to this is money, money, money, money. But as I said before, If DeGoia wants this, they will raise the funds and will do it.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,381
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Post by drquigley on Feb 3, 2022 21:52:07 GMT -5
Really? After the half empty gym at tonight's game you think we need an on campus arena? Shocking how empty the gym looked. We had bigger crowds in the Tommy Okeefe/Jack Magee era. I was gobsmacked when I saw the empty bleachers.
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hoyajmw
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyajmw on Feb 3, 2022 22:01:23 GMT -5
Really? After the half empty gym at tonight's game you think we need an on campus arena? Shocking how empty the gym looked. We had bigger crowds in the Tommy Okeefe/Jack Magee era. I was gobsmacked when I saw the empty bleachers. You probably now know this from the recent postings on the game thread, Doc, but apparently the administration limited attendance to what we saw and more students would have attended if allowed. I’m sure admin thought, after saying no students at all, that allowing ANY was enough of a gift to not be troubled by student desires to allow more.
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Post by trillesthoya on Feb 4, 2022 0:42:57 GMT -5
Really? After the half empty gym at tonight's game you think we need an on campus arena? Shocking how empty the gym looked. We had bigger crowds in the Tommy Okeefe/Jack Magee era. I was gobsmacked when I saw the empty bleachers. They limited student entry for Covid reasons. Would’ve been much better attendance if they had executed this properly.
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,852
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Post by hoyaguy on Feb 4, 2022 0:48:24 GMT -5
They apparently didnt let students transfer tickets either so if someone couldn't go then the ticket was wasted as well
Lol such a georgetown move: limit student attendance/fun but put them all crowded into one section anyway
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Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by Elvado on Feb 4, 2022 4:43:22 GMT -5
I’d like some black coffee please…
I’m sorry we don’t know how to make that here
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mchoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 375
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Post by mchoya on Feb 4, 2022 9:35:55 GMT -5
Really? After the half empty gym at tonight's game you think we need an on campus arena? Shocking how empty the gym looked. We had bigger crowds in the Tommy Okeefe/Jack Magee era. I was gobsmacked when I saw the empty bleachers. You probably now know this from the recent postings on the game thread, Doc, but apparently the administration limited attendance to what we saw and more students would have attended if allowed. I’m sure admin thought, after saying no students at all, that allowing ANY was enough of a gift to not be troubled by student desires to allow more. They limited entry for Covid reasons, and then packed everyone in one section instead of spreading them out to maintain social distancing. It’s no longer incompetence towards maybe the only group that still cares enough to watch the worst team in the modern era of the program, it’s active malice. It seems that time and again, McD as an institution sees fans and support as an irritant to be managed, rather than a group to engage. Lucky for them, next year there won’t be any for them to deal with.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2022 10:39:19 GMT -5
What a disgrace. Okay so people on this Board know why the gym was empty and probably the parents of students know it but did the University realize THAT THOUSANDS OF ALUMNI AND COLLEGE BASKETBALL FANS AROUND THE COUNTRY WATCHING THE GAME NOW THINK THAT GEORGETOWN BASKETBALL CAN'T EVEN FILL ITS DINKY GYM? I think it is obvious now that the posters on this Board care a lot more about Georgetown basketball than does the University Administration.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,204
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Post by hoya9797 on Feb 4, 2022 10:42:23 GMT -5
What a disgrace. Okay so people on this Board know why the gym was empty and probably the parents of students know it but did the University realize THAT THOUSANDS OF ALUMNI AND COLLEGE BASKETBALL FANS AROUND THE COUNTRY WATCHING THE GAME NOW THINK THAT GEORGETOWN BASKETBALL CAN'T EVEN FILL ITS DINKY GYM? I think it is obvious now that the posters on this Board care a lot more about Georgetown basketball than does the University Administration. The good news is that I bet it was more like hundreds of people watching that game.
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