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Post by jamaicahoya on Jan 5, 2017 21:37:04 GMT -5
I think JTIII is a proud enough man to know when to go. If he feels he cannot coach a team capable of competing in the Big East, he will step down. Until then I will support him. Ditto
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 22:25:25 GMT -5
There's the broken record. If I had the time to pull up the posts from last year when we ended I'd find the posts about how we need to make the tournament this year or else it has to be changed. But again, we'll act like this is a season can be saved and if not, it's some isolated instance. What's the motive for this as I find you and FF not rational if you went to this school and care about winning. How dare you question my loyalty. I went to this school, and have been following this program, long before you. I care very much about the program - but I have developed enough perspective that I don't scream for change after every loss, mock and belittle anyone who doesn't, but instead prefer to wait until a season ends before making my own assessment of whether and what changes are needed. You don't know any of that to be true. I'm guessing you are right but I also care about this school and that's why I have to give some tough love which gets more tiresome with the people here who just don't get it. I can actually remember a time when coming to a message board never crossed my mind as I was content just watching games and thinking things were fine. I didn't know people like you and these other Blue and Gray guys existed and I was probably a lot happier then. It all fell through after FGCU which was the straw for me. I really don't enjoy the games anymore but am choosing not to quit watching and following but am channeling my frustrations towards correcting the problem. It's very clear to see what that is - obviously coach needs three or four more years until he can get some talent to coach.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 22:26:29 GMT -5
Enough said. Have no real opinion than why post? You need to ask yourself that one. By the way - I have a VERY STRONG real opinion about something - but I don't want to force Dan to ban me, so I will keep it to myself.🤐 I can't imagine what that would be?
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 22:34:47 GMT -5
The lack of support and apologizing tonight is deafening. Can't wait for those snipers to come back on tomorrow with same nonsense about the next game and how we can right this through some crazy win streak against teams we can('t) beat. If this isn't Deja Vu I don't know what is. What the heck is there to apologize for? The team lost. It was not for lack of effort, preparation, or strategy...Providence just outplayed us down the stretch. Disappointing, but no huge shock...time to move on to Butler and support the team in its next game. Oh, they lost. Shocking. No huge shock because that's what we've become and that is the whole point. It's getting too easy for you and others to just accept another loss when we are now 0-3 in a tough league where we are bottom feeding. That's plenty to apologize for.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 22:41:44 GMT -5
Coaching changes based on performance are not the norm at Georgetown without some incident of scandal or malfeasance. It's why Pete Wilk has been head baseball coach for 18 years, without a single winning season. In fact, Georgetown hasn't had a winning season since 1986. It's why Kevin Warne, with the worst record in 30 years of men's lacrosse, is still coaching despite no NCAA bids for men's lacrosse in 10 years. It's why Kevin Kelly might still be at Georgetown were it not for Pete Lembo offering him $150K to coach at Ball State. For those who say, "well, it's not basketball", that's the point. Georgetown prides itself institutionally on not being a way point for coaches. Except that the school always (at least in the modern era) treated basketball differently from all other sports. From funding to autonomy to travel to [you name it], men's basketball is different from every other sport. I agree that in other sports, particularly those that aren't fully funded, winning is only one part of the evaluation process. And aside from malfeasance, change is unusual. For sure, that carries over to basketball in the sense that winning and losing is only part of the evaluation process. But I don't think it's accurate to say it's the same as other sports. Winning and losing is a much bigger part of the evaluation process than in other sports. In short, even if Georgetown provides its men's basketball coach with more rope than would most other schools, it doesn't provide as long a rope as it does to coaches in its other sports. The school cares about perception (from the public; from alumni) at least somewhat. And it cares a good deal -- necessarily -- about finances. If donations and attendance dry up, as they did at the close of the Esherick era, the school will make a move out of necessity. We can be nearly certain III will never embarrass the school like Craig did, so he'll never have that strike against him, but I don't think that is a precondition. Despite Eagle's badgering, the only way to reasonably analyze this is at the end of the season. If the season is a debacle -- a losing record, etc. -- well, I think there is a decent chance the school makes a move or makes it clear that next year is make or break. Sounds like a broken record from last year. I've heard this song before. And then we'll get all fired up in the offseason about our fancy recruits/tranfers. Then they will play and we will complain on the board about the players and them not meshing. Then will talk about waiting until the end of the season to make any judgment...
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 22:44:11 GMT -5
Look, Eagle, we get it, you think a coaching change has long been overdue. You are not the only one. Many agree. Even many who didn't initially agree are coming around to that conclusion. However, you are continuing to harp on the same points over and over and, honestly, you are making this site unreadable. I don't see how your personal mission to hijack this site is going to have any effect on the administration's decisions regarding the future of the program, so please knock it off. This request has nothing to do with disagreement with your position, defense of the status quo, or anything like that. I'm only getting started if this season continues down this path. I'm trying to hold back my real feelings with respect for the board admins. However, this is one of the most illogical/fearful fanbases (if this board is representative of it but I don't think it is) in the country. We at least have that going for us.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Jan 5, 2017 22:57:02 GMT -5
What the heck is there to apologize for? The team lost. It was not for lack of effort, preparation, or strategy...Providence just outplayed us down the stretch. Disappointing, but no huge shock...time to move on to Butler and support the team in its next game. Oh, they lost. Shocking. No huge shock because that's what we've become and that is the whole point. It's getting too easy for you and others to just accept another loss when we are now 0-3 in a tough league where we are bottom feeding. That's plenty to apologize for. hoyalove4ever has been like that at since last year. My question for you is how would you rank the bottom 1/3 of the league? Do you think St. Johns and DePaul are the better teams right now?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 5, 2017 22:59:50 GMT -5
How dare you question my loyalty. I went to this school, and have been following this program, long before you. I care very much about the program - but I have developed enough perspective that I don't scream for change after every loss, mock and belittle anyone who doesn't, but instead prefer to wait until a season ends before making my own assessment of whether and what changes are needed. You don't know any of that to be true. I'm guessing you are right but I also care about this school and that's why I have to give some tough love which gets more tiresome with the people here who just don't get it. I can actually remember a time when coming to a message board never crossed my mind as I was content just watching games and thinking things were fine. I didn't know people like you and these other Blue and Gray guys existed and I was probably a lot happier then. It all fell through after FGCU which was the straw for me. I really don't enjoy the games anymore but am choosing not to quit watching and following but am channeling my frustrations towards correcting the problem. It's very clear to see what that is - obviously coach needs three or four more years until he can get some talent to coach. I have never once said or even suggested that he should get 3 or 4 more free and clear years, nor that there is no talent on this squad, so I assume you are referring to others. And you also know that I have never accused you of not caring about the program. But we all care in our own way.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 23:01:07 GMT -5
Oh, they lost. Shocking. No huge shock because that's what we've become and that is the whole point. It's getting too easy for you and others to just accept another loss when we are now 0-3 in a tough league where we are bottom feeding. That's plenty to apologize for. hoyalove4ever has been like that at since last year. My question for you is how would you rank the bottom 1/3 of the league? Do you think St. Johns and DePaul are the better teams right now? I still hope we can sweep DePaul but I'm starting to think we at best split with St. John's. I viewed Providence as another bottom half team that hopefully we can split with. Any way you realistic add up the wins and losses the rest of the way based on what we've seen it doesn't end well for the 16/17 Hoyas. My question back would be, do we finish with better overall record than last year?
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by This Just In on Jan 5, 2017 23:11:56 GMT -5
hoyalove4ever has been like that at since last year. My question for you is how would you rank the bottom 1/3 of the league? Do you think St. Johns and DePaul are the better teams right now? I still hope we can sweep DePaul but I'm starting to think we at best split with St. John's. I viewed Providence as another bottom half team that hopefully we can split with. Any way you realistic add up the wins and losses the rest of the way based on what we've seen it doesn't end well for the 16/17 Hoyas. My question back would be, do we finish with better overall record than last year? Last year the team ended the Reg. Season losing 9 of 10 and going 2-12 down the stretch including the BET. Last year's team did not lose its 3rd BE game till Jan. 30th, this year's team could lose 6 BE games by the same date. Right now I would say that is a 50/50 chance. January ends with games @ Xavier Creighton @ Butler @depaul and this does not include the game on Saturday vs Butler nor the Monday game against St. Johns.
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deacon
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Post by deacon on Jan 5, 2017 23:24:23 GMT -5
You have to be kidding. Have to be. Not at all. When I say that I support the program and staff, I mean it. I believe there is although too much turnover in college sports and am glad Georgetown is not part of that problem. Stay the course and stick by your man. You do realize that by the year 2020 if every season between now and then is a losing one, the only people attending games will be those required to work at Verizon, the respective teams and fans of the opposition. That's not to mention the fact that we would arguably be the worst college basketball program in a major conference, a national laughingstock/afterthought and a burden of unimaginable proportions on the conference as a whole. But ... yeah ... let's stay on that course. To a hole of irrelevance so deep we might never get out of it just so we can beat our chests at how committed we were to it.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 5, 2017 23:30:05 GMT -5
How dare you question my loyalty. I went to this school, and have been following this program, long before you. I care very much about the program - but I have developed enough perspective that I don't scream for change after every loss, mock and belittle anyone who doesn't, but instead prefer to wait until a season ends before making my own assessment of whether and what changes are needed. You don't know any of that to be true. I'm guessing you are right but I also care about this school and that's why I have to give some tough love which gets more tiresome with the people here who just don't get it. I can actually remember a time when coming to a message board never crossed my mind as I was content just watching games and thinking things were fine. I didn't know people like you and these other Blue and Gray guys existed and I was probably a lot happier then. It all fell through after FGCU which was the straw for me. I really don't enjoy the games anymore but am choosing not to quit watching and following but am channeling my frustrations towards correcting the problem. It's very clear to see what that is - obviously coach needs three or four more years until he can get some talent to coach. The loss that signaled to me that something is wrong was the Ohio Univ loss in 2010 even though the 2009 team greatly under performed in part to an insistence to play Dujuan Summers at PF The team was just coming off of an great OT BET Final match up loss vs West Virginia Then in the 1st Rd. NCAA's, Ohio treated Gtown as if they were a J.V. team Ohio's guards got whatever shot they wanted and got to the rim at will against Wright, Freeman and Clark
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 5, 2017 23:43:59 GMT -5
You don't know any of that to be true. I'm guessing you are right but I also care about this school and that's why I have to give some tough love which gets more tiresome with the people here who just don't get it. I can actually remember a time when coming to a message board never crossed my mind as I was content just watching games and thinking things were fine. I didn't know people like you and these other Blue and Gray guys existed and I was probably a lot happier then. It all fell through after FGCU which was the straw for me. I really don't enjoy the games anymore but am choosing not to quit watching and following but am channeling my frustrations towards correcting the problem. It's very clear to see what that is - obviously coach needs three or four more years until he can get some talent to coach. The loss that signaled to me that something is wrong was the Ohio Univ loss in 2010 even though the 2009 team greatly under performed in part to an insistence to play Dujuan Summers at PF The team was just coming off of an great OT BET Final match up loss vs West Virginia Then in the 1st Rd. NCAA's, Ohio treated Gtown as if they were a J.V. team Ohio's guards got whatever shot they wanted and got to the rim at will against Wright, Freeman and Clark I remember 08 against Davidson and thought that was just a fluke, then 09 not making tournament, then losing as 3 against OU as a 14, then losing to VCU as a 6 against 11, then losing to NC State as an 11 against our 3, then FGCU as a 15 to our 2. That was the one. I gave III the benefit of the doubt through all of that and then hit my breaking point. So to hear those on this board talk about giving it another 3 or 4 years is beyond ridiculous. At the rate we are going we will be DePaul with this coach by next season if not this year. Still need to play them.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 6, 2017 0:03:18 GMT -5
Not at all. When I say that I support the program and staff, I mean it. I believe there is although too much turnover in college sports and am glad Georgetown is not part of that problem. Stay the course and stick by your man. You do realize that by the year 2020 if every season between now and then is a losing one, the only people attending games will be those required to work at Verizon, the respective teams and fans of the opposition. That's not to mention the fact that we would arguably be the worst college basketball program in a major conference, a national laughingstock/afterthought and a burden of unimaginable proportions on the conference as a whole. But ... yeah ... let's stay on that course. To a hole of irrelevance so deep we might never get out of it just so we can beat our chests at how committed we were to it. All of those statements are just plain wrong. I do not think the program ever gets close to that point, but if it does, it will not be in some sort of death spiral. Tons of team would trade places with us at that point just to be in the Big East. Count me as frustrated but still proud and not the least bit worried...and if that scenario plays out, I am confident that I will feel the same way in March of 2020.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by This Just In on Jan 6, 2017 0:04:58 GMT -5
The loss that signaled to me that something is wrong was the Ohio Univ loss in 2010 even though the 2009 team greatly under performed in part to an insistence to play Dujuan Summers at PF The team was just coming off of an great OT BET Final match up loss vs West Virginia Then in the 1st Rd. NCAA's, Ohio treated Gtown as if they were a J.V. team Ohio's guards got whatever shot they wanted and got to the rim at will against Wright, Freeman and Clark I remember 08 against Davidson and thought that was just a fluke, then 09 not making tournament, then losing as 3 against OU as a 14, then losing to VCU as a 6 against 11, then losing to NC State as an 11 against our 3, then FGCU as a 15 to our 2. That was the one. I gave III the benefit of the doubt through all of that and then hit my breaking point. So to hear those on this board talk about giving it another 3 or 4 years is beyond ridiculous. At the rate we are going we will be DePaul with this coach by next season if not this year. Still need to play them. The Davidson game, I know people complained about the refs, but Hoyas hurt themselves that game. I believe the team had only 11 assts vs 20 to's, way too careless with the basketball that game Plus coming off of the 2007 Final Four, JTIII was beyond reproach..looking back that Davidson loss should have sent alarms off but when you have a coach who was coming of a Sweet 16 and Final Four Appearance in consecutive years you have to give him the benefit of a doubt Who would have thought back then that it would be over a decade before Georgetown ever saw another Sweet 16 let alone get a sniff at another Final 4?
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 6, 2017 0:21:07 GMT -5
You do realize that by the year 2020 if every season between now and then is a losing one, the only people attending games will be those required to work at Verizon, the respective teams and fans of the opposition. That's not to mention the fact that we would arguably be the worst college basketball program in a major conference, a national laughingstock/afterthought and a burden of unimaginable proportions on the conference as a whole. But ... yeah ... let's stay on that course. To a hole of irrelevance so deep we might never get out of it just so we can beat our chests at how committed we were to it. All of those statements are just plain wrong. I do not think the program ever gets close to that point, but if it does, it will not be in some sort of death spiral. Tons of team would trade places with us at that point just to be in the Big East. Count me as frustrated but still proud and not the least bit worried...and if that scenario plays out, I am confident that I will feel the same way in March of 2020. That's flat wrong. The teams that would trade with us would have to up there budget considerably to match ours and would probably still do that but would also look for a return on that investment. That's a lost concept here as we are concerned with that credo that DFW posted about coaching and student athletes (I think that was what it was about). My time on the SU board was not all that enlightening however someone did say there was never a school and sports program more at odds with itself than Georgetown and that resonated. I thought about that and agreed. We want to treat basketball like it's the crew team that's out there to develop student athletes and for the love of it. Yet we are sacrificing our spend in all athletic areas to fund this basketball team to compete with the major programs in the nation. Yet we don't want to hold it to another standard when we spend all that and it doesn't perform. In other words we want it both ways and that doesn't work. Circular and chasing our tail.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by This Just In on Jan 6, 2017 0:27:56 GMT -5
All of those statements are just plain wrong. I do not think the program ever gets close to that point, but if it does, it will not be in some sort of death spiral. Tons of team would trade places with us at that point just to be in the Big East. Count me as frustrated but still proud and not the least bit worried...and if that scenario plays out, I am confident that I will feel the same way in March of 2020. That's flat wrong. The teams that would trade with us would have to up there budget considerably to match ours and would probably still do that but would also look for a return on that investment. That's a lost concept here as we are concerned with that credo that DFW posted about coaching and student athletes (I think that was what it was about). My time on the SU board was not all that enlightening however someone did say there was never a school and sports program more at odds with itself than Georgetown and that resonated. I thought about that and agreed. We want to treat basketball like it's the crew team that's out there to develop student athletes and for the love of it. Yet we are sacrificing our spend in all athletic areas to fund this basketball team to compete with the major programs in the nation. Yet we don't want to hold it to another standard when we spend all that and it doesn't perform. In other words we want it both ways and that doesn't work. Circular and chasing our tail. It comes off as a Dog & Pony show. Spending money on facilities and etc. when in reality the product on court of wins and losses are irrelevant
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hoyajinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,365
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Post by hoyajinx on Jan 6, 2017 6:45:57 GMT -5
You do realize that by the year 2020 if every season between now and then is a losing one, the only people attending games will be those required to work at Verizon, the respective teams and fans of the opposition. That's not to mention the fact that we would arguably be the worst college basketball program in a major conference, a national laughingstock/afterthought and a burden of unimaginable proportions on the conference as a whole. But ... yeah ... let's stay on that course. To a hole of irrelevance so deep we might never get out of it just so we can beat our chests at how committed we were to it. All of those statements are just plain wrong. I do not think the program ever gets close to that point, but if it does, it will not be in some sort of death spiral. Tons of team would trade places with us at that point just to be in the Big East. Count me as frustrated but still proud and not the least bit worried...and if that scenario plays out, I am confident that I will feel the same way in March of 2020. You realize if that happens, we are essentially DePaul. I pretty sure there aren't "tons" of teams that would want to trade places with DePaul. And if having five losing seasons in a row for a once proud team like Georgetown isn't considered a "death spiral", then the term death spiral has no actual meaning in any context.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 6, 2017 6:58:29 GMT -5
See, the difference is that I truly believe Georgetown CAN have it both ways- it has done so in the past, and has succeeded in doing so as recently as 2015!!!
In trying to achieve that objective, you have to be willing to take risks. Here, I believe that the appropriate risk is staying the course and trusting your current staff. There are smart and rational reasons for doing so and I hope the school keeps that in mind.
Also, I think DePaul is one or two good Chicago recruits away from being very relevant at any given time. If in 2020, we found ourselves in the same position DePaul is in now, because the school chose to take my advice and stick with this staff, I would be in no respect freaking out, disinterested, depressed, etc. I would be PROUD to be a Hoya fan and would hope that the program could turn it around- but only by doing things the right way.
I WOULD be disinterested in a Georgetown program that sacrificed its values because of some external or self-imposed "win or else" attitude. Winning is an important aspiration for Georgetown basketball, but the prerequisite is and should remain doing things the right way. There are VERY few coaches the Hoya program can trust to do that, come heck or high water. We have one now- a guy who has achieved success that most coaches never taste. I say stick with him.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Jan 6, 2017 8:56:59 GMT -5
See, the difference is that I truly believe Georgetown CAN have it both ways- it has done so in the past, and has succeeded in doing so as recently as 2015!!! In trying to achieve that objective, you have to be willing to take risks. Here, I believe that the appropriate risk is staying the course and trusting your current staff. There are smart and rational reasons for doing so and I hope the school keeps that in mind. Also, I think DePaul is one or two good Chicago recruits away from being very relevant at any given time. If in 2020, we found ourselves in the same position DePaul is in now, because the school chose to take my advice and stick with this staff, I would be in no respect freaking out, disinterested, depressed, etc. I would be PROUD to be a Hoya fan and would hope that the program could turn it around- but only by doing things the right way. I WOULD be disinterested in a Georgetown program that sacrificed its values because of some external or self-imposed "win or else" attitude. Winning is an important aspiration for Georgetown basketball, but the prerequisite is and should remain doing things the right way. There are VERY few coaches the Hoya program can trust to do that, come heck or high water. We have one now- a guy who has achieved success that most coaches never taste. I say stick with him. I admire and envy your loyalty to the school, the program and the coach. However, your assumption seems to be that only this coach can "do things the right way." I think you go too far. I do not assume that only Georgetown and this coach do things the right way. I also do not believe that any fan should be unable to demand that this expensive program and significant symbol of the university not place as high an emphasis on producing a quality team and product as it does on doing things the right way. During my time at the university, while Big John emerged as a champion for social reform that made us proud, he never de-emphasized having a winning program. JT III should be judged on his job performance now, not 10 years ago. If you think that his performance as a coach merits retention until 2020, then so be it. But he should not be retained because of the assumption that only he can do things the right way.
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