the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on May 11, 2005 19:19:16 GMT -5
1)Please show me your basketball credentials and prove to me you know anything about the sport, let alone more than me. Until you produce that information then you’re no better of an expert than me. Right now what you’re clearly better at is getting into an argument with every other person on this site who has the nerve to disagree with your opinion. Fair enough? 2)If Bowman was as tough as you think he is he would get in the paint, take that beating and get those rebounds. His drop off in that category proves he still needs work in the area of toughness. He has to drive more, without turning it over, and take it to opponents. He has to do a lot of things. Over the years I have heard and read a lot of positive comments about Bowman from Hoya fans and those who followed him in high school. “Toughness” was never a word that came up before until you mentioned it. 3)You wrote that Bowman’s forcing the situation is proof of his toughness. Okay. But my point was that he doesn’t attack the basket enough, which translates to he doesn’t drive to the hoop enough, which means he isn’t forcing the situation at all. That may be a result of his trying to get comfortable with the Princeton offense and I can’t hold that against him. What I can hold against him is that he still comes up with too many missed shots when he does drive. He misses too many gimmes, layups or slams. And frankly he has too much athleticism and length to keep missing all those attempts. He lets a defender or contact with a defender throw him off to a point that he often does not finish. You can dismiss all you want watching games and all but the tape doesn’t lie. He needs to finish better. I and others brought up that point during the Kenner League games in which we don’t have the luxury of seeing a recording afterwards. It just stuck with us that he would not finish when he had the opportunity. I noticed that same problems again when I went to actual games this season and when I saw games live on TV. And what a shock when I got through rewatching those games again I was reminded of all those blown opportunities. This is something we have been saying about Bowman for years. I’m sorry you never got the memo. Just don’t act as if the throws it down like he is capable of. He’s playing against college kids and is not finishing. Think about what would happen if he went against pros on a regular basis at the next level. That is why he needs to improve. 4)I think my comments were Sweetney had a better low post game than Mourning. Certainly a better all around feel for how to play with his back to the basket, especially when it came to passing. I stand by that. That low post game is why this past season an out of shape, short, vertically challenged on jumping Sweetney who didn’t run the floor well most games to beat opponents down the court was able to have one of the best field goal percentages in the NBA (putbacks on teammates’ misses helped too). Mourning, on the offensive, end was never a true post player in terms of playing with his back to the basket. He never developed a go-to move. His foot work was good but never outstanding. His passing was lacking which was typical of most big men who played for JT. On and on. Anyone following or covering the Heat when Zo was the main guy there would tell you that during the post season that Mourning’s game would get a bit exposed because no matter how hard he played he could never give you the big baskets on a regular basis because MAN TO MAN defenses could curtail his scoring opportunities in ways most man to man defenses could not do to a big guy with a true low post game. We have gone through this already a few times. No need to bring it up again and again. It comes down to opinion. Frankly I can as easily argue that your insistence that Mourning had better post moves than Sweetney is an indication that you are blind, never saw either one play or simply don’t know a thing about basketball. We’re never going to agree on this issue obviously so let it go already. Pretty please. In terms of Bowman, his rebounds dropped off because of the type of offense we run this year and playing more 3 than at 4 like he did the year before. Plus, I don't think the guys were encouraged to take it to the rack as oppose to staying within the relm of the offense. People on the board were complaining about this with Jeff Green too. In Esh's last year, there was no offensive structure, so guys were just free-wheeling it, and hence, you saw Bowman drive to the basket more. Does Bowman have problems finishing, yes, but its not just him,and it is not as bad as you say it is. And it doesn't mean he lacks toughness. Toughness is not beating your chest,looking mean, and screaming everytime you get a rebound. Bowman just needs refinement of his skills and gaining more discipline on the court in terms of taking it to the rack and holding for a better shot. He has the physical tools to be a small-forward in the NBA. He just needs refinement. I'm not even going to go there with the Zo issue, because you are way off base in your assessments. I see that you have a very, very selective memory when it comes to Zo's play on the court. I think you are confusing Zo with PJ Brown because the Zo you described is not the one that played in Miami.
|
|
hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,212
|
Post by hoyarooter on May 12, 2005 14:50:46 GMT -5
p***ing contest! p***ing contest!
I predict MCI by a TKO in 11.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
|
Post by Cambridge on May 12, 2005 15:20:31 GMT -5
No, no this is over in less than a round...
|
|
Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
Posts: 10,355
|
Post by Boz on May 12, 2005 15:21:50 GMT -5
p***ing contest! p***ing contest! I predict MCI by a TKO in 11. I can only assume because of the asterisks, but I guess you mean pARKing contest? Like in The Brady Bunch? I predict MCI will knock the egg off the traffic cone when someone in the_way's camp yells out at the last second, "Boumtje-Boumtje's footwork SUCKS!"
|
|
SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
|
Post by SoCalHoya on May 12, 2005 15:53:55 GMT -5
I think the_way will have Alice the housekeeper in his corner waiting to scare off ghosts from the attic, but that MCI's voice will change after being hit in the nose with a football.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,744
|
Post by SFHoya99 on May 12, 2005 16:05:15 GMT -5
2)If Bowman was as tough as you think he is he would get in the paint, take that beating and get those rebounds. His drop off in that category proves he still needs work in the area of toughness. He has to drive more, without turning it over, and take it to opponents. He has to do a lot of things. Over the years I have heard and read a lot of positive comments about Bowman from Hoya fans and those who followed him in high school. “Toughness” was never a word that came up before until you mentioned it. 3)You wrote that Bowman’s forcing the situation is proof of his toughness. Okay. But my point was that he doesn’t attack the basket enough, which translates to he doesn’t drive to the hoop enough, which means he isn’t forcing the situation at all. That may be a result of his trying to get comfortable with the Princeton offense and I can’t hold that against him. What I can hold against him is that he still comes up with too many missed shots when he does drive. He misses too many gimmes, layups or slams. And frankly he has too much athleticism and length to keep missing all those attempts. He lets a defender or contact with a defender throw him off to a point that he often does not finish. You can dismiss all you want watching games and all but the tape doesn’t lie. He needs to finish better. I and others brought up that point during the Kenner League games in which we don’t have the luxury of seeing a recording afterwards. It just stuck with us that he would not finish when he had the opportunity. I noticed that same problems again when I went to actual games this season and when I saw games live on TV. And what a shock when I got through rewatching those games again I was reminded of all those blown opportunities. This is something we have been saying about Bowman for years. I’m sorry you never got the memo. Just don’t act as if the throws it down like he is capable of. He’s playing against college kids and is not finishing. Think about what would happen if he went against pros on a regular basis at the next level. That is why he needs to improve. Do I agree with the_way? Honor forces me to respond with the truth, but then honor forces me to commit suppuku for the sin of agreeing with the irrational one... Brandon's rebounds were down for a couple of reasons this year: a slower pace (less rebounds to get); more Hoya competition for boards (Jeff and Roy v Courtland). That's all. It's not because he got wimpier. Furthermore, we spent two freakin' years bitching that Brandon drove too much, and now he's a pansy because he's more in control? What do you people want? The guy does not need to get tougher. t couldn't hurt, but it isn't a weakness. FWIW, I agree with MCI on points 1 and 4 -- Sweetney had the best low post moves of any Hoya big man from Ewing on (never saw Shelton or any previous guys).
|
|
HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
|
Post by HoyaChris on May 12, 2005 17:09:35 GMT -5
Do I agree with the_way? Honor forces me to respond with the truth, but then honor forces me to commit suppuku for the sin of agreeing with the irrational one... Brandon's rebounds were down for a couple of reasons this year: a slower pace (less rebounds to get); more Hoya competition for boards (Jeff and Roy v Courtland). That's all. It's not because he got wimpier. Furthermore, we spent two freakin' years bitching that Brandon drove too much, and now he's a pansy because he's more in control? What do you people want? The guy does not need to get tougher. t couldn't hurt, but it isn't a weakness. FWIW, I agree with MCI on points 1 and 4 -- Sweetney had the best low post moves of any Hoya big man from Ewing on (never saw Shelton or any previous guys). I agree with the_way a little, SFHoya a bunch and MCI a lot. Where the_way is correct is noting that the structure of the offense took Brandon away from the basket which reduced his rebound opportunities. SFHoya's two points, fewer rebound opportunities and more Hoya competition, combined with where he was playing on the floor explain the decline in rebounds. Where MCI is absolutely correct is that Brandon does need to finish better. I have many of the same tapes that MCI does and agree that there are 1-2 times a game where he gets to the rim with an apparent advantage and does not convert. I don't know if this is toughness or some flaw in fundamentals, but it is undeniable. Brandon has made major strides in his three years as a Hoya. I believe that any issues that he has can be overcome and that he will play in the League. But probably not next year. On the Sweetney issue, there is no question that he had the best low post moves of any Hoya player in the Thompson era. Craig Shelton was more athletic and had an awesome 10 foot turnaround, but Sweetney was more versatile.
|
|
SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
|
Post by SaxaCD on May 12, 2005 17:22:09 GMT -5
Not necessarily a glaring weakness in college, but it would be in the pros. Good luck whatever decision he makes, though!
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,744
|
Post by SFHoya99 on May 12, 2005 18:21:44 GMT -5
I agree with the_way a little, SFHoya a bunch and MCI a lot. Where the_way is correct is noting that the structure of the offense took Brandon away from the basket which reduced his rebound opportunities. SFHoya's two points, fewer rebound opportunities and more Hoya competition, combined with where he was playing on the floor explain the decline in rebounds. Where MCI is absolutely correct is that Brandon does need to finish better. I have many of the same tapes that MCI does and agree that there are 1-2 times a game where he gets to the rim with an apparent advantage and does not convert. I don't know if this is toughness or some flaw in fundamentals, but it is undeniable. Brandon has made major strides in his three years as a Hoya. I believe that any issues that he has can be overcome and that he will play in the League. But probably not next year. On the Sweetney issue, there is no question that he had the best low post moves of any Hoya player in the Thompson era. Craig Shelton was more athletic and had an awesome 10 foot turnaround, but Sweetney was more versatile. Chris, I admit that I've only watched most of Brandon's games once, and usually over quite a few frothy beverages. But still, is this a case of counting the misses and not the makes? I mean, what's the context? I know of zero players who finish every time at the hoop. I admit he's not a beast like Stoudemire, but I attribute that to size and strength, not a character trait.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on May 12, 2005 18:38:55 GMT -5
Chris, I admit that I've only watched most of Brandon's games once, and usually over quite a few frothy beverages. But still, is this a case of counting the misses and not the makes? I mean, what's the context? I know of zero players who finish every time at the hoop. I admit he's not a beast like Stoudemire, but I attribute that to size and strength, not a character trait. He's often flinching from contact or even the thought of contact when a defender is there to challenge him at the hoop...even if the defender is not as tall. That's a major flaw, one of the last flaws he will have to overcome if he wants to make millions in the NBA. And then there are the times no one is there to stop him from throwing it down and he simply blows a dunk. Not since Jahidi have we had a guy blow as many dunks. Now Jahidi's problem were his hands. Bowman has good hands and shouldn't have those difficulties which suggests to me that he isn't concentrating in some instances. That too is easily correctable. But I'm not going to ignore the problem as if it didn't exist. That ain't my way...no pun intended.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on May 12, 2005 18:40:08 GMT -5
I can only assume because of the asterisks, but I guess you mean pARKing contest? Like in The Brady Bunch? I predict MCI will knock the egg off the traffic cone when someone in the_way's camp yells out at the last second, "Boumtje-Boumtje's footwork SUCKS!" Gotta admit that's funny. ;D
|
|
|
Post by BeantownHoya on May 13, 2005 9:48:35 GMT -5
This is a small blurb from Katz's latest article about early entrants.
A host of other underclassmen have declared and might end up in the second round or not drafted at all. In the coming weeks, that's the kind of information a number of early-entry players need to weigh – players such as Georgetown's Brandon Bowman, Illinois' Dee Brown, Notre Dame's Torin Francis, George Washington's Pops Mensah-Bonsu, Stanford's Chris Hernandez, Saint Joseph's Dwayne Jones, Missouri's Linas Kleiza, Pittsburgh's Carl Krauser, Texas signee C.J. Miles, unsigned high schooler Brandon Rush, West Virginia's Kevin Pittsnogle, Florida's Anthony Roberson and Matt Walsh, Wake Forest's Eric Williams, Cincinnati's James White, Florida State's Von Wafer and San Diego State's Marcus Slaughter.
First of all I was suprised to see him even mentioned as I personally dont think he will be drafted. But I was more suprised (and I realize Katz is just throwing names out there) that he is being mentioned as a possibility to remain in the draft. I , maybe foolishly, assumed this was a "test the waters" draft entry and there would be no way he would go.
What is the date that players must declare their draft intentions?
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on May 13, 2005 10:21:10 GMT -5
He's often flinching from contact or even the thought of contact when a defender is there to challenge him at the hoop...even if the defender is not as tall. That's a major flaw, one of the last flaws he will have to overcome if he wants to make millions in the NBA. And then there are the times no one is there to stop him from throwing it down and he simply blows a dunk. Not since Jahidi have we had a guy blow as many dunks. Now Jahidi's problem were his hands. Bowman has good hands and shouldn't have those difficulties which suggests to me that he isn't concentrating in some instances. That too is easily correctable. But I'm not going to ignore the problem as if it didn't exist. That ain't my way...no pun intended. Its funny you call yourself MCIGuy, because Alonzo Mourning played in the Capital Center. Mike Sweetney, God bless him, was a solid player for GU. But to say he was the best low-post player in GU since Ewing and better than Mourning is beyond comprehension. And then to hear others co-signing this statment is incredible. You act like Mike Sweetney had the moves of Kevin McHale in the low-post. How old are you?? Mike Sweetney has to be your favorite player for you to say he was such a great low-post player. To me if he were that great of a low-post player compared to other big men Hoyas, you would see that translate in the pros, as well as college. Like it did for Mourning and Ewing. But it hasn't been the case. I don't want to hear about playing time. When Sweetney is on the court, and he started games this year, he has had success. However, I don't see a vast array of low-post moves.I'm sorry, but Ewing and Mourning were better with there back to the basket than Sweetney. I'm glad, as a Hoya fan, I have actually seen these players play and not take your accounts of their game. Whats next, MCI guy, another assessment of yours where you feel Joseph Toumou was a "purer" point-guard than Allen Iverson.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
|
Post by Cambridge on May 13, 2005 10:26:13 GMT -5
Mike Sweetney did have more post moves than Mourning...how else do you explain his overwhelming success in the Big East? He didn't have the body...nor the athleticism...or even the intensity of Mourning...so how the hell did he put up more numbers, consistently than Zo if it wasn't for his unparalleled arsenal of low post moves? That's all Sweetney has...soft hands and incredible instinct for low post play.
I love Zo. He is my second favorite Hoya of all time. Iverson is #1. But, to say that he was as polished offensively as Sweetney is just plain silly.
Oh and you're "how old are you?" "at least I saw these games" schtick is old and tired. Please, get off your high horse you donkey.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on May 13, 2005 10:44:12 GMT -5
Mike Sweetney did have more post moves than Mourning...how else do you explain his overwhelming success in the Big East? He didn't have the body...nor the athleticism...or even the intensity of Mourning...so how the hell did he put up more numbers, consistently than Zo if it wasn't for his unparalleled arsenal of low post moves? That's all Sweetney has...soft hands and incredible instinct for low post play. I love Zo. He is my second favorite Hoya of all time. Iverson is #1. But, to say that he was as polished offensively as Sweetney is just plain silly. Oh and you're "how old are you?" "at least I saw these games" schtick is old and tired. Please, get off your high horse you donkey. Its amazing how so many people think alike. They don't dare to form their own thoughts. The shared and popular viewpoint tells them what they are going to say. So, who is the real donkey?? Anyway, Zo was more offensively polished than Sweetney. Not only did he have great low-post moves, he had a good midrange jump shot, he also played defense, blocked shots, and he was a leader. The last 4 qualities I mentioned Sweetney lacked. Sweetney was a good player at GU, and looks like he will be a solid pro in the NBA. Mourning was a great player at GU, and a franchise player in the NBA.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
|
Post by Cambridge on May 13, 2005 11:06:08 GMT -5
We are only talking about LOW POST OFFENSE...not defense, not intensity not anything else. I made that very clear. Obviously Zo was the better overall player. We're not discussing that.
And I have shown you stat after stat, and engaged you in this discussion before...Have you forgotten the discussion we had about this during the middle of the season?
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on May 13, 2005 11:16:15 GMT -5
We are only talking about LOW POST OFFENSE...not defense, not intensity not anything else. I made that very clear. Obviously Zo was the better overall player. We're not discussing that. And I have shown you stat after stat, and engaged you in this discussion before...Have you forgotten the discussion we had about this during the middle of the season? No, I have not forgotten my friend. I have seen both players play during their careers at GU. In terms of low-post offense, Mourning is better. Not only in college, but also in the NBA. Did you see what Mourning did last night against the Wizards, transplanted kidney and all.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
|
Post by Cambridge on May 13, 2005 11:48:40 GMT -5
Again, we are talking about low post offense at Georgetown...not the NBA not anywhere else.
|
|
YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
|
Post by YB on May 13, 2005 11:59:44 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that we think and hope BB will come back, for our sakes and his. I would love to see him come back stronger than ever, lead us deep in the tourney and vault his draft standing up accordingly!
As for Zo, you have to respect the guy. I mean, on an ailing kidney he does look great, even if I do fear for his health. You can't help but think that IF he were in the military he'd be one heck of a soldier.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on May 13, 2005 13:24:33 GMT -5
Its funny you call yourself MCIGuy, because Alonzo Mourning played in the Capital Center.
|
|