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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 5, 2016 23:30:26 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see if we go to a havoc style defense next year. Maybe pry an old or current assistant away from Shaka. We are not getting any bigger and some more conditioning with Govan and Derrickson makes us not unlike some of VCU's teams in the past. We do not have a single solid defensive guy on our team. You can't play "havoc" defense when you can't play defense.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 6, 2016 1:01:55 GMT -5
Anybody else miss Nate "vanilla gorilla" Lubick!!! maybe all the haters were wrong after all. Yes... I really miss Nate Lubick passing up wide open shots so that his teammates may take a contested shot. Or playing 4 vs 5 offense while Nate was on the floor. Nate's contribution to Hoya basketball: perimeter fly-bys. I started counting them today and stopped.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 6, 2016 8:15:17 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see if we go to a havoc style defense next year. Maybe pry an old or current assistant away from Shaka. We are not getting any bigger and some more conditioning with Govan and Derrickson makes us not unlike some of VCU's teams in the past. We do not have a single solid defensive guy on our team. You can't play "havoc" defense when you can't play defense. No argument from me, but something drastic has to change. This completes the 3rd year in a row of our fouling machine defense. For the record, I just checked Ken Pom and we are now 347th in luck factor. That is not too surprising because it means we've lost too many close games for our efficiency. To me, it again goes back to just dumb mistakes and unnecessary fouls. If we can literally just foul less, we could be a much better team. We are STILL 70 in Ken Pom.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 6, 2016 8:29:37 GMT -5
We do not have a single solid defensive guy on our team. You can't play "havoc" defense when you can't play defense. No argument from me, but something drastic has to change. This completes the 3rd year in a row of our fouling machine defense. For the record, I just checked Ken Pom and we are now 347th in luck factor. That is not too surprising because it means we've lost too many close games for our efficiency. To me, it again goes back to just dumb mistakes and unnecessary fouls. If we can literally just foul less, we could be a much better team. We are STILL 70 in Ken Pom. I think it's important to note that we haven't fouled in the same "way" each of those years. I think we failed to adjust properly to the rules for a time; this year, we just flat out stink at defense. Our KenPom rating is clearly overstated this year. I say that because so many of our close losses came in games in which we trailed basically the entire game by (at times) quite significant amounts and we made somewhat furious comebacks only because teams started to play more passive due to the score and no longer took full advantage of our horrific defense. We did have some truly close losses where the score was tight throughout (Maryland, Duke, and first Villanova come quickly to mind), but those were balanced out by some close games throughout that we actually won. In any event, yes, something needs to change on defense. Our communication needs to be much better, and we need improved quickness.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 6, 2016 8:50:59 GMT -5
No argument from me, but something drastic has to change. This completes the 3rd year in a row of our fouling machine defense. For the record, I just checked Ken Pom and we are now 347th in luck factor. That is not too surprising because it means we've lost too many close games for our efficiency. To me, it again goes back to just dumb mistakes and unnecessary fouls. If we can literally just foul less, we could be a much better team. We are STILL 70 in Ken Pom. I think it's important to note that we haven't fouled in the same "way" each of those years. I think we failed to adjust properly to the rules for a time; this year, we just flat out stink at defense. Our KenPom rating is clearly overstated this year. I say that because so many of our close losses came in games in which we trailed basically the entire game by (at times) quite significant amounts and we made somewhat furious comebacks only because teams started to play more passive due to the score and no longer took full advantage of our horrific defense. We did have some truly close losses where the score was tight throughout (Maryland, Duke, and first Villanova come quickly to mind), but those were balanced out by some close games throughout that we actually won. In any event, yes, something needs to change on defense. Our communication needs to be much better, and we need improved quickness. Good point. Too many of the "comebacks" occurred very late after the opposing team enjoyed a substantial lead. There is a serious problem with this team and the number of "near misses" is a mirage that should not disguise the nature of the problem on defense. Also for those clamoring for the flavor of the month pg as the next savior, it is equally important to note that as Peak progressed steadily there was at least a glimmer of hope that we have a "big" pg on the team for next year--though another is needed. However, over the past month the Hoyas have gotten minimal production in all phases of the game from the post position. Not a knock on Govan, but the kid is simply not ready for the minutes he has had to play.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 6, 2016 8:59:20 GMT -5
No argument from me, but something drastic has to change. This completes the 3rd year in a row of our fouling machine defense. For the record, I just checked Ken Pom and we are now 347th in luck factor. That is not too surprising because it means we've lost too many close games for our efficiency. To me, it again goes back to just dumb mistakes and unnecessary fouls. If we can literally just foul less, we could be a much better team. We are STILL 70 in Ken Pom. I think it's important to note that we haven't fouled in the same "way" each of those years. I think we failed to adjust properly to the rules for a time; this year, we just flat out stink at defense. Our KenPom rating is clearly overstated this year. I say that because so many of our close losses came in games in which we trailed basically the entire game by (at times) quite significant amounts and we made somewhat furious comebacks only because teams started to play more passive due to the score and no longer took full advantage of our horrific defense. We did have some truly close losses where the score was tight throughout (Maryland, Duke, and first Villanova come quickly to mind), but those were balanced out by some close games throughout that we actually won. In any event, yes, something needs to change on defense. Our communication needs to be much better, and we need improved quickness. Coming back that way is still coming back. The same principles hold. You could make the case that we were down early because other teams, like Marquette, Providence, Butler, Creighton, shot too well for a while and then cooled off expectedly. That was different for Villanova because they actually are 14 points better than us. But, yes, I concede it was different this year because we stunk more. Doesn't mean it isn't a 3 year problem. It has been.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Mar 6, 2016 14:02:27 GMT -5
Everyone seems to believe LJ improved greatly over the course of the year. Is it against the tenor of this board to say that JT3 and his staff coached him up?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 6, 2016 14:17:34 GMT -5
Everyone seems to believe LJ improved greatly over the course of the year. Is it against the tenor of this board to say that JT3 and his staff coached him up? The coaches were with him shootin in the gym?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 15:38:34 GMT -5
I think it's important to note that we haven't fouled in the same "way" each of those years. I think we failed to adjust properly to the rules for a time; this year, we just flat out stink at defense. Our KenPom rating is clearly overstated this year. I say that because so many of our close losses came in games in which we trailed basically the entire game by (at times) quite significant amounts and we made somewhat furious comebacks only because teams started to play more passive due to the score and no longer took full advantage of our horrific defense. We did have some truly close losses where the score was tight throughout (Maryland, Duke, and first Villanova come quickly to mind), but those were balanced out by some close games throughout that we actually won. In any event, yes, something needs to change on defense. Our communication needs to be much better, and we need improved quickness. Good point. Too many of the "comebacks" occurred very late after the opposing team enjoyed a substantial lead. There is a serious problem with this team and the number of "near misses" is a mirage that should not disguise the nature of the problem on defense. Also for those clamoring for the flavor of the month pg as the next savior, it is equally important to note that as Peak progressed steadily there was at least a glimmer of hope that we have a "big" pg on the team for next year--though another is needed. However, over the past month the Hoyas have gotten minimal production in all phases of the game from the post position. Not a knock on Govan, but the kid is simply not ready for the minutes he has had to play. No offense but this is the kind of viewpoint I can't stand. Govan has some huge games against BE competition that hinted at what he is very capable of. It may have been unreasonable so far as expecting him to be dominant every game or even once a week, but I would argue that a player of his caliber in another system/another team would be building off of those big showings by displaying steady improvement and development as the year went on. Instead we get a guy who is often invisible on the court particularly in the final month of the season, a time in which he should have been coming into his own. Does he deserve to take some blame for that? Of course. But much blame also goes to a gameplan that seems okay to not get him involved at the beginning or at least get him going somewhere in the first half after he gets off to a slow start. That falls on the coaches who don't really run anything for him and the teammates who don't know how and when to get him the ball (which can also be attributed to subpar coaching). If Govan was, as you say, not ready for the minutes then I'm going to point a finger at a coach whose job was to get him ready. And this is a coach who, without being prompted, gushed during the summer how fantastic Govan was and how he was going to be just as good as any other freshman big in the country.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 6, 2016 15:41:49 GMT -5
I think Govan has been quite good this year. I think a major problem we will have with any post presence is our team's inability to make an entry pass. When somebody like Govan is doubled or tripled and somebody like Tre Campbell tries to pass it in to him anyway, it doesn't set him up for success, either.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 15:41:51 GMT -5
Everyone seems to believe LJ improved greatly over the course of the year. Is it against the tenor of this board to say that JT3 and his staff coached him up? I'm sure they played a big part in his improvement of his shooting mechanics from deep. That's something III and his staff are always good at. That and teaching big men to use the hook shot and pass from the top of the key. But as for ballhandling, dribbling, driving and finishing so far as Peak is concerned? I'm gonna guess that was Peak's doing which in part was the result of him simply getting more comfortable.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 15:44:16 GMT -5
I think Govan has been quite good this year. I think a major problem we will have with any post presence is our team's inability to make an entry pass. When somebody like Govan is doubled or tripled and somebody like Tre Campbell tries to pass it in to him anyway, it doesn't set him up for success, either. True but I think DSR, Copeland and Peak are good enough passers to get the ball to Govan safely. White is the best of all of them but he was not healthy. Still there were enough capable guys on the roster to get Govan the rock and exploit his height and skill if that was really in the gameplan IMO.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 6, 2016 16:19:41 GMT -5
Good point. Too many of the "comebacks" occurred very late after the opposing team enjoyed a substantial lead. There is a serious problem with this team and the number of "near misses" is a mirage that should not disguise the nature of the problem on defense. Also for those clamoring for the flavor of the month pg as the next savior, it is equally important to note that as Peak progressed steadily there was at least a glimmer of hope that we have a "big" pg on the team for next year--though another is needed. However, over the past month the Hoyas have gotten minimal production in all phases of the game from the post position. Not a knock on Govan, but the kid is simply not ready for the minutes he has had to play. No offense but this is the kind of viewpoint I can't stand. Govan has some huge games against BE competition that hinted at what he is very capable of. It may have been unreasonable so far as expecting him to be dominant every game or even once a week, but I would argue that a player of his caliber in another system/another team would be building off of those big showings by displaying steady improvement and development as the year went on. Instead we get a guy who is often invisible on the court particularly in the final month of the season, a time in which he should have been coming into his own. Does he deserve to take some blame for that? Of course. But much blame also goes to a gameplan that seems okay to not get him involved at the beginning or at least get him going somewhere in the first half after he gets off to a slow start. That falls on the coaches who don't really run anything for him and the teammates who don't know how and when to get him the ball (which can also be attributed to subpar coaching). If Govan was, as you say, not ready for the minutes then I'm going to point a finger at a coach whose job was to get him ready. And this is a coach who, without being prompted, gushed during the summer how fantastic Govan was and how he was going to be just as good as any other freshman big in the country. You do realize he's playing outside of his role right? Maybe try pointing your finger at our injured starting C.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 6, 2016 16:45:47 GMT -5
Good point. Too many of the "comebacks" occurred very late after the opposing team enjoyed a substantial lead. There is a serious problem with this team and the number of "near misses" is a mirage that should not disguise the nature of the problem on defense. Also for those clamoring for the flavor of the month pg as the next savior, it is equally important to note that as Peak progressed steadily there was at least a glimmer of hope that we have a "big" pg on the team for next year--though another is needed. However, over the past month the Hoyas have gotten minimal production in all phases of the game from the post position. Not a knock on Govan, but the kid is simply not ready for the minutes he has had to play. No offense but this is the kind of viewpoint I can't stand. Govan has some huge games against BE competition that hinted at what he is very capable of. It may have been unreasonable so far as expecting him to be dominant every game or even once a week, but I would argue that a player of his caliber in another system/another team would be building off of those big showings by displaying steady improvement and development as the year went on. Instead we get a guy who is often invisible on the court particularly in the final month of the season, a time in which he should have been coming into his own. Does he deserve to take some blame for that? Of course. But much blame also goes to a gameplan that seems okay to not get him involved at the beginning or at least get him going somewhere in the first half after he gets off to a slow start. That falls on the coaches who don't really run anything for him and the teammates who don't know how and when to get him the ball (which can also be attributed to subpar coaching). If Govan was, as you say, not ready for the minutes then I'm going to point a finger at a coach whose job was to get him ready. And this is a coach who, without being prompted, gushed during the summer how fantastic Govan was and how he was going to be just as good as any other freshman big in the country. Nice to see you back. Well I am not certain you disagreed with my point that he is not ready to be the only and primary post on this team as much as you attributed this to a failure of the coaches and game plan. Perhaps that is true and I won't pretend to know what they have tried or failed to try with him in practice or game plans. He has shown what he can do in some games, but he has also been tentative with his passes and at time made very lazy passes. He has become tentative in taking the shot. His talent is undeniable but that does not mean he is ready for the role he was forced to assume. However, I believe that his shortcomings are more pronounced on the defensive side of the court than offense. He remains a work in progress and still needs to develop the quickness to,be able to rotate over in coverage against penetrating guards. So while I won't engage on the issue of whether the coaches could have done more--I think that everyone associated with this team this year has failed. -- I continue to believe that the production at the post this season has disappeared over the past 8-9 games and this has been at least as damaging as any shortcomings in guard play.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 6, 2016 16:49:58 GMT -5
I think Govan has been quite good this year. I think a major problem we will have with any post presence is our team's inability to make an entry pass. When somebody like Govan is doubled or tripled and somebody like Tre Campbell tries to pass it in to him anyway, it doesn't set him up for success, either. True but I think DSR, Copeland and Peak are good enough passers to get the ball to Govan safely. White is the best of all of them but he was not healthy. Still there were enough capable guys on the roster to get Govan the rock and exploit his height and skill if that was really in the gameplan IMO. I think DSR is the only competent post passer within the typical rotation. Isaac is a terrible post passer. LJ isn't as bad but certainly isn't good. I do think we tried to feed the post. He got the ball a fair amount down there, and there were other times where the wing clearly was trying but Jesse couldn't maintain position. He also didn't score down there at a particularly high percentage against competent competition. I'm not sure I follow the "he didn't improve" argument. I really don't think it typically works that way for most freshmen. They come in unaccustomed to the skill, size, strength and speed of the college game. They're either ready for it on day 1, or more likely, parts of their game are ready for it, and it's a question of whether they can exploit those parts and not have the others be exploited. Rarely do you see much improvement in-season from frosh. I think he absolutely improved his confidence with shooting the outside shot as the year went on. He had always made them at lower levels, seemed hesitant at first, and then shot with confidence. He tended to lose that confidence if the first shot or two didn't go in for a given game, but again, I think that's natural for a frosh. It's still natural for Reggie even now! As far as post play goes, he didn't appear to have a great finesse shot to go to in situations where he couldn't use his "speed" to get around a guy. In other words, he seemed to possess "power" and "size" type post moves, which I'm sure worked for him previously, but those sorts of moves simply didn't work here, since he wasn't always stronger than his matchup. Again, tough to work on that in-season. That said, he's too good a shooter to not be able to develop the sorts of moves that will be effective for him. And, of course, he will get stronger. Finally, the other thing that happens to frosh is that it takes the opposition a while to fully figure out and game plan for their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Ball security was clearly a weakness (and one it would take scouts some time to figure out) but teams began to really exploit it as the year went on. You could sense that he had lessened confidence whenever he had the ball in his hands and the game moved around him. He was perfectly fine when he had just one thing to do with the ball -- shoot from the top of the key; lay in a good pass to the low block; etc. -- but anytime he had to expose the ball (whether at the top of the key or when making a move in the post), he was hesitant and less effective. Again, that will come with time. Honestly, I don't blame either him or the staff. I thought he had a perfectly fine year. I wish he were a bit better on D, but that hopefully comes too.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 17:11:43 GMT -5
No offense but this is the kind of viewpoint I can't stand. Govan has some huge games against BE competition that hinted at what he is very capable of. It may have been unreasonable so far as expecting him to be dominant every game or even once a week, but I would argue that a player of his caliber in another system/another team would be building off of those big showings by displaying steady improvement and development as the year went on. Instead we get a guy who is often invisible on the court particularly in the final month of the season, a time in which he should have been coming into his own. Does he deserve to take some blame for that? Of course. But much blame also goes to a gameplan that seems okay to not get him involved at the beginning or at least get him going somewhere in the first half after he gets off to a slow start. That falls on the coaches who don't really run anything for him and the teammates who don't know how and when to get him the ball (which can also be attributed to subpar coaching). If Govan was, as you say, not ready for the minutes then I'm going to point a finger at a coach whose job was to get him ready. And this is a coach who, without being prompted, gushed during the summer how fantastic Govan was and how he was going to be just as good as any other freshman big in the country. You do realize he's playing outside of his role right? Maybe try pointing your finger at our injured starting C. Heck, no. As they say in football when someone gets injured : next up. Besides none of us expected Hayes to be the starting center anyway coming into this season. Govan was expected to be the guy at the five.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 17:17:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure I follow the "he didn't improve" argument. I really don't think it typically works that way for most freshmen. They come in unaccustomed to the skill, size, strength and speed of the college game. They're either ready for it on day 1, or more likely, parts of their game are ready for it, and it's a question of whether they can exploit those parts and not have the others be exploited. Rarely do you see much improvement in-season from frosh. I think he absolutely improved his confidence with shooting the outside shot as the year went on. He had always made them at lower levels, seemed hesitant at first, and then shot with confidence. He tended to lose that confidence if the first shot or two didn't go in for a given game, but again, I think that's natural for a frosh. In all my years of watching college bball talented frosh used to figure out college defenses as the year went on, not the other way around. At least that is how I see it. Both Govan and Derrickson however have too often been of little consequence on the court in far too many games over the past five weeks.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 6, 2016 17:57:21 GMT -5
You do realize he's playing outside of his role right? Maybe try pointing your finger at our injured starting C. Heck, no. As they say in football when someone gets injured : next up. Besides none of us expected Hayes to be the starting center anyway coming into this season. Govan was expected to be the guy at the five. But he wasn't the guy at the 5, that's my point. Agree to disagree with your seriously faulty standards
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 6, 2016 18:27:25 GMT -5
I'm not sure I follow the "he didn't improve" argument. I really don't think it typically works that way for most freshmen. They come in unaccustomed to the skill, size, strength and speed of the college game. They're either ready for it on day 1, or more likely, parts of their game are ready for it, and it's a question of whether they can exploit those parts and not have the others be exploited. Rarely do you see much improvement in-season from frosh. I think he absolutely improved his confidence with shooting the outside shot as the year went on. He had always made them at lower levels, seemed hesitant at first, and then shot with confidence. He tended to lose that confidence if the first shot or two didn't go in for a given game, but again, I think that's natural for a frosh. In all my years of watching college bball talented frosh used to figure out college defenses as the year went on, not the other way around. At least that is how I see it. Both Govan and Derrickson however have too often been of little consequence on the court in far too many games over the past five weeks. They have certainly not been of much consequence. No argument from me. I think the oft-mentioned "freshmen wall" is really other teams figuring out a player. So I think regression from frosh happens frequently.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 6, 2016 20:21:52 GMT -5
Heck, no. As they say in football when someone gets injured : next up. Besides none of us expected Hayes to be the starting center anyway coming into this season. Govan was expected to be the guy at the five. But he wasn't the guy at the 5, that's my point. Agree to disagree with your seriously faulty standards What Govan lacks in experience to Hayes he more than makes up for in ability. You act as if Hayes was some four year starter and annual All American. Granted he was having a fantastic year in his final season and was someone who was making an impact. But his numbers weren't exactly All Big East worthy. Govan should have been more than capable of coming within 70% of his contributions when he got that starting gig. Hell, III himself told the CBS writer who covered Gtown in the pre-season that Govan could average at least 10 points a game as starter. Then again III may have been wrong which wouldn't be the first time. I suppose the point I'm making is that people on this board need to chill with this notion that Hayes couldn't be replaced. That would ignore the fact that some of the same folks were begging for Hayes to be taken out of the starting lineup in January when he struggled early on in the BE season. But that's par for the course on this site. You guys go from putting players on a pedestal to dismissing them as bums....in a span of a week in some cases.
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