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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 23, 2016 8:41:16 GMT -5
"Suffered Tremendously": - NCAA Seeds: 4, 2, 3, 6, 3, 2, 2, 7 - Several top 25 and top 10 rankings - KenPom rankings of: 45, 13, 4, 8, 34, 16, 36, 16, 12, 65, 25, 74 (subject to change) - Winner of the Big East regular season title (twice) - Made Big East Tournament championship game (three times) - Winner of the Big East tournament (once) - 4 of 8 years got past the first round - 2 Sweet 16's - 1 Final Four Obviously, given our seeding, we "should" have more Sweet 16's. And that makes us, as fans, unhappy. But, the record above is superior to that of most Division I teams, and squarely puts us among the best Division I teams since JT3 has taken the helm. It might not be what we want, especially in March, but to call it suffering is silly. So does that merit $3M? No. Is that really a record that merits $3M? Btw, why didn't you include his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament? It's becoming harder to hide the fact that he is not getting there regularly. Does that merit $3M? You may ask what are my expectations. I'll answer something that merits $3M, which I think is a pretty good record, Top 15 yearly, and reaching the NCAAs 4 out of 5 years (because we'll have that rebuilding year after a championship). That merits $3M. Of the titles awarded in the NBE, Villanova has won 3 and Providence 1. We haven't reached the championship game. Until when do we hide in the past and not face what is happening in the present to be able to be competing for titles in the future? If we're stuck with the Thompsons, then JT3 has to change his approach to offense, defense and recruiting. He is responsible for his assistant coaches, for his recruits and for the brand. What programs are in the top 15 yearly? Seriously, that's your expectation? Think about that. You'd be disappointed in the program if we were ranked in the top 15 for two straight years (getting a 1-4 seed) and then the next year we're a top 25 team (getting a 6 seed)? If that would be disappointing to you, well, you're going to be disappointed an awful lot! And we can go ahead and include "his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament." That's my main measuring stick, by the way. It's 8 out of 12 (that's conceding this year and including his first year). That's pretty damned good! I believe there's only 2 teams in the ACC with more in that time span. (I think probably only Nova and X have more in ours.) Obviously, things don't look as good if you look at the last three years (including this one). I can't stop anyone from caring about the ROI thing, but I still think it's silly. There's a reason that during games they show standings in the conference, and the Top 25, and things like that on the broadcast. They don't then normalize those numbers accounting for coaching salary. All that matters, ultimately, is the performance on the court. Ours this year stinks. More to the point, basically no one is worth $3M if your expectations are as you state them. Here are the guys making between $2.5M and $3.5M (of those that made the NCAAT tournament last year): Scott Drew, Travis Ford, Rick Barnes, Steve Alford, Lon Kruger, Jay Wright, III, Bo Ryan, Crean, Huggins, Matta, Sean Miller. Would any of them have met your stated expectations? Maybe one or two? Barnes has since been canned, which is one name in your favor. But I don't believe anyone else has been. Unless your last name starts with a K, or you "compensate" players in various ways to come to your school located in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, basically no one is worth that much!
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hoyajinx
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Post by hoyajinx on Feb 23, 2016 9:14:23 GMT -5
We were proactive and thinking outside-the-box in hiring Pops and it paid off handsomely. We have been reactive and cautious ever since and have suffered tremendously. "Suffered Tremendously": - NCAA Seeds: 4, 2, 3, 6, 3, 2, 2, 7 - Several top 25 and top 10 rankings - KenPom rankings of: 45, 13, 4, 8, 34, 16, 36, 16, 12, 65, 25, 74 (subject to change) - Winner of the Big East regular season title (twice) - Made Big East Tournament championship game (three times) - Winner of the Big East tournament (once) - 4 of 8 years got past the first round - 2 Sweet 16's - 1 Final Four Obviously, given our seeding, we "should" have more Sweet 16's. And that makes us, as fans, unhappy. But, the record above is superior to that of most Division I teams, and squarely puts us among the best Division I teams since JT3 has taken the helm. It might not be what we want, especially in March, but to call it suffering is silly. I think fans are having trouble with the fact (aside from the post-season flops) that the success is heavily front-loaded. Going on KenPom alone, two of the last three years have been the worst in JTIII's tenure, and the third is in the bottom half. We have been ranked in the top 25 exactly three weeks total over the course of the last three years. That's not overly impressive. It's not difficult to understand why people believe that the game has "evolved" and the Hoyas haven't exactly kept pace.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 23, 2016 9:26:18 GMT -5
Agree with jinx. We aren't passing the eye test for improvement either (quite the opposite the past few years). We are going to miss the tourney in 2 of the last three years when the tourney is very watered down with a field of 68. All is very unacceptable. I'll always point out that we are one Jeff Green travel call against Vandy from that final four and we are closing in on a decade of no second weekend appearances in the tourney.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 23, 2016 10:14:14 GMT -5
Agree with jinx. We aren't passing the eye test for improvement either (quite the opposite the past few years). We are going to miss the tourney in 2 of the last three years when the tourney is very watered down with a field of 68. All is very unacceptable. I'll always point out that we are one Jeff Green travel call against Vandy from that final four and we are closing in on a decade of no second weekend appearances in the tourney. One out of three isn't good, and it makes next year critical (at least for me). You're right on Green and the travel, but I think you'd find that virtually every team that makes it to a Final Four has something similar along the way. And you can play the same game the other way: We're one absurd Corey Brewer shot (and questionable call) from likely going to at least an Elite Eight in 2006. And had the ball down two under a minute against NC State with a S16 bid on the line. Neither is as stark as the Green call (which was clearly a win or lose issue), but so many games are one possession games where any number of individual plays change the outcome. Sadly....our other NCAAT losses really don't fit that bill!
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Feb 23, 2016 10:33:25 GMT -5
Seeding has prevailed as a metric for season success on this board because it substantially overstates how good we as a team actually performed. We've basically perfected the NCAA resume with our OOC scheduling and to a lesser degree the computer rankings advanced metrics. Working backwards:
2015-16: received votes in November, ended unranked, bad, possibly no tournament; ended unranked 2014-15: finished ranked #22 AP / #24 coaches, probably should have been a #6, got a #4, lost to a better #5; ended unranked 2013-14: received votes in November, ended unranking, bad, NIT; ended unranked 2012-13: finished ranked #8 / #8, probably deserving of last #2 seed, smoked by FGCU; ended #17 2011-12: finished ranked #15 / #15, gifted a #3 seed, outplayed by #11 NCSt in second round; ended #17 2010-11: #22 / #22 before (no Selection Sunday poll) a 17-point loss to UConn in the BET which put us on a 4-game losing streak with Wright's wrist, gifted a #6, lost by 18 to VCU; ended unranked 2009-10: #14 / #15, given a 3 seed, lost by 14 to Ohio; ended unranked 2008-09: peaked at #8 / #9 around New Year's, fell apart, NIT; ended unranked
So that's 6 out of the last 8 years we've ended the season outside the Top 25, with our peak at #17. Not great.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 23, 2016 10:35:41 GMT -5
Agree with jinx. We aren't passing the eye test for improvement either (quite the opposite the past few years). We are going to miss the tourney in 2 of the last three years when the tourney is very watered down with a field of 68. All is very unacceptable. I'll always point out that we are one Jeff Green travel call against Vandy from that final four and we are closing in on a decade of no second weekend appearances in the tourney. Totally agree, we are getting worse and the trend is what matters. If it was just a blip every 3 or 4 years that would be understandable, but missing the NCAA bubble 2 out of 3 years and possibly having a losing record this season is inexcusable. Also discouraging, we have played largely uncompetitive basketball lately and we have no clear path to improving next season. Next season is make or break for me. I have been an ardent supporter of III in the past, an apologist, however this season has really opened my eyes. A few years ago it was recruiting that was hurting us and III cleaned house, then it was recruiting the right players for the system, now it is adjusting to the new rules that have been in place for THREE years; how many chances does he get? I refuse to accept us becoming DePaul. Either we show significant improvement (making the NCAAs is important but also seeing a team that competes and looks competent) next season or I will be right with the folks calling for III to step down.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 23, 2016 11:00:34 GMT -5
So does that merit $3M? No. Is that really a record that merits $3M? Btw, why didn't you include his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament? It's becoming harder to hide the fact that he is not getting there regularly. Does that merit $3M? You may ask what are my expectations. I'll answer something that merits $3M, which I think is a pretty good record, Top 15 yearly, and reaching the NCAAs 4 out of 5 years (because we'll have that rebuilding year after a championship). That merits $3M. Of the titles awarded in the NBE, Villanova has won 3 and Providence 1. We haven't reached the championship game. Until when do we hide in the past and not face what is happening in the present to be able to be competing for titles in the future? If we're stuck with the Thompsons, then JT3 has to change his approach to offense, defense and recruiting. He is responsible for his assistant coaches, for his recruits and for the brand. What programs are in the top 15 yearly? Seriously, that's your expectation? Think about that. You'd be disappointed in the program if we were ranked in the top 15 for two straight years (getting a 1-4 seed) and then the next year we're a top 25 team (getting a 6 seed)? If that would be disappointing to you, well, you're going to be disappointed an awful lot! And we can go ahead and include "his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament." That's my main measuring stick, by the way. It's 8 out of 12 (that's conceding this year and including his first year). That's pretty damned good! I believe there's only 2 teams in the ACC with more in that time span. (I think probably only Nova and X have more in ours.) Obviously, things don't look as good if you look at the last three years (including this one). I can't stop anyone from caring about the ROI thing, but I still think it's silly. There's a reason that during games they show standings in the conference, and the Top 25, and things like that on the broadcast. They don't then normalize those numbers accounting for coaching salary. All that matters, ultimately, is the performance on the court. Ours this year stinks. More to the point, basically no one is worth $3M if your expectations are as you state them. Here are the guys making between $2.5M and $3.5M (of those that made the NCAAT tournament last year): Scott Drew, Travis Ford, Rick Barnes, Steve Alford, Lon Kruger, Jay Wright, III, Bo Ryan, Crean, Huggins, Matta, Sean Miller. Would any of them have met your stated expectations? Maybe one or two? Barnes has since been canned, which is one name in your favor. But I don't believe anyone else has been. Unless your last name starts with a K, or you "compensate" players in various ways to come to your school located in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, basically no one is worth that much! To me the debate gets too broad, top 15 or being like KU or UK or Duke just muddles the discussion of what's truly possible for G'town basketball now.. My expectations are for G'town to be at least a top 4 team in the Big East every year.. Who among us fans think that's unrealistic? If the program does that the rankings & the NCAA bids will come.. Right now Villanova has clearly established itself as the top school in the BE and Xavier has staked a claim for #2.. Can G'town be that solid 3rd or is that too much to ask?
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 23, 2016 11:24:14 GMT -5
Agree with jinx. We aren't passing the eye test for improvement either (quite the opposite the past few years). We are going to miss the tourney in 2 of the last three years when the tourney is very watered down with a field of 68. All is very unacceptable. I'll always point out that we are one Jeff Green travel call against Vandy from that final four and we are closing in on a decade of no second weekend appearances in the tourney. A decade away from the second weekend is a damning indictment of this program - people can point to inflated midseason rankings all they want, but when it matters this coach and team has disappeared, and often barely bothered to show up. Given its conference and its outlook, this program is much closer to irrelevance than it ever was under Craig Esherick. It's as amazing as it is depressing that the program has been steered to this point, and there's no light at the end of this tunnel.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 23, 2016 11:37:12 GMT -5
NC, I have also been a JTIII apologist and that door has now closed. There is a general lack of fire in our players. They don't seem to be having fun. They are overthinking the game and other then the recruiting of Lykes, I don't know why any of this will change. White/Agau & Hayes injuries are not a reason for this team being where they are at.
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hoyajinx
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Post by hoyajinx on Feb 23, 2016 11:44:57 GMT -5
NC, I have also been a JTIII apologist and that door has now closed. There is a general lack of fire in our players. They don't seem to be having fun. They are overthinking the game and other then the recruiting of Lykes, I don't know why any of this will change. White/Agau & Hayes injuries are not a reason for this team being where they are at. I wouldn't say I've been an apologist, but I have been defensive of him as well. Like some fans on here, I think next year may finally be my breaking point. After this year, however, we need a substantially better performance (I don't consider squeaking into the tournament a success) in order for me to be okay with the status quo. Not that my voice generally matters, but the aggregate of opinions similarly voiced may have some effect.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:28:41 GMT -5
JT3 closed the deal on Jeff Green and Ewing Jr didn't want to come with Esh at the helm. Not quite. 1. Green had committed previously but there were grade issues were still being worked out by the time of the coaching change. 2. Patrick Jr. had wanted to come to Georgetown but there was a dispute between Mom and Dad and she wanted him to go to school somewhere else--hence, his selection of Bloomington, IN. 1. When did he commit? He was back and forth about it. 2. Why do you think that was?
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 23, 2016 12:32:58 GMT -5
Green signed a LOI in the fall of 2003. From everything I have heard, the notion that he was going to "decommit" is a bunch of bunk.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:34:44 GMT -5
What programs are in the top 15 yearly? Seriously, that's your expectation? Think about that. You'd be disappointed in the program if we were ranked in the top 15 for two straight years (getting a 1-4 seed) and then the next year we're a top 25 team (getting a 6 seed)? If that would be disappointing to you, well, you're going to be disappointed an awful lot! And we can go ahead and include "his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament." That's my main measuring stick, by the way. It's 8 out of 12 (that's conceding this year and including his first year). That's pretty damned good! I believe there's only 2 teams in the ACC with more in that time span. (I think probably only Nova and X have more in ours.) Obviously, things don't look as good if you look at the last three years (including this one). I can't stop anyone from caring about the ROI thing, but I still think it's silly. There's a reason that during games they show standings in the conference, and the Top 25, and things like that on the broadcast. They don't then normalize those numbers accounting for coaching salary. All that matters, ultimately, is the performance on the court. Ours this year stinks. More to the point, basically no one is worth $3M if your expectations are as you state them. Here are the guys making between $2.5M and $3.5M (of those that made the NCAAT tournament last year): Scott Drew, Travis Ford, Rick Barnes, Steve Alford, Lon Kruger, Jay Wright, III, Bo Ryan, Crean, Huggins, Matta, Sean Miller. Would any of them have met your stated expectations? Maybe one or two? Barnes has since been canned, which is one name in your favor. But I don't believe anyone else has been. Unless your last name starts with a K, or you "compensate" players in various ways to come to your school located in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, basically no one is worth that much! To me the debate gets too broad, top 15 or being like KU or UK or Duke just muddles the discussion of what's truly possible for G'town basketball now.. My expectations are for G'town to be at least a top 4 team in the Big East every year.. Who among us fans think that's unrealistic? If the program does that the rankings & the NCAA bids will come.. Right now Villanova has clearly established itself as the top school in the BE and Xavier has staked a claim for #2.. Can G'town be that solid 3rd or is that too much to ask? Wow! Now we're going to accpet being the solid 3rd in the NBE??? Are we resigned to be third fiddle to Villanova and another team?? How far have we dropped as a program! I thought we were the face of the NBE or one of them.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:35:29 GMT -5
Green signed a LOI in the fall of 2003. From everything I have heard, the notion that he was going to "decommit" is a bunch of bunk. Not from what I heard.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 23, 2016 12:36:55 GMT -5
From who? Syracuse coaches who were trying to jump on him? I have talked to myriad people with knowledge who say that Jeff was a rock-solid commit at all times.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:44:16 GMT -5
"Suffered Tremendously": - NCAA Seeds: 4, 2, 3, 6, 3, 2, 2, 7 - Several top 25 and top 10 rankings - KenPom rankings of: 45, 13, 4, 8, 34, 16, 36, 16, 12, 65, 25, 74 (subject to change) - Winner of the Big East regular season title (twice) - Made Big East Tournament championship game (three times) - Winner of the Big East tournament (once) - 4 of 8 years got past the first round - 2 Sweet 16's - 1 Final Four Obviously, given our seeding, we "should" have more Sweet 16's. And that makes us, as fans, unhappy. But, the record above is superior to that of most Division I teams, and squarely puts us among the best Division I teams since JT3 has taken the helm. It might not be what we want, especially in March, but to call it suffering is silly. So does that merit $3M? No. Oh my god. Are we still having this debate?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 23, 2016 12:44:49 GMT -5
Given its conference and its outlook, this program is much closer to irrelevance than it ever was under Craig Esherick. It's as amazing as it is depressing that the program has been steered to this point, and there's no light at the end of this tunnel. It's time to move away from the ledge. First, the program WAS irrelevant under Craig Esherick. In 2004, when he left, Georgetown was ranked 139 of all Division I teams. As a reference point, Marquette is currently 100, DePaul is 193, and St. John's is 229. Esherick made the NCAA tournament once out of 5 tries, and he basically had a golden path through a 15 seed to the Sweet 16. Clearly, Georgetown has underperformed. My opinion is that the best remedy is to continue getting to the NCAA tournament with good seeds, and we'll break through. Most coaches are incapable of doing that. I realize the last three years have been less than stellar, but it's also silly to take the last three years while ignoring what came beforehand (and I am not even arguing to go back to 2007). So, what's your solution? Who are you going to hire? Any JT3 replacement would surely make less money, so I bet that would make many of you happy for some inexplicable reason. We have been over this many, many times. You do not fire someone without having a good idea of who is going to replace the coach. I have yet to see any realistic names that are proven coaches that get teams into the NCAA tournament every year. Now, if you want to take a risk and go for an unproven younger coach like Wojo, who is unlikely to stay with the team if he has any success, that's at least a position. But, the pie in the sky, "For $3 million we can get a great coach" assertion that's often thrown out here makes no sense. Anybody making a lot of money now is unlikely to leave their current job for Georgetown (see Gregg Marshall). And somebody like Tommy Amaker did poorly at both Seton Hall and Michigan, so even though he's had some success at Harvard, there's no reason to think he'd do great at Georgetown. In sports, things are rarely as good as they seem when things go well or bad as they feel when things go poorly. I really think a lot of fans are having an emotional reaction because they are not used to seeing us lose - and why? Because of the success we've had the last 10 years. If Craig Esherick was still at the helm, this sort of losing would probably be considered a quality season.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:49:57 GMT -5
So does that merit $3M? No. Is that really a record that merits $3M? Btw, why didn't you include his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament? It's becoming harder to hide the fact that he is not getting there regularly. Does that merit $3M? You may ask what are my expectations. I'll answer something that merits $3M, which I think is a pretty good record, Top 15 yearly, and reaching the NCAAs 4 out of 5 years (because we'll have that rebuilding year after a championship). That merits $3M. Of the titles awarded in the NBE, Villanova has won 3 and Providence 1. We haven't reached the championship game. Until when do we hide in the past and not face what is happening in the present to be able to be competing for titles in the future? If we're stuck with the Thompsons, then JT3 has to change his approach to offense, defense and recruiting. He is responsible for his assistant coaches, for his recruits and for the brand. What programs are in the top 15 yearly? Seriously, that's your expectation? Think about that. You'd be disappointed in the program if we were ranked in the top 15 for two straight years (getting a 1-4 seed) and then the next year we're a top 25 team (getting a 6 seed)? If that would be disappointing to you, well, you're going to be disappointed an awful lot! And we can go ahead and include "his overall record in making the NCAA Tournament." That's my main measuring stick, by the way. It's 8 out of 12 (that's conceding this year and including his first year). That's pretty damned good! I believe there's only 2 teams in the ACC with more in that time span. (I think probably only Nova and X have more in ours.) Obviously, things don't look as good if you look at the last three years (including this one). I can't stop anyone from caring about the ROI thing, but I still think it's silly. There's a reason that during games they show standings in the conference, and the Top 25, and things like that on the broadcast. They don't then normalize those numbers accounting for coaching salary. All that matters, ultimately, is the performance on the court. Ours this year stinks. More to the point, basically no one is worth $3M if your expectations are as you state them. Here are the guys making between $2.5M and $3.5M (of those that made the NCAAT tournament last year): Scott Drew, Travis Ford, Rick Barnes, Steve Alford, Lon Kruger, Jay Wright, III, Bo Ryan, Crean, Huggins, Matta, Sean Miller. Would any of them have met your stated expectations? Maybe one or two? Barnes has since been canned, which is one name in your favor. But I don't believe anyone else has been. Unless your last name starts with a K, or you "compensate" players in various ways to come to your school located in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, basically no one is worth that much! I changed my original point to Top 25 some time ago, but the rest still stands. And, I have been disappointed a lot, esp. with three Villanova neighbors. I believe we could and should be an elite program. Now that we know we can pay job compensation as the 8th out of 351 colleges, as big as state schools with great budgets, then the school, the current students, alumni and fans deserve better. If your point is "we should be satisfied with the product", then O.K. but don't pay as a top school. Given his overall performance, do you think JT3 could earn $3M at another school?
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:55:35 GMT -5
From who? Syracuse coaches who were trying to jump on him? I have talked to myriad people with knowledge who say that Jeff was a rock-solid commit at all times. People related to the Athletics department.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 23, 2016 12:56:20 GMT -5
So does that merit $3M? No. Oh my god. Are we still having this debate? It's the off-season... Oh, wait...
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