NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 19, 2016 10:46:23 GMT -5
I think Oldhoyafan is on to something. We lack an alpha dog that can get his teammates to rally, provide direction and hold teammates accountable. We will be getting a guy like that in Mosely next season, but he will only be a freshman. III needs to identify the guy with this potential, regardless of class or position, and place him in the leadership role beginning this offseason.
The body language/confusion has been consistent since day 1, so I do not see it as a chicken or egg thing. Sure, losing makes the symptoms worse, the staring into space, the lack of any bench energy has only gotten more pronounced. However, the problem has been there since Radford. Guys do not communicate on the court even at this late stage in the season, there is no yelling between each other, everyone is "polite" all the time. III actually has shown the most fire in the last few games. That on its own is scary/sad as hell and also a surefire sign there is a leadership void on the floor.
It is not a huge surprise. DSR is not a fiery guy who is going to lay into a teammate and that is OK. He never has been that guy and had always been super effective until this season. The sophs are still young mentally and may not feel it is there place to be that leader. The only guy this season that has shown a little bit of this personality is Bradley Hayes, and you expect that from a senior, but he is a freshman in terms of on the court experience so it is impossible to put that role on him.
Again, I think III needs to figure out who has those traits and push them forward into the role and hope they grow into it by next season. I also think it is time to shake up the staff, bring in a young assistant with some new tactical know how, enough with the recruiters already. You need to be able to do something with these guys or all the 4/5 star recruits in the world are useless.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 19, 2016 11:05:03 GMT -5
It doesn't even need to be something sinister or even off the court. This team plays terribly together. On offense and defense. It's our #1 overall issue, though it could probably be broken down into different components (no hustle, no one seems to be able to make a decision, no communication, no one knows where to go, no one trusts in their teammates because of the previous). Why? Maybe there's an off the court thing. Maybe it's basketball related. But no team can survive with as little on the court chemistry as this team has. "Chemistry" is such a vague term and, you're right, it often connotes something sinister when it need not be. Coach K has famously said (although the concept certainly isn't unique to him or particularly creative) that on each of his teams, he teaches three "systems": offense, defense, and communication. He views the third as most important to building an excellent team and builds verbal and non-verbal communication into every team-based drill they do. Again, I don't think it's particularly insightful in a vacuum, but it is insightful to see how important he views on-court communication (really, another word for on-court chemistry). It's just as important as their general offense and defense. And, as you say, that's the issue. We simply too often don't properly act as a single unit on both ends of the court, which requires communication. Plenty of successful teams have guys on them that don't like each other -- so I view the off-court stuff as more often an effect than a cause. I also mention the K stuff to note that chemistry can be built and is something that can be worked on and improved (or at least K thinks so). I was not aware of Coach K's systems concept. There is no doubt communication is a huge part of the game, and also little doubt it is completely lacking from this Hoyas team. Actually this is probably the most quiet team we have had since 2009 when there were locker room issues. This year's team does not seem to dislike each other, they just do not know who should speak up and who they should listen to. |
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 19, 2016 11:08:54 GMT -5
"Chemistry" is such a vague term and, you're right, it often connotes something sinister when it need not be. Coach K has famously said (although the concept certainly isn't unique to him or particularly creative) that on each of his teams, he teaches three "systems": offense, defense, and communication. He views the third as most important to building an excellent team and builds verbal and non-verbal communication into every team-based drill they do. Again, I don't think it's particularly insightful in a vacuum, but it is insightful to see how important he views on-court communication (really, another word for on-court chemistry). It's just as important as their general offense and defense. And, as you say, that's the issue. We simply too often don't properly act as a single unit on both ends of the court, which requires communication. Plenty of successful teams have guys on them that don't like each other -- so I view the off-court stuff as more often an effect than a cause. I also mention the K stuff to note that chemistry can be built and is something that can be worked on and improved (or at least K thinks so). I was not aware of Coach K's systems concept. There is no doubt communication is a huge part of the game, and also little doubt it is completely lacking from this Hoyas team. Actually this is probably the most quiet team we have had since 2009 when there were locker room issues. This year's team does not seem to dislike each other, they just do not know who should speak up and who they should listen to. This is the part where you miss Paul White he was a huge communicator and point communicator! |
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 19, 2016 11:09:29 GMT -5
"Chemistry" is such a vague term and, you're right, it often connotes something sinister when it need not be. Coach K has famously said (although the concept certainly isn't unique to him or particularly creative) that on each of his teams, he teaches three "systems": offense, defense, and communication. He views the third as most important to building an excellent team and builds verbal and non-verbal communication into every team-based drill they do. Again, I don't think it's particularly insightful in a vacuum, but it is insightful to see how important he views on-court communication (really, another word for on-court chemistry). It's just as important as their general offense and defense. And, as you say, that's the issue. We simply too often don't properly act as a single unit on both ends of the court, which requires communication. Plenty of successful teams have guys on them that don't like each other -- so I view the off-court stuff as more often an effect than a cause. I also mention the K stuff to note that chemistry can be built and is something that can be worked on and improved (or at least K thinks so). I was not aware of Coach K's systems concept. There is no doubt communication is a huge part of the game, and also little doubt it is completely lacking from this Hoyas team. Actually this is probably the most quiet team we have had since 2009 when there were locker room issues. This year's team does not seem to dislike each other, they just do not know who should speak up and who they should listen to. Although it's your point guard's job to be vocal out there |
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 19, 2016 11:59:44 GMT -5
No, you're not. I think there's something else happening about which we do not know. Good thread -- the old farts have risen! Unfortunately, a good chunk of it necessarily is guesswork, as it is nearly impossible to get meaningful information about what is going on behind the scenes with the Hoyas. But I'll play anyway. I like DSR. But the reality is that he came back against his will -- had the NBA been interested, he'd be long gone. You cannot expect real leadership from a player in that situation. I'm not suggesting that he's giving less than a full effort -- it's a matter of having one foot out the door, which is a mental thing. And it shouldn't be a surprise - DaJuan Summers was the case study for this. As for the body language/attitude piece, I think the players are frustrated that the team isn't getting better. They bear some responsibility for that, of course, but I've always questioned whether JTIII truly has command over his players the way his father did. Win or lose, you listened to Pops and got with the program whether you wanted to or not (and if you didn't, you wouldn't last long anyway). JTIII seems to have a more managerial type of personality -- he draws respect via diplomacy and people skills rather than intimidation. Both have their merits in the locker room but perhaps more of the latter is required right now. But I'm not sure it's fair to ask JTIII to be something he's not. Finally, highly recruited players (especially the younger ones) are looking for short-term rewards in college. Any long term aspirations are reserved for pro ball. The absence of upperclassmen on the roster makes it more difficult to keep this in check. |
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,769
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 19, 2016 12:20:07 GMT -5
No, you're not. I think there's something else happening about which we do not know. Good thread -- the old farts have risen! Unfortunately, a good chunk of it necessarily is guesswork, as it is nearly impossible to get meaningful information about what is going on behind the scenes with the Hoyas. But I'll play anyway. I like DSR. But the reality is that he came back against his will -- had the NBA been interested, he'd be long gone. You cannot expect real leadership from a player in that situation. I'm not suggesting that he's giving less than a full effort -- it's a matter of having one foot out the door, which is a mental thing. And it shouldn't be a surprise - DaJuan Summers was the case study for this. As for the body language/attitude piece, I think the players are frustrated that the team isn't getting better. They bear some responsibility for that, of course, but I've always questioned whether JTIII truly has command over his players the way his father did. Win or lose, you listened to Pops and got with the program whether you wanted to or not (and if you didn't, you wouldn't last long anyway). JTIII seems to have a more managerial type of personality -- he draws respect via diplomacy and people skills rather than intimidation. Both have their merits in the locker room but perhaps more of the latter is required right now. But I'm not sure it's fair to ask JTIII to be something he's not. Finally, highly recruited players (especially the younger ones) are looking for short-term rewards in college. Any long term aspirations are reserved for pro ball. The absence of upperclassmen on the roster makes it more difficult to keep this in check. I haven't been called an old fart in a long time. Thanks! |
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 19, 2016 12:25:57 GMT -5
No, you're not. I think there's something else happening about which we do not know. ME TOO ..SEEMS LIKE SOME LOCKER ROOM ISSUES AND YOU BEST BELIEVE THERE'S AN AGENT SOMEWHERE IN DSR'S HEAD TELLING HIM TO PUT UP NUMBERS FOR THE NEXT LEVEL WHETHER IT BE NBA OR OVERSEAS!!! I "best believe" that? If anything, his play this year shows the opposite! He hasn't shot 30 shots a game. He hasn't generally dominated the ball when he's been in there. He's been looking to pass a lot on his drives to the basket. He hasn't even been formally playing the point position all the time when he's in there and, of course, at the next level (wherever that is), he'll need to play that position exclusively given his size. |
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bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by bostonfan on Feb 19, 2016 12:34:14 GMT -5
Maybe Paul White is that leader for next year, but who knows, he seems like a quiet guy. I can't see Reggie Cameron fitting into that role in his senior season. He does not look like a fiery leader and he is just not that good. He can be a role player as a shooter but a leader needs to do more. They really need someone to step and be that junk yard dog defender that leads by example. Being a great score would be a bonus but I think the identity of this team needs to come from the defensive end.
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OldHoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 19, 2016 12:47:01 GMT -5
I was not aware of Coach K's systems concept. There is no doubt communication is a huge part of the game, and also little doubt it is completely lacking from this Hoyas team. Actually this is probably the most quiet team we have had since 2009 when there were locker room issues. This year's team does not seem to dislike each other, they just do not know who should speak up and who they should listen to. This is the part where you miss Paul White he was a huge communicator and point communicator! a I have always been a Paul White fan. Love his game, but he is more like DSR in personality than an Otto Porter, Jabril or Markel. In other words I don't see him as an alpha dog. I love his passing and dribbling skills from the forward position, but let's not confuse that with those that are required of a pg. He would have made a positive difference if he had been healthy this year, but not enough to save the season given the other deficiencies on the team. Peak via his athletic skills has the ability to be the alpha dog on this team, I.e., leading through example of effective aggressive play. If you watch Dunn, he is not a vocal guy, but he leads through the power of his skills. Everyone knows he is the leader of that team because he can do things, and does them, when no one else can. They follow him. Peak is the most gifted athlete on this team. He can provide similar leadership. He does not have Dunn's complete skill set , especially dribbling, at this time but with practice he can get there. That's why I hope III uses the remainder of the season to define his role as the pg for next year. I am willing to not shoot my tv when he drives to the hoop and throws an errant pass or misses a layup and long as he keeps doing it, because I know the passes will eventually hit there target and the shots will fall with consistency eventually. From here to the rest of the season, I am looking for incremental improvement for next season. |
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hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
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Post by hoyainla on Feb 19, 2016 13:02:25 GMT -5
I brought up off court strife earlier in the season and was told to back off speculation. Since we will never get it from the school the only small look we have into the program is the players social media. There's group that think reading into things on social media is stupid and thats fine. If you don't think young people today are putting their true feelings on social media then I disagree. I will not speculate on what the problem is, but I will say that I am in the camp that whatever is wrong this year goes beyond X's and O's even though I think those stink to. This team is way too talented to be this bad. I am very interested to see how good this team is next year. We are not really fixing the personnel problem (Pass first PG) and as much as I pray for it I don't see a scheme change coming. I do think you will see a different attitude out of this team next year and a better year.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 19, 2016 13:14:12 GMT -5
Good thread -- the old farts have risen! Unfortunately, a good chunk of it necessarily is guesswork, as it is nearly impossible to get meaningful information about what is going on behind the scenes with the Hoyas. But I'll play anyway. I like DSR. But the reality is that he came back against his will -- had the NBA been interested, he'd be long gone. You cannot expect real leadership from a player in that situation. I'm not suggesting that he's giving less than a full effort -- it's a matter of having one foot out the door, which is a mental thing. And it shouldn't be a surprise - DaJuan Summers was the case study for this. As for the body language/attitude piece, I think the players are frustrated that the team isn't getting better. They bear some responsibility for that, of course, but I've always questioned whether JTIII truly has command over his players the way his father did. Win or lose, you listened to Pops and got with the program whether you wanted to or not (and if you didn't, you wouldn't last long anyway). JTIII seems to have a more managerial type of personality -- he draws respect via diplomacy and people skills rather than intimidation. Both have their merits in the locker room but perhaps more of the latter is required right now. But I'm not sure it's fair to ask JTIII to be something he's not. Finally, highly recruited players (especially the younger ones) are looking for short-term rewards in college. Any long term aspirations are reserved for pro ball. The absence of upperclassmen on the roster makes it more difficult to keep this in check. I haven't been called an old fart in a long time. Thanks! Intended as a term of respect -- my kids usually intend it as something else. |
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 19, 2016 14:16:08 GMT -5
This is the part where you miss Paul White he was a huge communicator and point communicator! a I have always been a Paul White fan. Love his game, but he is more like DSR in personality than an Otto Porter, Jabril or Markel. In other words I don't see him as an alpha dog. I love his passing and dribbling skills from the forward position, but let's not confuse that with those that are required of a pg. He would have made a positive difference if he had been healthy this year, but not enough to save the season given the other deficiencies on the team. Peak via his athletic skills has the ability to be the alpha dog on this team, I.e., leading through example of effective aggressive play. If you watch Dunn, he is not a vocal guy, but he leads through the power of his skills. Everyone knows he is the leader of that team because he can do things, and does them, when no one else can. They follow him. Peak is the most gifted athlete on this team. He can provide similar leadership. He does not have Dunn's complete skill set , especially dribbling, at this time but with practice he can get there. That's why I hope III uses the remainder of the season to define his role as the pg for next year. I am willing to not shoot my tv when he drives to the hoop and throws an errant pass or misses a layup and long as he keeps doing it, because I know the passes will eventually hit there target and the shots will fall with consistency eventually. From here to the rest of the season, I am looking for incremental improvement for next season. No, I don't agree Paul White is nothing like DSR for the simple fact he's also a point forward who makes good decisions on the ball, communicates/point communicates on defense and guards the perimeter with reckless abandon. This young man played against Okafor everyday in practice. As far as getting confused point guard is just some of what he does and the high bball iq skills that he has. Yes, having White imo would've saved the season. Also, I don't the Hoyas would suffer this badly. They'd be more consistent as team. I've written about putting Peak on the ball before this season started. I knew what the outcome would be if we kept DSR on the ball. I've seen it for three years. |
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 19, 2016 15:16:08 GMT -5
Let me first say that any player that fulfills his commitment to a university for four years and gets his degree should be applauded. So my caps off to DSR for coming back and honoring his commitment to Georgetown. Now let me make an observation of his play this year. It has been puzzling and very underwhelming. I remember watching him in nationally televised games during some of his HS games and coming away thinking that the Hoyas had made a coup signing him. On that team were two McDonold's All Americans Lewis the pg and Adams the sg. I thought that DSR was a better player because he let the game come to him without being a ball hawk like Adams and still was able to score when the team needed him. That unselfish trait or demurring personality is what I think is one of the problems this year. As a freshmen, Markel was the Alpha Dog at pg and Otto provided whatever else was needed by the team so all he had to do was concentrate on scoring. His sophmore year Martel was stil the Alpha Dog and Jabril was called upon to do the other things needed to win. His junior year out of necessity he was the pg, but he still had Jabril to be the Alpha Dog and do the things needed to win. This year there is no Jabril and he was forced to try to be the Alpha Dog and play pg. Unfortunately, he is just not equipped physically and mentally to be either. This year's NCAA hopes are over absent winning the BE, I think DSR should continue to start in deference to him coming back for his senior year but Peak should start at pg and be told to drive the ball whenever possible to the basket. He should also be told to look first to pass instead of score in the first half to practice that skill for next year ,because the Hoyas will need him to be the play maker next year to keep the Hoyas from repeating this year. I have to echo what most have said about the dissapointment of Tre's lack of improvement this year. He too is not a real pg and lacks the will to drive to the basket through contact. The pg is the floor general, he sets the attitude of the rest of the players. When DSR is playing passively, the rest of the team takes that lead and plays that way also. If PEAK practices lowering his dribble and passing over the summer he could become close to Dunn's effectiveness for this team. Yes, I agree with this in general. But just so that you would know, Jordan thought that DSR looked to shoot the ball too much. |
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 19, 2016 15:18:48 GMT -5
All valid discussion points but it seems like a chicken-or-egg issue to me. I think it more likely that the body language and chemistry issues are simply the result of having a dismal year. If we as fans are this frustrated, imagine how frustrated these young men are at the way this season has gone. And I hope you are right. I am willing to concede the point that we are having a dismal year. My hope is that it is not anything more than that. |
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 19, 2016 15:25:57 GMT -5
Good thread -- the old farts have risen! Unfortunately, a good chunk of it necessarily is guesswork, as it is nearly impossible to get meaningful information about what is going on behind the scenes with the Hoyas. But I'll play anyway. I like DSR. But the reality is that he came back against his will -- had the NBA been interested, he'd be long gone. You cannot expect real leadership from a player in that situation. I'm not suggesting that he's giving less than a full effort -- it's a matter of having one foot out the door, which is a mental thing. And it shouldn't be a surprise - DaJuan Summers was the case study for this. As for the body language/attitude piece, I think the players are frustrated that the team isn't getting better. They bear some responsibility for that, of course, but I've always questioned whether JTIII truly has command over his players the way his father did. Win or lose, you listened to Pops and got with the program whether you wanted to or not (and if you didn't, you wouldn't last long anyway). JTIII seems to have a more managerial type of personality -- he draws respect via diplomacy and people skills rather than intimidation. Both have their merits in the locker room but perhaps more of the latter is required right now. But I'm not sure it's fair to ask JTIII to be something he's not. Finally, highly recruited players (especially the younger ones) are looking for short-term rewards in college. Any long term aspirations are reserved for pro ball. The absence of upperclassmen on the roster makes it more difficult to keep this in check. I haven't been called an old fart in a long time. Thanks! Me, nether. My wife would certainly get a tickle out of that. |
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