njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 23, 2015 12:23:45 GMT -5
Since we are going into the Christmas break, where we'll have no Hoya game upon which to comment/grouse/moan/choose your verb, I thought it might be worthwhile to take a step back from the collective angst and vitriol that has consumed HoyaTalk for the past several weeks, and pose the following for your consideration and comment:
Several years ago (I'm thinking just prior to or during the Esherick years), I raised this issue with my fellow First New Northers at the Big East Tournament. . .is it time to consider voluntarily leaving the world of big time college basketball and compete at a lower, albeit less remunerative, level? Georgetown does not compete on a even field with the vast majority of college programs, due in no small part to the stringent academic requirements at the Hilltop. Even given the best efforts of the academic coordinating staff, we have had issues keeping key players in academic compliance; this issue doesn't seem to occur at other institutions to the degree that it has at Georgetown, and I believe that is due to the nature of courses "offered" to athletes at other schools. Additionally, in the changing world of college basketball, where one-and-dones proliferate, the panache of a Georgetown diploma does not resonate as it once did with many recruits.
We have seen that Georgetown cannot successfully recruit against the so-called basketball blue bloods, with rare exception (Greg Monroe and, to a lesser extent, Otto Porter, who was largely ignored on the recruiting path until late). While Georgetown will have a first-rate practice facility, at long last, it has been a recruiting shortcoming until now.
There is contrasting theory as to whether the basketball program has increased the public profile of the university. For many of the applicants for admission to Georgetown, their parents were perhaps in their teens when the Hoyas made the Final Four in three out of four seasons; this is now ancient history, and as relevant to these applicants as the Georgetown appearance in the 1941 Orange Bowl was to me when I was applying to college.
There has been a discussion of rate-of-return in connection with overall basketball expenses, as well as the contractual obligations owed to JT3, in separate threads. It is arguable that these expenses could be reduced, but I don't believe that such reduction can be undertaken and still enable the Hoyas to compete at the highest level, in part due to the rental costs for Verizon Center. The thought of an expanded McDonough, or a new separate facility on campus, is illusory and not realistic. In short, those expenses will be high irrespective of the contractual requirements of a head coach.
In short, I think there are many compelling arguments that can be made that Georgetown no longer has the ability to compete at the level of institutions with lower academic requirements (if any such requirements even exist), and that moving away from major college sports, as the University of Chicago did long, long ago, may make sense. Please don't take my thoughts as indicative that I am in favor of doing so. . .I'm just putting this out there for your consideration and response.
I recognize that Georgetown will not be abdicating its position in the Big East. I'm raising these thoughts with the intent of soliciting an intellectual discussion (yeah, right) about whether Georgetown should consider whether continuation in the world of big-time college basketball is compatible with the overall vision and mission of the university. This is simply an intellectual exercise; let's try to avoid personalized attacks on positions taken in this thread. . .it is, after all, the holiday season.
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hoyajinx
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Post by hoyajinx on Dec 23, 2015 12:37:01 GMT -5
There is contrasting theory as to whether the basketball program has increased the public profile of the university. For many of the applicants for admission to Georgetown, their parents were perhaps in their teens when the Hoyas made the Final Four in three out of four seasons; this is now ancient history, and as relevant to these applicants as the Georgetown appearance in the 1941 Orange Bowl was to me when I was applying to college. I am absolutely positive that I am in the vast minority with respect to this issue, and, as sad as it may seem, Georgetown basketball helped me make my college decision. When graduating high school in 1997, I had to make a choice between Notre Dame and Georgetown. I LOVED Georgetown basketball beginning in the late 80's. In the early 90's, I wanted to be Joey Brown when I grew up. I wanted to be able to get to see the team that I loved as much as I could, so I opted for Georgetown. While times have almost certainly changed, and the public perception of Georgetown basketball has, for lack of a better word, "evolved" since then, I am not certain what role it currently has in raising the profile of the university. I'm not sure exactly what my point is, but I would not entirely discount the role the success of any given university's team has in raising the profile of that school.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 23, 2015 12:42:34 GMT -5
The short answer is no. I am probably closer to the school as an alum because of hoops and it is a gathering ground for fellow alums. It is also a big reason why I give the amount I do. That is not reason enough to continue on but I do see a day of reckoning coming when unbundling of major sports TV packages creates havoc in the current model. If that happens, I actually think Georgetown is well positioned as I think those chasing the D1 football dream as never will be programs (think 70% of the big 5 conferences) will be drowning in debt and will need to reconsider their approach. The higher education model as a whole will undergo vast changes otherwise only the top 1/2 of 1% will even be able to afford college (or will it make sense for them to pursue it vs. debt loads for loans).
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 23, 2015 12:42:56 GMT -5
There is contrasting theory as to whether the basketball program has increased the public profile of the university. For many of the applicants for admission to Georgetown, their parents were perhaps in their teens when the Hoyas made the Final Four in three out of four seasons; this is now ancient history, and as relevant to these applicants as the Georgetown appearance in the 1941 Orange Bowl was to me when I was applying to college. I am absolutely positive that I am in the vast minority with respect to this issue, and, as sad as it may seem, Georgetown basketball helped me make my college decision. When graduating high school in 1997, I had to make a choice between Notre Dame and Georgetown. I LOVED Georgetown basketball beginning in the late 80's. In the early 90's, I wanted to be Joey Brown when I grew up. I wanted to be able to get to see the team that I loved as much as I could, so I opted for Georgetown. While times have almost certainly changed, and the public perception of Georgetown basketball has, for lack of a better word, "evolved" since then, I am not certain what role it currently has in raising the profile of the university. I'm not sure exactly what my point is, but I would not entirely discount the role the success of any given university's team has in raising the profile of that school. I should have been more precise in my language. I am referring to current applicants, not applicants in the general sense. I believe that there was a time, as you personally demonstrate, that the basketball program had that type of impact on the decision as to (a) college application and (b) college selection. I'm not sure that still occurs today.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 23, 2015 12:44:24 GMT -5
No. The idea that we can't compete is untrue. I don't think it is likely we will be with UNC and Kentucky, but we can more than compete. Basketball does far more good for the University than it costs.
And from a personal standpoint, while I keep in touch with friends from school independent of GU, basketball is the only real connection I have to the University directly. It's really the only thing I care about on a day to day basis.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 23, 2015 12:47:26 GMT -5
Boiled down to its essential components, my position on this topic is that as long as Georgrtown remains a University with a basketball program we are just fine and the program is a net positive. Unfortunately in many places, college athletics has become athletics college. We will not consistently compete against that crowd, nor should we.
Despite my own dissatisfaction and carping about results, as long as our program is committed to the student-athlete, and not vice-versa, it speaks to the Jesuit mission of educating the whole person, and that is good.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 23, 2015 12:57:13 GMT -5
Thanks, nj.
The premise of your question (simplified greatly) is that we can't really compete. But we've shown over the past decade that we can compete with virtually anyone -- and at least at a high enough level to make the endeavor worthwhile.
If the television landscape changed or other financial forces were at work such that we couldn't make it work financially, then I think we would have to have a different discussion. But as others have noted, that discussion would occur only in the context of a much larger one involving many more schools.
The vast majority of my GU friends are not strong supporters of the basketball program. And I still keep in touch with them and would with or without the program. But even they watch the big games (both regular season AND NCAAT I might add). And it's still a way for the school to resonate with them.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Dec 23, 2015 12:59:10 GMT -5
When I enrolled at Georgetown in 1989 Alonzo was a sophomore and Dikemebe a Junior. There was excitement on campus about the program and that excitement was certainly felt by prospective students many of whom felt GU basketball would provide a means to socialize and unite in school spirit. Although my "n" is small, of the two dozen or so applicants I have interviewed annually for the past nine years, only one mentioned Georgetown basketball (not suprisingly the year of our Final Four) as an attractive quality of the University.
Not sure that the academic rigors preclude us from having a top 25 team (using this as a random metric for competitiveness). I suspect recruits know that they will be held academically accountable but they also see that the players who stay graduate and that a Georgetown degree is valuable. This same discussion has occurred with regard to Notre Dame football over the past five or so years. Given the size of a football team it is harder to recruit more athletes to an academically rigorous football program than a basketball program. By this years successes it appears the Notre Dame program which was being buried by many still remains relevant. Schools like Duke also weaken the 'academic rigors' argument.
"...with the intent of soliciting an intellectual discussion (yeah, right)" -- not sure the sarcasm is in the spirit of the holiday season.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 23, 2015 13:04:23 GMT -5
When I enrolled at Georgetown in 1989 Alonzo was a sophomore and Dikemebe a Junior. There was excitement on campus about the program and that excitement was certainly felt by prospective students many of whom felt GU basketball would provide a means to socialize and unite in school spirit. Although my "n" is small, of the two dozen or so applicants I have interviewed annually for the past nine years, only one mentioned Georgetown basketball (not suprisingly the year of our Final Four) as an attractive quality of the University. Not sure that the academic rigors preclude us from having a top 25 team (using this as a random metric for competitiveness). I suspect recruits know that they will be held academically accountable but they also see that the players who stay graduate and that a Georgetown degree is valuable. This same discussion has occurred with regard to Notre Dame football over the past five or so years. Given the size of a football team it is harder to recruit more athletes to an academically rigorous football program than a basketball program. By this years successes it appears the Notre Dame program which was being buried by many still remains relevant. Schools like Duke also weaken the 'academic rigors' argument. "...with the intent of soliciting an intellectual discussion (yeah, right)" -- not sure the sarcasm is in the spirit of the holiday season. Unfortunately, much of the discourse on this board has recently degenerated. To the extent you were offended by my flippancy, I apologize. Also, aside from Duke, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame, how many other schools have academic requirements at Georgetown's level? Not looking to be argumentative, just curious. I also don't put Notre Dame in the same category, due to the astonishing amounts it receives from television rights thanks to its football team.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 23, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -5
It's a fair question but nor a fair choice.
If, by citing Chicago, you are posing the question on Division III, the answer is that you give up all the intangible benefits of intercollegiate athletics (image, branding, national awareness) for a philosophical stand which is, at best, a questionable one. Catholic University won't give merit aid to athletes but they will to people in the music program. Is that a fair trade? Or, is CUA a better place for having dropped out of Division I in 1981? (They would probably be in the Patriot League or MAAC today if they had stayed.) To quote the son of a Georgetown All-American, "you are who your schedule says you are", and Catholic U. then stands alongside titans such as Goucher, Moravian, and Juniata.
There are those who will argue GU no longer competes among its peers--when Georgetown comes to mind among high school applicants, few think of Xavier and DePaul as comparable choices. That said, who are its peers: the patricians (Dartmouth, Brown, H-Y-P), the national universities (Duke, BC, Notre Dame, Stanford), the one-tool players of the Jesuit order (Gonzaga, St. Joe's, St. Louis, et al.) or something more esoteric? Or, do we want Georgetown to be the place where it's Penn on the weekdays and Penn State on the weekends?
The good news is that Georgetown has someone at the helm that understands all this first-hand. Were it not for Jack DeGioia and Paul Tagliabue, Georgetown would be wandering aimlessly in a world where the Gray Out game would be Central Florida or East Carolina.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Dec 23, 2015 13:26:42 GMT -5
I think the current discourse on Hoyatalk regarding the basketball program and, more specifically, JTIII is healthy (sans the ad hominem attacks). In my mind there are two main questions: (1) Can Georgetown field a 'competitive' basketball program in the current dollars and cents sports environment? and (2) Given JTIII's total body of work over the past 12 years and the trajectory of that work is he the right person to remain HC.
Again I will say as someone who interviews two dozen or so applicants a year since 2007 Georgetown Basketball as a means of building a sense of community and social structure does not appear to be a quality that attracts students to Georgetown like back in the olden days. I would be interested to hear what other alumni interviewers or parents of recent graduates or current students have to say.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 23, 2015 13:33:11 GMT -5
I am a former alumni interviewer, and my experience was similar to AltoSaxa's in connection with the perception of the basketball program amongst prospective students.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 23, 2015 13:41:26 GMT -5
In short, I think there are many compelling arguments that can be made that Georgetown no longer has the ability to compete at the level of institutions with lower academic requirements (if any such requirements even exist), and that moving away from major college sports, as the University of Chicago did long, long ago, may make sense. Please don't take my thoughts as indicative that I am in favor of doing so. . .I'm just putting this out there for your consideration and response. . You do not want to go the Chicago model. The student morale and happiness is non existent there and unbelievably bad. Of course it isn't in the best area either so that doesn't help. Also from a brandname standpoint most people have never even heard of that school and mix it up with Circle (UIC) or Illinios. As silly as it sounds branding of the school is important and college sports plays a big part in that.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 23, 2015 13:44:51 GMT -5
I am a former alumni interviewer, and my experience was similar to AltoSaxa's in connection with the perception of the basketball program amongst prospective students. While I have little interviewing experience to share, I think this makes sense. But, I wanted to make a point. I think it's more logical that people would have been drawn to Georgetown because of basketball in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s. Keep in mind, Georgetown's academic profile has risen immensely over the last 30 years or so. Georgetown basketball brought notoriety to the university in an era where Georgetown was not necessarily known as a great national academic school. Georgetown was always a great university, but I think that the number of people who know that now, versus 30 years ago, is significantly greater. I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, Georgetown basketball likely helped raise the university's profile in the 1980s because it was another reason for people to pay attention to the university. But, in 2015, Georgetown is a very well known academic commodity, and thus, while I think basketball is definitely a positive for the university, I doubt it, alone, is much of a draw to most applicants.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 23, 2015 13:51:03 GMT -5
I am a former alumni interviewer, and my experience was similar to AltoSaxa's in connection with the perception of the basketball program amongst prospective students. While I have little interviewing experience to share, I think this makes sense. But, I wanted to make a point. I think it's more logical that people would have been drawn to Georgetown because of basketball in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s. Keep in mind, Georgetown's academic profile has risen immensely over the last 30 years or so. Georgetown basketball brought notoriety to the university in an era where Georgetown was not necessarily known as a great national academic school. Georgetown was always a great university, but I think that the number of people who know that now, versus 30 years ago, is significantly greater. I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, Georgetown basketball likely helped raise the university's profile in the 1980s because it was another reason for people to pay attention to the university. But, in 2015, Georgetown is a very well known academic commodity, and thus, while I think basketball is definitely a positive for the university, I doubt it, alone, is much of a draw to most applicants. I think Bill Clinton helped out too with the branding. Any type of national recognition in the mainstream is good for branding. In the US college sports (specifically football and basketball) are a very big part of that. Which is kind of unique because if you look at the UK or other countries, college sports isn't a big part of branding since kids bypass college for the pros (with soccer).
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canissaxa
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Post by canissaxa on Dec 23, 2015 14:02:34 GMT -5
I don't have the right data at my fingertips to back this up (and US News rankings inconveniently begin in 1983), but speaking to parents of some of my legacy classmates, Georgetown mostly catered to Catholic students in nearby states without the nearly the national reputation prior to the basketball program rise to prominence.
I don't want to confuse causation with correlation, there are several logical causal factors could flow from basketball to ranking: brand awareness, total applications (and therefore admissions rate), alumni donations, etc. So I'd be worried we'd drop out of the top 25 ranking (with the associated cachet) if we didn't have a strong basketball program.
If this causal relationship is true, it seems in the self-interest of alumni to support the basketball to prop up the perceived value of their own degree.
And also on a self-interested note, I kind of like rooting for the team. Or rooting against the team so I can call for the firing of the head coach. Equally fun.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 23, 2015 14:08:05 GMT -5
While I have little interviewing experience to share, I think this makes sense. But, I wanted to make a point. I think it's more logical that people would have been drawn to Georgetown because of basketball in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s. Keep in mind, Georgetown's academic profile has risen immensely over the last 30 years or so. Georgetown basketball brought notoriety to the university in an era where Georgetown was not necessarily known as a great national academic school. Georgetown was always a great university, but I think that the number of people who know that now, versus 30 years ago, is significantly greater. I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, Georgetown basketball likely helped raise the university's profile in the 1980s because it was another reason for people to pay attention to the university. But, in 2015, Georgetown is a very well known academic commodity, and thus, while I think basketball is definitely a positive for the university, I doubt it, alone, is much of a draw to most applicants. I think Bill Clinton helped out too with the branding. Any type of national recognition in the mainstream is good for branding. In the US college sports (specifically football and basketball) are a very big part of that. Which is kind of unique because if you look at the UK or other countries, college sports isn't a big part of branding since kids bypass college for the pros (with soccer). Bill Clinton, the Arkansas fan? Seriously? Georgetown was firmly in the national consciousness and at the upper edge of ultra competitive while he was boning Genifer Flowers.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Dec 23, 2015 14:15:19 GMT -5
Boy, miss a few jump shots over a ten day period and we now might consider picking up our ball and going home - literally.
In my mind there could be only two reasons that we would back away from our commitment to basketball. The first reason would be because it imposes an intolerable financial burden on the school. This is not the case as the program is self funding, even absent any credit that it deserves for general non-directed contributions to the university. A second reason would be if pursuing excellence would conflict with the educational and societal mission of the university. A major reason that I am such a strong supporter of the program is that that threat is profoundly not the case.
My second degree is from the University of Chicago. If the basketball program plays even a small part in warding off the anomie that infects U of C, it is worth all we spend on it and more.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 23, 2015 14:16:32 GMT -5
Nobody would tout Bill Clinton as a die-hard Hoya, but it was definitely something that garnered a lot of attention when he was President. I applied to Georgetown when he was President, and it was definitely a fact touted in the on campus tours. And, even when I was there, people would always mention the room he had in (then-dungeon) Harbin.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 23, 2015 16:59:12 GMT -5
Again I will say as someone who interviews two dozen or so applicants a year since 2007 Georgetown Basketball as a means of building a sense of community and social structure does not appear to be a quality that attracts students to Georgetown like back in the olden days. I would be interested to hear what other alumni interviewers or parents of recent graduates or current students have to say. Where do you live that you interview that many people each year??? None of my interviewees has ever mentioned basketball.
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