njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 22, 2015 18:04:21 GMT -5
Just got back from the Garden. Haven't read through the thread, so if I am redundant with respect to prior comments, my apologies in advance.
I thought, with the exception of the horrible non-flagrant call on Allen, the referees did a pretty evenhanded job today. That being said, or written, there were two officials with clear views of the play, and the non-call was (a) inexcusable and (b) game-deciding. The crowd may have had a slight edge to the Dukies, but not as pronounced as I expected.
I have difficulty criticizing any of the Hoyas off of this game. Sure, DSR struggled at times, and Copeland vanished for large portions of the second half (but, boy, did he serve up those three pointers with onions in the final minutes). Still, this team played nose-to-nose and toe-to-toe with a solid Top 5 team for the entire game, and never folded even after Duke opened up a lead in the second half. It's hard not to be proud of the Hoyas, and I, for one, am very excited about seeing what they look like come March. These guys could be scary good by tournament time.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 22, 2015 18:08:54 GMT -5
I was at the arena so didn't see all the angles, and only saw the replay on the big screen. But I didn't think the Allen play was a flagrant. He fouled him for sure. But not sure it was a "push of an airborn player" thought his hand just extended as peak was falling outta bounds. I know that isn't popular at all here. Just how I saw it though. You are mistaken. You need to watch it again.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 22, 2015 18:10:05 GMT -5
Key stretches that lost the Hoyas the game:
A)The last 4 or so minutes before halftime in which Duke put up almost half of its entire first half scoring output.
B)The first part of the second half during which Gtown had its typical game drought and could barely manage to score for a 6 to 8 minute stretch of time.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 22, 2015 18:12:55 GMT -5
Derrickson is already excellent and will get better once he has the hand strength to hold onto the rebounds that are getting knocked out of his hands. On offense Derrickson is going to have to show more than standing outside the three point line waiting to jack up long jumpers. Yes, he can shoot it. But he should be capable of more.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 22, 2015 18:14:39 GMT -5
I was at the arena so didn't see all the angles, and only saw the replay on the big screen. But I didn't think the Allen play was a flagrant. He fouled him for sure. But not sure it was a "push of an airborn player" thought his hand just extended as peak was falling outta bounds. I know that isn't popular at all here. Just how I saw it though. He elbowed/forearm shivered Peak's back just as Peak was going up. It was more than just a light touch by the hand. Kind of a sneaky old school move but it should have been a flagrant. Agree. They showed two replays at MSG, two different angles. On one you could barely see the hand in the back. The other made it very clear. That was the reason LJ suddenly went flying out of control and smashed his face into the stanchion. Could have been very bad. Fortunately Peak was shaken but OK. The other ref complaint I had was the constant grabbing of our cutters. Pretty outrageous, especially with the new rules and the way things were called at the other end. Nonetheless, we had a chance to win the game despite the nearly catastrophic 21-5 Duke run from 19:18 to 14:05 of the second half. That was what did us in. Damn. Hoyas were so close. I don't believe in "moral victories", but I do believe in watching a team grow, gain confidence, deliver and learn in a big game on the big stage. Getting important contributions from so many bodes well. Team is just scratching its potential. Can't wait to see this season unfold.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 22, 2015 18:22:04 GMT -5
He elbowed/forearm shivered Peak's back just as Peak was going up. It was more than just a light touch by the hand. Kind of a sneaky old school move but it should have been a flagrant. Agree. They showed two replays at MSG, two different angles. On one you could barely see the hand in the back. The other made it very clear. That was the reason LJ suddenly went flying out of control and smashed his face into the stanchion. Could have been very bad. Fortunately Peak was shaken but OK. The other ref complaint I had was the constant grabbing of our cutters. Pretty outrageous, especially with the new rules and the way things were called at the other end. Nonetheless, we had a chance to win the game despite the nearly catastrophic 21-5 Duke run from 19:18 to 14:05 of the second half. That was what did us in. Damn. Hoyas were so close. I don't believe in "moral victories", but I do believe in watching a team grow, gain confidence, deliver and learn in a big game on the big stage. Getting important contributions from so many bodes well. Team is just scratching its potential. Can't wait to see this season unfold. What I like is we've improved each game. I mean 4 games a go we didn't know if Bradley Hayes could put up numbers. 3 games ago it was could Bradley Hayes do that against a lineup taller than 6-8. 3 games ago we didn't know if could really Derrickson shoot the 3 outside of practice. 2 games ago we didn't know if Reggie Cameron could do anything at all. Plus Govan, Trey Mourning, Peak at point guard, Kaleb as defensive stopper and scorer, 3pt shooter, etc, etc. There is improvement everywhere and that means teams have to start game planning for Derrickson, Cameron (don't leave those guys open which spreads the floor) whereas before they didn't have to pay attention to them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 18:41:00 GMT -5
Just watched it again. After the review, one of the refs went over and talked to Allen. I can only imagine what was said: "Everyone in the arena knows that was a dirty, garbage play. So don't do it again. If anyone does it to you, I'll make sure it's a flagrant." That's the duke way. Ref, "normally that would be a foul but since you play for Duke and you are Grayson Allen, I'll just give you a warning. Bad Graysone Allen, don't do it again". Really could have been a turning point in the game. Would have been a huge turning point. There were about 10 minutes left. If they had called it, that would have been 2 fouls for him on that play. The original foul on the floor was his third. The flagrant would have been his fourth. Instead of just getting the ball, we'd have gotten 2 FTs and the ball, and K probably would have had to sit him for at least 4-5 minutes. If there really was nothing to it, there would have been no reason for the ref to go talk to him after the review. That's the part that gets me - they clearly saw something that triggered a need for one of them to pull him aside. If it was just a common foul, there's no need to talk to the kid.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Nov 22, 2015 18:52:14 GMT -5
Shoot me. We should have won.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 22, 2015 18:52:59 GMT -5
That's the duke way. Ref, "normally that would be a foul but since you play for Duke and you are Grayson Allen, I'll just give you a warning. Bad Graysone Allen, don't do it again". Really could have been a turning point in the game. Would have been a huge turning point. There were about 10 minutes left. If they had called it, that would have been 2 fouls for him on that play. The original foul on the floor was his third. The flagrant would have been his fourth. Instead of just getting the ball, we'd have gotten 2 FTs and the ball, and K probably would have had to sit him for at least 4-5 minutes. If there really was nothing to it, there would have been no reason for the ref to go talk to him after the review. That's the part that gets me - they clearly saw something that triggered a need for one of them to pull him aside. If it was just a common foul, there's no need to talk to the kid. On the cheap shot, foul had been called and whistle blown when Grayson gave the elbow push. He was never called for the push. Easily could have been called. I know without a doubt Trawick would have been called for that and the only discussion would have been flagrant 1 or 2.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 22, 2015 18:54:14 GMT -5
That's the duke way. Ref, "normally that would be a foul but since you play for Duke and you are Grayson Allen, I'll just give you a warning. Bad Graysone Allen, don't do it again". Really could have been a turning point in the game. Would have been a huge turning point. There were about 10 minutes left. If they had called it, that would have been 2 fouls for him on that play. The original foul on the floor was his third. The flagrant would have been his fourth. Instead of just getting the ball, we'd have gotten 2 FTs and the ball, and K probably would have had to sit him for at least 4-5 minutes. If there really was nothing to it, there would have been no reason for the ref to go talk to him after the review. That's the part that gets me - they clearly saw something that triggered a need for one of them to pull him aside. If it was just a common foul, there's no need to talk to the kid. Couple that with the charge that was called a block towards the end of the first and it's a completely different game. Having said that, the Hoyas need to learn to lock down on the guy who is carrying their opponent. I expect this group to continue to improve on D and that happens more quickly when an opposing player puts that kind of pressure on the defense. I'd love to have won the game and I would have loved for Allen to get rung up (there was NO way he should not have been called for a flagrant regardless of the continuous slurpings of Dickie V) but, hopefully, this game and, in particular, Allen's performance helps this team improve.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 22, 2015 18:56:06 GMT -5
This is going to be a great season for the HOYA's...can't wait Agreed. Welcome to HT!
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 22, 2015 19:04:42 GMT -5
Would have been a huge turning point. There were about 10 minutes left. If they had called it, that would have been 2 fouls for him on that play. The original foul on the floor was his third. The flagrant would have been his fourth. Instead of just getting the ball, we'd have gotten 2 FTs and the ball, and K probably would have had to sit him for at least 4-5 minutes. If there really was nothing to it, there would have been no reason for the ref to go talk to him after the review. That's the part that gets me - they clearly saw something that triggered a need for one of them to pull him aside. If it was just a common foul, there's no need to talk to the kid. On the cheap shot, foul had been called and whistle blown when Grayson gave the elbow push. He was never called for the push. Easily could have been called. I know without a doubt Trawick would have been called for that and the only discussion would have been flagrant 1 or 2. I remember Jabril basically punching the kid from Eastern Washington across the chest after the play was over in the tourney last season without a flagrant being called.. The refs missed it in this game but you can't use jabril as an example..
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 22, 2015 19:04:39 GMT -5
Graysons a very tough cover you lose him for a second and he's automatic. If you let him go to the basket without him paying price he will do it time and time again. Then again I prefer The Ewing Elbow to the Mullin chin defense as he runs thru baseline screens. Always seemed to work.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 22, 2015 19:11:26 GMT -5
On the cheap shot, foul had been called and whistle blown when Grayson gave the elbow push. He was never called for the push. Easily could have been called. I know without a doubt Trawick would have been called for that and the only discussion would have been flagrant 1 or 2. I remember Jabril basically punching the kid from Eastern Washington across the chest after the play was over in the tourney last season without a flagrant being called.. The refs missed it in this game but you can't use jabril as an example.. Your right on EW game last year but the number of times he was called for legitimate hard fouls with a flagrant was a little too much. All on reputation.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 22, 2015 19:35:54 GMT -5
I remember Jabril basically punching the kid from Eastern Washington across the chest after the play was over in the tourney last season without a flagrant being called.. The refs missed it in this game but you can't use jabril as an example.. Your right on EW game last year but the number of times he was called for legitimate hard fouls with a flagrant was a little too much. All on reputation. But we aren't talking about a legitimate hard foul, we're talking about a cheap shot after the whistle.. As far as I know Allen doesn't have a rep for cheap or hard fouls so maybe that's why they gave him a break in the game today..
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Post by grandmahoya on Nov 22, 2015 19:40:13 GMT -5
Was at the game and agree the Allen push should have been a flagrant which may have changed the game. But thought our team played with so much heart and wanted this win for them so badly. This is only pre-season and there is much potential with this young team. More depth than we've had in years and I agree with the posters who say we are improving with each game.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 22, 2015 20:02:31 GMT -5
Your right on EW game last year but the number of times he was called for legitimate hard fouls with a flagrant was a little too much. All on reputation. But we aren't talking about a legitimate hard foul, we're talking about a cheap shot after the whistle.. As far as I know Allen doesn't have a rep for cheap or hard fouls so maybe that's why they gave him a break in the game today.. They've changed the rule so many times I forget how it works now. But because it was a dead ball, would it have been a T instead of a flagrant? And, thus, is there some different standard? I didn't think it was an obvious one. Could have gone either way.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 22, 2015 20:04:04 GMT -5
Quick thoughts about the game from the Northbound Acela.
We were in the corner off the Hoyas bench and had a clear unobstructed view of Allen's push to Peak's lower back that: a) occurred at least 3 seconds and 3 steps AFTER the whistle, b) caused Peak to lose his balance and crash into the basket support, and c) was BLATANTLY obvious as a push on 2 replays on the arena screen. I'm not sure what those clowns watched on the monitor, but to ignore that foul call is inexplicable. Allen's prior history notwithstanding it was a cheap shot, dirty play. It was one of several momentum changers. The refs, if anything, were inconsistent in their calls from one end to the other and JT3 was apoplectic a couple times in timeouts about what appeared to be different standards for calling post contact.
I don't understand why there is a new rule requiring foul-disqualified players to be replaced in 15 seconds if you're going to allow K to have a 45 second timeout anyway. Likewise, why have a new rule disallowing the shooter leg kick out if you're going to ignore that too? No, refs weren't the reason Duke won but is it too much to ask for consistency and applying the new rules instead of ignoring them?
Allen gets his shot off quickly and after the early moments of the second half I thought the Hoyas did a good job of defending him.
Does Reggie Cameron even think of breaking the Duke defender's ankles with that great spin move last year? This weekend has amped his confidence considerably which is a very welcome thing.
Duke is slow other than Allen and Thornton and are very beatable.
This game was lost on the defensive end. Yes, there were a few unforced offensive errors, but when the Hoyas needed stops in the 15 minutes surrounding halftime they did not get them. Some of that came when both Peak and Mourning had been in the game a couple minutes too long and looked gassed. A timeout to get subs in for them would have been a good idea.
Despite all that, this team was a couple inches away from a buzzer beater win. Add a healthy Paul White and Tre Campbell to the last 3 games and the chance of 3-0 over that stretch increases dramatically. There is enough quality depth that riding the hot hand or hot group from game to game is realistic for the first time in a long time.
Copeland? Johnson? Not perfect but pretty damn good. Trey Mourning's hard work over the summer shows. His 3 attempt was a good look that goes in more often than not for him.
Wisconsin helped the RPI by winning over VCU in the second game.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 22, 2015 20:04:30 GMT -5
Your right on EW game last year but the number of times he was called for legitimate hard fouls with a flagrant was a little too much. All on reputation. But we aren't talking about a legitimate hard foul, we're talking about a cheap shot after the whistle.. As far as I know Allen doesn't have a rep for cheap or hard fouls so maybe that's why they gave him a break in the game today.. Has duke ever had a rep among refs for being hard and cheap. They can do whatever they want.
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Nov 22, 2015 20:10:38 GMT -5
Would have been a huge turning point. There were about 10 minutes left. If they had called it, that would have been 2 fouls for him on that play. The original foul on the floor was his third. The flagrant would have been his fourth. Instead of just getting the ball, we'd have gotten 2 FTs and the ball, and K probably would have had to sit him for at least 4-5 minutes. If there really was nothing to it, there would have been no reason for the ref to go talk to him after the review. That's the part that gets me - they clearly saw something that triggered a need for one of them to pull him aside. If it was just a common foul, there's no need to talk to the kid. On the cheap shot, foul had been called and whistle blown when Grayson gave the elbow push. He was never called for the push. Easily could have been called. I know without a doubt Trawick would have been called for that and the only discussion would have been flagrant 1 or 2. Trawick got a T for taking a charge that broke his own jaw!!
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