Not diggin' Georgetown's Early Schedule--Much too grueling!

[michaelgrahmstylie]

Are we simply taking on more than we can handle with this early schedule? I wonder what JT--not lll--would think about this tough out of the gate bent that we seem to be on in the last two years?

[hoyainspirit]

Jun 11, 2015 14:06:41 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

Are we simply taking on more than we can handle with this early schedule? I wonder what JT--not lll--would think about this tough out of the gate bent that we seem to be on in the last two years?

Everyone knows it's a totally different world from when Pops scheduled. No discussion needed. IMO, our SOS helps, not hurts. I like the big boy schedule!

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Just like last year, if the BE can play strong in OOC, it snowballs throughout season and gets you more teams in and better seeds. Hoyas gotta beat Wiscy & Cuse and if they can get a split out of Duke/MD that would be gravy. Should beat Uconn too. With a jump from Ike, Campbell, Peak, Mourning & White, we are well positioned to handle this (add in the Italy trip and we should be very prepared). Sprinkle in Johnson, Agau, Derrickson & Govan as much as possible and it can only make a very deep team like this better.

[aristides]

Indicates to me that JTIII likes what he has to work with for this upcoming season. I dig it.

[michaelgrahmstylie]

Jun 11, 2015 14:33:53 GMT -5 ColumbiaHeightsHoya said:

Just like last year, if the BE can play strong in OOC, it snowballs throughout season and gets you more teams in and better seeds. Hoyas gotta beat Wiscy & Cuse and if they can get a split out of Duke/MD that would be gravy. Should beat Uconn too. With a jump from Ike, Campbell, Peak, Mourning & White, we are well positioned to handle this (add in the Italy trip and we should be very prepared). Sprinkle in Johnson, Agau, Derrickson & Govan as much as possible and it can only make a very deep team like this better.

Yes, but what if we can't get the better of Wisconsin, Cuse?

[michaelgrahmstylie]

Jun 11, 2015 14:34:34 GMT -5 aristides said:

Indicates to me that JTIII likes what he has to work with for this upcoming season. I dig it.

I Hear you, totally. However, the BE is a grueling conference as it is. Are you saying that pops lacked wisdom as far as his way of scheduling?

[TC]

Jun 11, 2015 14:41:20 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

Jun 11, 2015 14:34:34 GMT -5 aristides said:

Indicates to me that JTIII likes what he has to work with for this upcoming season. I dig it.

I Hear you, totally. However, the BE is a grueling conference as it is. Are you saying that pops lacked wisdom as far as his way of scheduling?

Yes.

[AvantGuardHoya]

JT II did NOT lack wisdom re: scheduling. He approached it in a manner that worked for him in developing his teams. Hard to argue with the success they had, both in the regular season and tournament play. But that was then. I'd be willing to bet he'd adjust his scheduling philosophy now; likely not in the manner of III, but more judiciously.

[johnnysnowplow]

Jun 11, 2015 14:39:03 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

Jun 11, 2015 14:33:53 GMT -5 ColumbiaHeightsHoya said:

Just like last year, if the BE can play strong in OOC, it snowballs throughout season and gets you more teams in and better seeds. Hoyas gotta beat Wiscy & Cuse and if they can get a split out of Duke/MD that would be gravy. Should beat Uconn too. With a jump from Ike, Campbell, Peak, Mourning & White, we are well positioned to handle this (add in the Italy trip and we should be very prepared). Sprinkle in Johnson, Agau, Derrickson & Govan as much as possible and it can only make a very deep team like this better.

Yes, but what if we can't get the better of Wisconsin, Cuse?

Then we take a page out of Izzo's book - take our lumps early on, find our groove in late February, and make a FF run as a 5 seed.

[TC]

Jun 11, 2015 14:51:23 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

JT II did NOT lack wisdom re: scheduling. He approached it in a manner that worked for him in developing his teams. Hard to argue with the success they had, both in the regular season and tournament play. But that was then. I'd be willing to bet he'd adjust his scheduling philosophy now; likely not in the manner of III, but more judiciously.

The RPI came into use in the 90s and JTII made no effort to revamp his schedules to respond to it. He continued to play teams like St. Leo's - he didn't only schedule really poor teams, he pretty much became the face of uncompetitive scheduling.

JTII was an icon and made the program, but defending every stubborn thing he did in the 90's (refusal to recruit, refusal to schedule, refusal to have some semblance of a PR presence/department) just isn't objective.

[FLHoya]

I'm of the opinion that:

1. We've been over-seeded in each NCAA Tournament we've been in since 2010.

2. That happened primarily because of our strong SOS and quality wins.

3. Games against good teams are fun to watch.

So I'm for it.

[AvantGuardHoya]

Jun 11, 2015 15:12:15 GMT -5 TC said:

Jun 11, 2015 14:51:23 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

JT II did NOT lack wisdom re: scheduling. He approached it in a manner that worked for him in developing his teams. Hard to argue with the success they had, both in the regular season and tournament play. But that was then. I'd be willing to bet he'd adjust his scheduling philosophy now; likely not in the manner of III, but more judiciously.

The RPI came into use in the 90s and JTII made no effort to revamp his schedules to respond to it. He continued to play teams like St. Leo's - he didn't only schedule really poor teams, he pretty much became the face of uncompetitive scheduling.

JTII was an icon and made the program, but defending every stubborn thing he did in the 90's (refusal to recruit, refusal to schedule, refusal to have some semblance of a PR presence/department) just isn't objective.

Sorry, TC, that you seem to feel that my comments reflect defending whatever JT II did in the 90's. My point remains that he did what worked for him in developing his teams. Bottom line is whether he scheduled with RPI in mind or not doesn't appear to have negatively impacted his teams' NCAA fortunes.

I also believe John had a scheduling philosophy that reflected his commitment to addressing certain issues. Whether you consider that wise or not is certainly your choice.

I love that JT III has been more daring with his OOC schedule, but come March this board has could care less what happened in November and December. JT II's teams were known for their spring success; JT III's, not so much.

[calhoya]

I believe that given the weakened state of the new Big East, JT III's approach to early season scheduling is critical to player development, enhancing post-season chances through a strong SOS and most importantly, recruiting. The quality kids JT III is recruiting want to be seen playing strong teams, particularly name brand teams like Kansas, UCLA, Duke and Indiana. I applaud him for this approach and have never found myself yearning for games against St. Leos and other cupcakes on the old schedule, even if my stomach hurts when I think of picking up early season losses.

[SirSaxa]

Jun 11, 2015 16:13:38 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

Jun 11, 2015 15:12:15 GMT -5 TC said:

The RPI came into use in the 90s and JTII made no effort to revamp his schedules to respond to it. He continued to play teams like St. Leo's - he didn't only schedule really poor teams, he pretty much became the face of uncompetitive scheduling.

JTII was an icon and made the program, but defending every stubborn thing he did in the 90's (refusal to recruit, refusal to schedule, refusal to have some semblance of a PR presence/department) just isn't objective.

Sorry, TC, that you seem to feel that my comments reflect defending whatever JT II did in the 90's. My point remains that he did what worked for him in developing his teams. Bottom line is whether he scheduled with RPI in mind or not doesn't appear to have negatively impacted his teams' NCAA fortunes.

I also believe John had a scheduling philosophy that reflected his commitment to addressing certain issues. Whether you consider that wise or not is certainly your choice.

I love that JT III has been more daring with his OOC schedule, but come March this board has could care less what happened in November and December. JT II's teams were known for their spring success; JT III's, not so much.

TC - no need to add strawmen arguments that weren't there initially - i.e. recruiting, PR. AGH didn't make those points.

However, AGH is right about JT's scheduling track record and that the BE was very different in those days. Just running through a typical BE season would guarantee a decent SOS for the year. Earlier in his career, simply (or not so simply) getting 20 wins would get you to the NCAAs. Later that changed as TC pointed out, with the advent of RPI. OF course, JT made the NCAAs for like 20 years in a row so whatever he was doing was working. His early season opponents, most famously St. Leo's, were an embarrassment and not the least bit interesting to watch. But, as AGH posted, his teams definitely did develop over the course of a season.

Legit criticism could be assigned to JT for recruiting in the 90's, and for his offense. For a guy who was such an outstanding defensive coach, he lacked vision when it came to offense... like today's NFL HC Rex Ryan. Another criticism could be his assistants. Keeping those same guys for years who weren't very effective at recruiting, nor at introducing new offensive concepts.

But I, for one, give JT some slack on those things because he took a 3-23 team, an ordinary college basketball program, and limited resources, and won a national championship. He also made GU arguably the Top college basketball program in the nation for the decade of the 80s. He easily could have won at least two more titles with a little luck, but was in 3 Final Fours in 4 years just the same. And, he became only the second black HC of a D1 team, and the first to win an NCAA title. He had to breakthrough a ton of prejudice and obstacles to get all that done. He did all that while simultaneously emphasizing education.

OK, I guess I got a little carried away with this post. And yes, I wish he didn't schedule so many cupcakes. But we wouldn't have GU basketball today if we hadn't had JT then.

[Just Cos]

The SOS is a big factor come tournament time. Helps with getting in and with seeding. I'm glad III has exploited the use of SOS metric.

On top of that, as others have pointed out, it is so much more fun to watch.

As for the board forgetting about November and December games come March that is obviously a large generalization. Maybe the average fan has that view but plenty of people on this board look at the entire season and not just March.

[tashoya]

You don't learn much from playing cupcakes that you can't learn in practice. Better not to be feeling overconfident by beating up on teams you should beat. Not to mention, possibly being humbled a time or two isn't the worst thing in the world and, even in losses, playing tough teams gives a tangible example of where the team needs to be in order to be competitive. Not that I don't love an expected, relaxing blowout. I just don't think there's nearly as much to be gained for the guys suiting up.

[DFW HOYA]

Jun 11, 2015 17:23:35 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

However, AGH is right about JT's scheduling track record and that the BE was very different in those days. Just running through a typical BE season would guarantee a decent SOS for the year. Earlier in his career, simply (or not so simply) getting 20 wins would get you to the NCAAs. Later that changed as TC pointed out, with the advent of RPI. OF course, JT made the NCAAs for like 20 years in a row so whatever he was doing was working. His early season opponents, most famously St. Leo's, were an embarrassment and not the least bit interesting to watch. But, as AGH posted, his teams definitely did develop over the course of a season.

Another often overlooked difference in scheduling was that the RPI was changed in the 1990's to add strength of opponents schedule. Prior to this, the weight given one's own record predominated over strength of schedule, which is why Georgetown was #5 in the 1989 RPI even with a non-conference schedule which included not one, but four sub-division I schools in the first four games of the non-conference slate: Hawaii Loa, Hawaii-Pacific, St. Leo, and Shenandoah College.

Jun 11, 2015 17:23:35 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

Legit criticism could be assigned to JT for recruiting in the 90's, and for his offense. For a guy who was such an outstanding defensive coach, he lacked vision when it came to offense... like today's NFL HC Rex Ryan. Another criticism could be his assistants. Keeping those same guys for years who weren't very effective at recruiting, nor at introducing new offensive concepts.

Coach Thompson certainly picked up his share of post-Olympics top recruits (Othella Harrington, Duane Spencer, Allen Iverson, Kenny Brunner) but it's the ones that got away that some Hoya fans remember: Kenny Anderson, Walt Williams, Grant Hill, Rasheed Wallace.

Probably even more damaging (and less covered) in the 1990's was the marked decline of talent in the DC area. Looking at the names of DC players of the year, which was once an honor with national and future NBA potential written all over it, the Washington Post players of the year in Thompson's last seven seasons offered less to recruit with:

1992: Darryl Franklin, Chantilly - played at Bucknell
1993: Nathan Langley, Dunbar - partial qualifier, ended up at George Mason
1994: Victor Page, McKinley Tech - two years with the Hoyas, a lifetime of struggle thereafter
1995: Louis Bullock, Laurel Baptist - a pariah at Michigan after accepting money from a booster
1996: Rolan Roberts, Potomac - Virginia Tech, ended up at Southern Illinois
1997: Alvin Brown, Gonzaga - played at Xavier
1998: Donte Smith, Anacostia: Non-qualifier at California


The assistant coaching issue is well taken as well. Craig Esherick probably had little or no interest in head coaching until John handed the job to him, nor Mike Riley or even the forgotten third coach, Mel Reid. It's been a frequent topic at Big East intra-session bar talks over the years that I maintain that if Thompson wanted to give Craig a test run as coach, he could have slotted him at a Loyola or American and see how he would fare, much like Gary Williams tried to do with Jimmy Patsos. Coach Thompson wasn't interested in this, however. But outside of his former coach at Springbrook, John Barrett, the Thompson style of coaching (and scheduling) was the only strategy Craig knew for 25 years. The lack of seasoning as a head coach then became evident.

And FWIW, Mike Riley is a head coach today but in remarkable obscurity considering he's only five miles away at UDC. His record is just 8-46 but UDC hasn't been able to put together a consistent winner since Earl Jones and Michael Britt left.

[playtyler]

Don't want to hijack this thread. So I will first say I love the early scheduling. We should play as tough a schedule as possible year in and year out. It only helps and it is great for us fans.

As for Thompson's recruiting in the 90's ... it is idiotic to criticize his recruiting. Alonzo Mourning (Class of 1992). Don Reid (long time NBA player (1991 recruit) Othella Harrington (number 2 player in country in recruiting class 1992) and Duane Spencer was a huge recruit (recruiting class 1992). Jahidi White (top 10 in country in 1994). Iverson (1994). Jerome Williams (1994). Victor Page (1995). Shernard Long and Ed Sheffey were both bigtime recruits who did not end up staying (1996). Boumtje (1997) and ANthony Perry (1997, MCdonalds AA and top 4 recruit in nation), Kenny Brunner (probably the best player in the class, and a Samurai sword and Bad Santa). Kevin Braswell (1998, one of Georgetown's leaders all time in scoring, assists, steals and 3 pointers). Lee Scruggs (my alltime favorite Hoya) and Wesley Wilson (top 30) in 1999. Gerald Riley and Mike Sweetney in 2000. Harvey Thomas in 2001 (rivals no. 20 and no. SF in Nation) and Tony Bethel was a huge recruit too. That is some bigtime recruiting in the 90s. By my count that is 6 NBA players (Reid, Harrington, Iverson, Williams, Boumtje, Sweetney) recruited by JT in the 90s after Mourning and several others who had huge potential or were very highly ranked (Page, Long, Perry, Scruggs, Wilson, SPencer, Brunner). The non-factual narrative that JT did not recruit in the 90s needs to end. At least on this site. I thought Hoyatalk was for real fans of the program who actually followed its teams, players and recruiting. There may have been other issues, but recruiting was not one of them.

He still is one of our biggest recruiting draws to this day. If anyone is critical of recruiting, the DSR and Copeland classes were two of the worst in the last 40 years and they happened in a row, depleting any depth. If DSR would have left, we would have had one senior Hayes and one junior Copeland, neither of whom had played at all. DSR is all we have for two years of recruiting. I am hoping like everyone else that Hayes develops into a useful senior big as has happened many times before (Boumtje, Watkins, Reid, Vaughn, Sims).

[playtyler]

Sorry Not Copeland Class. Cameron Class is what I meant in last paragraph.

[playtyler]

Actually it was 7 NBA Players recruited by JT in the 90's. I left out Jahidi White.