kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Apr 19, 2015 11:21:59 GMT -5
We had to play Hollis out of position at the 4. Vaughn, Benimon, Lubick, Hopkins, 3 of Sims seasons, and Joshua Smith all had holes in their games that presented trade-offs that burned us against better front courts. This. Over and over. This. Really? How often do we go up against better front courts? Specifically, when was the last time we lost an NCAA tourney game because we were dominated by the opposing front court?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 11:26:10 GMT -5
Id rather less athletic guards with great shooting. Not being able to shoot is a huge issue for the way jt3 wants to play. Those same guards get torched on the perimeter on Defense and if you don’t have a shot blocking big to erase those mistakes like Roy Hibbert it makes it tough…Imo You can improve shooting easier than you can improve someones athleticism
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
|
Post by calhoya on Apr 19, 2015 12:14:06 GMT -5
I don't understand the criticism of our recent guards. Guard play generally and guard scoring specifically have not been the weakness of recruiting or the team. With DSR, Trawick, Starks, Clark, Freeman, Wright our backcourt has been the most consistent strength and won the matchup or held its own for the past five years. Our limitations and matchup problems have been at some combination of the 3, 4, 5. We had to play 3-guard for offense but suffered on defense. We had to play Hollis out of position at the 4. Vaughn, Benimon, Lubick, Hopkins, 3 of Sims seasons, and Joshua Smith all had holes in their games that presented trade-offs that burned us against better front courts. I agree with this and the comments of MCI earlier in the thread. The problem is not guards, posts or wings, but rather the inability to put together all the components necessary for the system we have been mostly utilizing. Recently we have had posts who could not and would not shoot from more than 5 feet out. We had a post who could not play more than a few minutes without becoming winded and needing a break. This year we had only one guard who would reliably hit the outside shot, even though Trawick proved adept at shooting when inclined to do so. I applaud JT III for showing an increasing willingness to adjust the system to the players, and I recognize that the parts on the recent teams would have looked very different with Otto, Whittington and the player they thought they were getting in Domingo. That said, early departures and transfers are part of the college game and if you are going to compete for national prominence year after year, there must either be substantial depth or the ability to adjust the style of play--radically if necessary--to utilize the players on the team. From reading this site it appears the coaches have targeted the right types of players. Occasionally they have succeeded in getting a Copeland, White, Peak or DSR to come. However, it is difficult to recruit a 4-5 star player with no plans to stick around for four years to come to a team that runs a very specific and different system offense than most high schools teach and expects all players on the court to commit to defense. Freshmen are unlikely to be that advanced, no matter how much natural talent they possess. Nor do AAU coaches emphasize defense at all.
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2015 13:23:16 GMT -5
I don't understand the criticism of our recent guards. Guard play generally and guard scoring specifically have not been the weakness of recruiting or the team. With DSR, Trawick, Starks, Clark, Freeman, Wright our backcourt has been the most consistent strength and won the matchup or held its own for the past five years. Our limitations and matchup problems have been at some combination of the 3, 4, 5. We had to play 3-guard for offense but suffered on defense. We had to play Hollis out of position at the 4. Vaughn, Benimon, Lubick, Hopkins, 3 of Sims seasons, and Joshua Smith all had holes in their games that presented trade-offs that burned us against better front courts. . However, it is difficult to recruit a 4-5 star player with no plans to stick around for four years to come to a team that runs a very specific and different system offense than most high schools teach and expects all players on the court to commit to defense. Freshmen are unlikely to be that advanced, no matter how much natural talent they possess. Nor do AAU coaches emphasize defense at all. Beggars can't be choosers. We have to be able to show the ability to put a small point or shooting guard into the league before the 4-5 star players start coming here. That means putting DSR at point to give him the best chance to get to the league rather than placing him as a great college shooting guard, etc. Seems like some here expect the 5 star guard to automatically come here but the reality it that our best shot is to go after a guy like Anton Gill (4 star top 50 player) who has alot of upside and NBA athleticism, finishing ability and handles who wants to come here rather than wait for a NWG or Kenny Williams who will likley go elsewhere. Worst case scenario is trying to wait a long time for NWG or Kenny Williams only to have them spurn us and then end up not getting Anton Gill because he signs elsewhere due to that wait. *It's also not impossible to make it work. UVA's pack the line defense relies on guys staying for 3-4 years and learning the system. So they have to target guys usually who are going to stay that long.
|
|
bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
|
Post by bmartin on Apr 19, 2015 14:38:31 GMT -5
This. Over and over. This. Really? How often do we go up against better front courts? Specifically, when was the last time we lost an NCAA tourney game because we were dominated by the opposing front court? Good mid majors have good guards who can shoot. The way high majors beat them is dominating points in the paint and rebounding not by winning a 3-point shooting contest. FGCU was soft inside but we got nothing from our front court. That is what cost us the game more than anything else. Starks was our most effective player. Against NC State we were +7 when Henry was on the floor and -10 when he was out because our other bigs were overmatched. Hollis almost won the game for us.
|
|
bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
|
Post by bmartin on Apr 19, 2015 14:48:14 GMT -5
This. Over and over. This. Really? How often do we go up against better front courts? Specifically, when was the last time we lost an NCAA tourney game because we were dominated by the opposing front court? Poeltl and Bachyski definitely outplayed Smith, Hopkins, and Hayes. 21 points to 10 in favor of Utah.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,967
|
Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2015 16:23:35 GMT -5
. However, it is difficult to recruit a 4-5 star player with no plans to stick around for four years to come to a team that runs a very specific and different system offense than most high schools teach and expects all players on the court to commit to defense. Freshmen are unlikely to be that advanced, no matter how much natural talent they possess. Nor do AAU coaches emphasize defense at all. Beggars can't be choosers. We have to be able to show the ability to put a small point or shooting guard into the league before the 4-5 star players start coming here. That means putting DSR at point to give him the best chance to get to the league rather than placing him as a great college shooting guard, etc. Seems like some here expect the 5 star guard to automatically come here but the reality it that our best shot is to go after a guy like Anton Gill (4 star top 50 player) who has alot of upside and NBA athleticism, finishing ability and handles who wants to come here rather than wait for a NWG or Kenny Williams who will likley go elsewhere. Worst case scenario is trying to wait a long time for NWG or Kenny Williams only to have them spurn us and then end up not getting Anton Gill because he signs elsewhere due to that wait. *It's also not impossible to make it work. UVA's pack the line defense relies on guys staying for 3-4 years and learning the system. So they have to target guys usually who are going to stay that long. If putting guards in the NBA is the secret to getting other top flight guards, how come kids aren't flocking to Michigan? The school has put Burke, Hardaway, Robinson & Stauskas in the NBA over the last 4 or 5 seasons.. As for Gill I'm glad the staff didn't push for a commitment this weekend, it tells me that they're waiting to see what NWG does.. I think that's definitely the way to go about it, Goss is a much better fit for the program in 2016 imo..
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2015 16:41:11 GMT -5
Beggars can't be choosers. We have to be able to show the ability to put a small point or shooting guard into the league before the 4-5 star players start coming here. That means putting DSR at point to give him the best chance to get to the league rather than placing him as a great college shooting guard, etc. Seems like some here expect the 5 star guard to automatically come here but the reality it that our best shot is to go after a guy like Anton Gill (4 star top 50 player) who has alot of upside and NBA athleticism, finishing ability and handles who wants to come here rather than wait for a NWG or Kenny Williams who will likley go elsewhere. Worst case scenario is trying to wait a long time for NWG or Kenny Williams only to have them spurn us and then end up not getting Anton Gill because he signs elsewhere due to that wait. *It's also not impossible to make it work. UVA's pack the line defense relies on guys staying for 3-4 years and learning the system. So they have to target guys usually who are going to stay that long. If putting guards in the NBA is the secret to getting other top flight guards, how come kids aren't flocking to Michigan? The school has put Burke, Hardaway, Robinson & Stauskas in the NBA over the last 4 or 5 seasons.. As for Gill I'm glad the staff didn't push for a commitment this weekend, it tells me that they're waiting to see what NWG does.. I think that's definitely the way to go about it, Goss is a much better fit for the program in 2016 imo.. Michigan has one small guard/point guard in the nba in Burke. The rest of the guys are big wings/small forwards like Hollis Thimpson. But even that one (burke) is more than we have right now and Kenny Williams seems to be showing them a lot more interest. Even VCU has Eric Maynard who stuck in the league. I think it definitely hurts us in the small guard department. Conversely we are big Man U and that rep has helped us attract 4-5 star big men from around the country. I'd be very happy getting Anton gill a 4 star (that actually was a 5 star for part of his senior season), that's actually a higher rating than Kenny Williams. Anton will have a year to tweak his shot and get familiar with our system and might be able to entice His best friend Copelad to stay for his junior year so they can play together which would be an added bonus. I think Antons commit is probably already on the table and it's just a matter of him saying yes. If NWG commits later then things will work itself out.
|
|
kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Apr 19, 2015 18:24:49 GMT -5
Really? How often do we go up against better front courts? Specifically, when was the last time we lost an NCAA tourney game because we were dominated by the opposing front court? Good mid majors have good guards who can shoot. The way high majors beat them is dominating points in the paint and rebounding not by winning a 3-point shooting contest. FGCU was soft inside but we got nothing from our front court. That is what cost us the game more than anything else. Starks was our most effective player. Against NC State we were +7 when Henry was on the floor and -10 when he was out because our other bigs were overmatched. Hollis almost won the game for us. Why don't you pick an argument and stick to it. Quit moving the goalposts.
|
|
kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Apr 19, 2015 18:27:31 GMT -5
Really? How often do we go up against better front courts? Specifically, when was the last time we lost an NCAA tourney game because we were dominated by the opposing front court? Poeltl and Bachyski definitely outplayed Smith, Hopkins, and Hayes. 21 points to 10 in favor of Utah. I wasn't aware the front court only consisted of the center position.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,459
|
Post by TC on Apr 19, 2015 18:28:54 GMT -5
A couple weeks ago, we were bemoaning the fact that we didn't think we could get Jahshire Hardnett.
Now people are complaining about a former top-50ish player possibly transferring?
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,967
|
Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2015 19:01:13 GMT -5
If putting guards in the NBA is the secret to getting other top flight guards, how come kids aren't flocking to Michigan? The school has put Burke, Hardaway, Robinson & Stauskas in the NBA over the last 4 or 5 seasons.. As for Gill I'm glad the staff didn't push for a commitment this weekend, it tells me that they're waiting to see what NWG does.. I think that's definitely the way to go about it, Goss is a much better fit for the program in 2016 imo.. Michigan has one small guard/point guard in the nba in Burke. The rest of the guys are big wings/small forwards like Hollis Thimpson. But even that one (burke) is more than we have right now and Kenny Williams seems to be showing them a lot more interest. Even VCU has Eric Maynard who stuck in the league. I think it definitely hurts us in the small guard department. Conversely we are big Man U and that rep has helped us attract 4-5 star big men from around the country. I'd be very happy getting Anton gill a 4 star (that actually was a 5 star for part of his senior season), that's actually a higher rating than Kenny Williams. Anton will have a year to tweak his shot and get familiar with our system and might be able to entice His best friend Copelad to stay for his junior year so they can play together which would be an added bonus. I think Antons commit is probably already on the table and it's just a matter of him saying yes. If NWG commits later then things will work itself out. You're right that Burke is the only pg but to me the other players are 2 guards not sf's, if Gill makes it to the NBA it'll be as a 2 guard as well.. How much has VCU been able to capitalize on Maynor sticking in the NBA? How about Wake Forest with Chris Paul? I'm just not a believer in this getting kids to the NBA gets kids theory.. Kids thriving in college gets kids to comitt much more imho.. Gill's HS credentials are in the past, right now he's a kid who has struggled in college.. Could he turn it around absolutely but it's not a lock at all.. Seeing that schools like Nebraska, UAB & East Carolina are the other schools on his list, if he has an offer that he can commit to right now but he needs to think about it then that's not a good look for him or G'town.. If the mid May timetable is true that tells me the staff wants to see what happens with Goss on his visit before taking a commitment from Gill
|
|
mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
|
Post by mfk24 on Apr 19, 2015 19:10:29 GMT -5
A couple weeks ago, we were bemoaning the fact that we didn't think we could get Jahshire Hardnett. Now people are complaining about a former top-50ish player possibly transferring? This. Tough crowd around here. We are chasing '16 guards HARD, but there's a possibility we miss on all of our primary targets, and I can just see the same people wanting to pass on Gill, bemoaning the staff for still scrambling to sign a guard next spring.
|
|
|
Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Apr 19, 2015 19:16:01 GMT -5
I think we should look at more options, not that the ones that we have are bad, but throw some more kids into the pot and see what shakes out.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,614
|
Post by DanMcQ on Apr 19, 2015 19:44:07 GMT -5
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,967
|
Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2015 19:52:53 GMT -5
A couple weeks ago, we were bemoaning the fact that we didn't think we could get Jahshire Hardnett. Now people are complaining about a former top-50ish player possibly transferring? This. Tough crowd around here. We are chasing '16 guards HARD, but there's a possibility we miss on all of our primary targets, and I can just see the same people wanting to pass on Gill, bemoaning the staff for still scrambling to sign a guard next spring. If the staff misses out on all their 2016 guard targets then they either chose the wrong targets or like in 2015 failed to move on from kids that weren't coming to G'town no matter how long they listed them.. Imo if the staff's primary targets for 2016 are kids like Fultz, Tony Carr, Cassius Winston, Jaylen Fisher ect.. then there's a very good chance they will miss on all of them but having said that there are a lot of other kids in the 2016 class to choose from that are/can be high level players.. Also, no posters were complaining about not being able to get Hardnett..
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2015 20:03:10 GMT -5
Michigan has one small guard/point guard in the nba in Burke. The rest of the guys are big wings/small forwards like Hollis Thimpson. But even that one (burke) is more than we have right now and Kenny Williams seems to be showing them a lot more interest. Even VCU has Eric Maynard who stuck in the league. I think it definitely hurts us in the small guard department. Conversely we are big Man U and that rep has helped us attract 4-5 star big men from around the country. I'd be very happy getting Anton gill a 4 star (that actually was a 5 star for part of his senior season), that's actually a higher rating than Kenny Williams. Anton will have a year to tweak his shot and get familiar with our system and might be able to entice His best friend Copelad to stay for his junior year so they can play together which would be an added bonus. I think Antons commit is probably already on the table and it's just a matter of him saying yes. If NWG commits later then things will work itself out. You're right that Burke is the only pg but to me the other players are 2 guards not sf's, if Gill makes it to the NBA it'll be as a 2 guard as well.. How much has VCU been able to capitalize on Maynor sticking in the NBA? How about Wake Forest with Chris Paul? I'm just not a believer in this getting kids to the NBA gets kids theory.. Kids thriving in college gets kids to comitt much more imho.. Gill's HS credentials are in the past, right now he's a kid who has struggled in college.. Could he turn it around absolutely but it's not a lock at all.. Seeing that schools like Nebraska, UAB & East Carolina are the other schools on his list, if he has an offer that he can commit to right now but he needs to think about it then that's not a good look for him or G'town.. If the mid May timetable is true that tells me the staff wants to see what happens with Goss on his visit before taking a commitment from Gill VCU was able to get Kenny Williams over a bunch of high profile schools. Wake Forrest was able to get Jeff Teague who is now in the NBA. As far as Anton Gill, anybody who put the team on their back in crunch time and got Louisville into the Elite 8 seems like someone that any of our teams in the past 5 years could use. He's looking for playing time and an atmosphere he feels comfortable with: Georgetown (His friends Akoy and Copeland) and ECU (His father's alma mater and incidently Copeland's father's alma mater). If reports are true looks like he just has to talk to his family before making the final decison which will come soon. Seems reasonable.
|
|
SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,620
|
Post by SirSaxa on Apr 19, 2015 20:44:51 GMT -5
In case anyone missed Dan's post, the link is to: Sources: Anton Gill Close to Committing to Georgetown
|
|
bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
|
Post by bmartin on Apr 19, 2015 20:47:41 GMT -5
Good mid majors have good guards who can shoot. The way high majors beat them is dominating points in the paint and rebounding not by winning a 3-point shooting contest. FGCU was soft inside but we got nothing from our front court. That is what cost us the game more than anything else. Starks was our most effective player. Against NC State we were +7 when Henry was on the floor and -10 when he was out because our other bigs were overmatched. Hollis almost won the game for us. Why don't you pick an argument and stick to it. Quit moving the goalposts. I said some combination of 3,4,5 has been weaker than the backcourt and then I gave evidence of how that weakness contributed to the last three NCAA losses. I didn't move the goalposts. I explained how the broader point applied in specific games in different years. Obviously, our team, our opponents, and games in different years were not identical.
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2015 21:01:36 GMT -5
|
|