guru
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Post by guru on Mar 30, 2015 10:09:35 GMT -5
Overall? It's a talent issue combined with some bad luck. Villanova was the only team that was actually a Top 16 team. They played crappy and were out. Out of the rest, should we have expected more than Xavier? I mean, maybe one more. The Big East was good this year because we had a lot of Top 30ish teams -- GU, Xavier, Butler, Providence, and really no abysmally bad teams. Not because we had a lot of elite teams. Aside from Nova, this tournament performance should have been expected. Isn't this - sadly - kind of the definition of a mid-major conference?
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Mar 30, 2015 10:23:25 GMT -5
One or two years of tournament performances is a horrendous way to define any conference. It's just too variable. If things break slightly differently (i.e. a couple extra threes fall or don't fall as the case may be), we have 3 or more sweet sixteen teams and we're all talking about how great the conference is. As was said, there were a bunch of pretty good teams in the league this year and one really good team that played the worst game of their season against NC State (except maybe their game against us). Happens. Try to have a longer time horizon than one year.
And for the record, no, mid-major conferences (whatever the hell that means) don't send six teams to the tournament and they don't have as many good teams and programs as the Big East. So stop wallowing.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 30, 2015 10:27:02 GMT -5
One or two years of tournament performances is a horrendous way to define any conference. It's just too variable. If things break slightly differently (i.e. a couple extra threes fall or don't fall as the case may be), we have 3 or more sweet sixteen teams and we're all talking about how great the conference is. As was said, there were a bunch of pretty good teams in the league this year and one really good team that played the worst game of their season against NC State (except maybe their game against us). Happens. Try to have a longer time horizon than one year. And for the record, no, mid-major conferences (whatever the hell that means) don't send six teams to the tournament and they don't have as many good teams and programs as the Big East. So stop wallowing. No wallowing here. I love the new conference setup, but it is what it is. Atlantic 10 sent six teams to the tournament last season.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 30, 2015 10:30:45 GMT -5
Overall? It's a talent issue combined with some bad luck. Villanova was the only team that was actually a Top 16 team. They played crappy and were out. Out of the rest, should we have expected more than Xavier? I mean, maybe one more. The Big East was good this year because we had a lot of Top 30ish teams -- GU, Xavier, Butler, Providence, and really no abysmally bad teams. Not because we had a lot of elite teams. Aside from Nova, this tournament performance should have been expected. Isn't this - sadly - kind of the definition of a mid-major conference? We're hoping that the conference can build. But we should be under no illusions in terms of recent "elite" history. In the last ten years, Georgetown and Villanova have had multiple, elite regular seasons, earning at least eight (I didn't count them all) top-3 seeds each in that time. Nothing wrong with that performance. And that's 20% of the conference. Everyone else? Not so good. Do you know how many top-3 seeds the other 8 teams in the conference have earned in the last decade combined? Four. One by Xavier. One by Creighton. Two by Marquette. In ten years. That means that 80% of the conference basically averages less than one year a decade in which it has a regular season that would mean a realistic chance at the Final Four. Sure, some teams over-perform (see Butler), but in terms of "elite" level programs, we have two. And those two obviously have underperformed their seed line repeatedly, which doesn't help. This isn't a complaint about DePaul, St. Johns, and Seton Hall (who have a combined two bids and zero NCAA wins in the past decade). All leagues have teams that traditionally struggle. To me, the point isn't really the label -- mid-major etc. -- it's that the programs in our league simply don't have a recent history (and it's not much better if you go back another decade -- in fact, it may even be worse) of being a national power. Is that a problem long term for the league? Maybe not. Is it a problem for Georgetown? It doesn't need to be, so long as we aren't reliant on having wins against elite teams in our league. But if people are looking at the league's overall performance, they need to adjust their expectations. This was a terrific season for the league.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 30, 2015 10:36:01 GMT -5
One or two years of tournament performances is a horrendous way to define any conference. It's just too variable. If things break slightly differently (i.e. a couple extra threes fall or don't fall as the case may be), we have 3 or more sweet sixteen teams and we're all talking about how great the conference is. As was said, there were a bunch of pretty good teams in the league this year and one really good team that played the worst game of their season against NC State (except maybe their game against us). Happens. Try to have a longer time horizon than one year. And for the record, no, mid-major conferences (whatever the hell that means) don't send six teams to the tournament and they don't have as many good teams and programs as the Big East. So stop wallowing. No wallowing here. I love the new conference setup, but it is what it is. Atlantic 10 sent six teams to the tournament last season. The Atlantic 10 sent 6/13 teams, compared to the Big East's 6/10 teams. I think too much emphasis is placed on the total number of teams that get to the tournament anyway, considering the huge difference in the number of teams in each of the conferences. It's way too early to evaluate the Big East as a conference. There are a lot of reasons to think positively about the future (solid performance this year, many good teams, every game on national TV) and there are also a lot of reasons to be negative (low TV ratings, lack of multiple elite teams, small alumni bases for most of the programs). We just have no idea how that will shake out - certainly not after two years. As guru pointed out, a small change of events could have had a drastic difference. If Georgetown had beaten Utah and Villanova made the Sweet 16, suddenly you've got 3 of 6 teams in the Sweet 16. And, I think if Villanova had made it beyond NC State they would have very likely gone farther than that. Obviously, it would have been better for the conference had Villanova gone past the second round, though. I would love to get to the Sweet 16, but part of the problem with "Sweet 16 or bust" as an attitude is that only 16 teams out of 351 D1 programs get there each year. Theoretically, if programs consistently made the Sweet 16 there would be 16 elite programs and everybody else. Now, obviously, that doesn't happen, but it illustrates how hard it is to get there even if you are a good team. Have Villanova and Georgetown under performed in the tournament? Yes. Have both programs had highly successful seasons otherwise? Yes. For what it's worth, I think it's a ton harder to put together the strong single seasons - year to year - that Georgetown and Villanova have had than making a Sweet 16 here or there, since there's so much of a luck component in that.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 30, 2015 11:12:00 GMT -5
Overall? It's a talent issue combined with some bad luck. Villanova was the only team that was actually a Top 16 team. They played crappy and were out. Out of the rest, should we have expected more than Xavier? I mean, maybe one more. The Big East was good this year because we had a lot of Top 30ish teams -- GU, Xavier, Butler, Providence, and really no abysmally bad teams. Not because we had a lot of elite teams. Aside from Nova, this tournament performance should have been expected. Isn't this - sadly - kind of the definition of a mid-major conference? Not really, unless you think Kentucky is the only thing between the SEC and mid-majordom. Or Oklahoma and the Big 12. Or Arizona and the Pac-10. Is the WCC the same as the Big 12 just because Gonzaga made the Elite Eight? There are roughly 75 teams in major conferences. Every year, there's at least 2-4 real mid-majors that make the Sweet Sixteen. That's 12-14 slots for 6 conferences. We got 1 instead of our fair share of 2 (is 2 even our fair share with only 10 teams). That's hardly a showing reflective of a mid-major by definition. Being a mid-major isn't defined by your best team.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Mar 30, 2015 11:56:25 GMT -5
I blame Val for not getting all 10 BEast teams into the Final Four.
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boxout05
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Post by boxout05 on Mar 30, 2015 12:38:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Big East performance has been very Mid Major-y, but 2 seasons does not a conference make.
Jon Rothstein did an hour of CBB talk on WFAN and repeatedly called the Big East a better A10 or AAC, "the East Coast version of the MWC". Ugh. We're better than that but don't have the tournement results and rankings to back it up.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 1, 2015 8:36:57 GMT -5
We have common ground agreement with Villanova under performing. And so did Virginia. And nearly every Big 12 school. Allow me to do to you what you constantly do to others and ask you very specific questions: (1) Should Jay Wright be fired? He's obviously underperformed constantly. (2) Should Providence be satisfied by what they've done the last two years. No postseason wins, right? Should its coach be fired? Should something else be done? (1) Should Jay Wright be fired? He's obviously underperformed constant
This depends on on the goals of the basketball program. The AD, and President appear to be happy with regular season wins, and making the NCAA's no matter what the outcome. I would say Jay Wright is comfortable and has a coaching job there for life. Unless their is pressure from Boosters for better NCAA performances I do not foresee Jay Wright going anywhere. (2) Should Providence be satisfied by what they've done the last two years. No postseason wins, right? I do not believe any schools in the Big East should be satisfied with "0" post seasons for any consecutive stretch of years. Being complacent in that regards could be very detrimental to the long term success of the basketball program. Should its coach be fired? The Coach being fired depends on the goals of the basketball program and its AD. The Friars won the BET last year and Ed Cooley lost by 2pts in the NCAA's to the Tar-heels. This year they lost to Dayton by double-digits in the Tournament. It is hard to argue in Cooley's case that Providence is losing to inferior talent teams in the NIT or NCAA and right now I do not see the program as stagnant. Should something else be done?Ed Cooley has been there 4 years and is an improvement over Keno Davis. Cooley is at Providence, how lofty should there goals be? Making the NCAA Tournament for Coach Cooley should provide him job security. Side Note: When people think of the Big East, 3 schools come to mind: Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns. And whether it is fair or not, these schools are the standard bearers. Do you hold Providence to the same standard as these aforementioned schools?
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Post by bicentennial on Apr 1, 2015 9:18:28 GMT -5
Ultimately despite the name Big East, our league is now equal parts Midwest and East. One of Marquette, Creighton or Butler needs to do well each year. Two to three of GU, VU, StJU, Xavier and Providence need to do well each year. Someday SHU or DU may have a winning season and that would make an extremely competitive league.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 1, 2015 9:23:56 GMT -5
(2) Should Providence be satisfied by what they've done the last two years. No postseason wins, right? Should its coach be fired? Should something else be done? We are talking about the same Providence team that won the 2014 Big East Tournament, right? When does the post-season begin?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 1, 2015 9:31:08 GMT -5
We are talking about the same Providence team that won the 2014 Big East Tournament, right? When does the post-season begin? I was being ironic in my questions....
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 1, 2015 9:40:42 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Big East performance has been very Mid Major-y, but 2 seasons does not a conference make. Jon Rothstein did an hour of CBB talk on WFAN and repeatedly called the Big East a better A10 or AAC, "the East Coast version of the MWC". Ugh. We're better than that but don't have the tournement results and rankings to back it up. This Jon Rothstein? www.sbnation.com/2015/3/30/8306341/5-things-every-fan-should-know-about-the-final-four
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 1, 2015 9:49:06 GMT -5
We are talking about the same Providence team that won the 2014 Big East Tournament, right? When does the post-season begin? I was being ironic in my questions.... careful with irony - the uninitiated sometimes take it and run with it like pyrite
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 1, 2015 10:03:23 GMT -5
We are talking about the same Providence team that won the 2014 Big East Tournament, right? When does the post-season begin? The post-season is the NIT and NCAA's.... The Hoyas made it to the BET Finals in 2010, and people barely remember cause they lost to Ohio in the NCAA's. Does winning the BET carry more weight with you than an NCAA performance?
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 1, 2015 10:28:49 GMT -5
The BET sure as hell carries more weight than the NIT, comparable to NCAA with the advantage of being able to watch the games in person:) Of course I am not all negative about the new league, the future and everything else related to our program. If I were, I would be panicked and delusional like you, not even willing to acknowledge that conference tournaments are "post-season."
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Post by HometownHoya on Apr 1, 2015 10:33:16 GMT -5
We are talking about the same Providence team that won the 2014 Big East Tournament, right? When does the post-season begin? The post-season is the NIT and NCAA's.... The Hoyas made it to the BET Finals in 2010, and people barely remember cause they lost to Ohio in the NCAA's. Does winning the BET carry more weight with you than an NCAA performance?We've had this discussion at least 5 times in the past 12 months. You know this website has a search function and you are NOT Bill O'Reilly. (Although if you are...)
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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 1, 2015 10:34:23 GMT -5
Commissioner Ackerman should have a sit down with DSR and tell him to get his act together, stay in school, take his vitamins, and work hard. That should solve that problem for us.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 1, 2015 12:53:53 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Big East performance has been very Mid Major-y, but 2 seasons does not a conference make. Jon Rothstein did an hour of CBB talk on WFAN and repeatedly called the Big East a better A10 or AAC, "the East Coast version of the MWC". Ugh. We're better than that but don't have the tournement results and rankings to back it up. This Jon Rothstein? www.sbnation.com/2015/3/30/8306341/5-things-every-fan-should-know-about-the-final-fourThis is the greatest blog post ever.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Apr 1, 2015 13:26:41 GMT -5
come on folks the league had great ooc sos and good record and strong sos SOOOOOO keep it going just WIN and they will follow ok?
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