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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 30, 2015 10:59:29 GMT -5
"By the way, Brey has really changed ND's style - goes to show that the only thing keeping GU from becoming a perennial sweet 16 team is the lack of aggression."
Come on! The only thing keeping GU from being a perennial Sweet Sixteen team is lack of aggression? Really? And you use ND as an example, because they're somehow a perennial S16 team having been there now, what, once in the last fifteen years! Twice in the last thirty! Even this year -- in which they supposedly changed their offense so much -- they won their first round game by four over a thirteen seed and their second round game in overtime. In both games, their "more passive" opponents had shots to win or go ahead with less than a minute left in the game. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
There are lots of ways to win -- and win consistently. I didn't think Utah was more aggressive than GU in the least bit. They simply made more of their shots. And Duke has won in this tournament by being decidedly non-aggressive. Anytime they've had a lead of any kind in the second half, they've taken the shot clock down all the way before shooting.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Mar 30, 2015 10:59:49 GMT -5
IMO, Duke is a better team than some on the board give them credit for being. Still hate 'em, though. And no way will I root for UK. Pls give us Wisconsin or the Spartans. I agree, they have something they haven't seemed to have the last few years. Justise Winslow is the key one - doesn't seem like a traditional Duke type.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 30, 2015 11:10:39 GMT -5
As an earlier critic a month or so ago, I have been very impressed with how Duke has played defense in this tournament. They look like a much more determined, but alos competent, team defensively now versus two months ago. Izzo, Pitino, and this year Coach K, just know how to get their team to peak at the right time.
Not sure it is something III can learn, I think it is probably one of the skills or innate abilities that great coaches have that good coaches lack.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 11:24:17 GMT -5
As an earlier critic a month or so ago, I have been very impressed with how Duke has played defense in this tournament. They look like a much more determined, but alos competent, team defensively now versus two months ago. Izzo, Pitino, and this year Coach K, just know how to get their team to peak at the right time. Not sure it is something III can learn, I think it is probably one of the skills or innate abilities that great coaches have that good coaches lack. Izzo and Pitino is a given but Duke lost in the first round to Lehigh and Robert Morris in the last 4 years and they always have a talent advantage… always Izzo especially and Pitino sometimes, not so much
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 30, 2015 11:25:38 GMT -5
Yes, they do a very good job of avoiding stupid fouls and foul trouble, in general. They need to, since their bench is non-existent this year. Zero bench points last night (I think only one shot taken by the bench). But, hell, three of those starters are going in the first round of the draft, and I assume Cook will go in the the second round, if not late 1st. Oh, they're extremely talented. Heck, Calipari is always maligned for his one-and-done ways -- and this year's team features a ton of freshmen -- but Duke starts more freshmen than does Kentucky! It's no shot at III to compare him unfavorably to Coach K! When you have multiple ways to attack defenses in any given game, great coaching, and better talent, you're going to win a whole heck of a lot of times. Could we have beaten them? Sure, if Josh and DSR had huge games and someone else (Ike) played very well. But Okafor would have driven from the perimeter on Josh and that would have led to foul trouble (unless Josh got him in trouble first). We surely don't win more than a game or two in a seven game series. If the HOYAS succeed in bringing in Bracey this September, it will be amazing how much smarter JTIII will get in the next four years. Okafor was a great get for coach K but it was the package deal of two friends on the AAU circuit(Okafor and Jones) that solidified this team. Winslow has been great in this tournament too, but it is Jones the PG that can shoot the 3pt shot, penetrate and finish or dish that makes Coach K look like a genius in most of their games. For whatever reason III has not been able to get that top PG lke a Jones. I think John Wall, in JTIII' mind was the prototype pg for his offense. Wall was very good in this offense mostly because of his deadeye shooting ability, but the idea that a point forward could effectively replace a true PG has been the thing that has kept the team from realizing a lot of its potential. Even if the HOYAS had five guys on the floor who could shoot the 3pt shot in the 35-40 percent range, unless you had a pg that the defense feared could score off the dribble, they would still be defended by their man because the defense ould not collapse.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 30, 2015 11:30:35 GMT -5
"By the way, Brey has really changed ND's style - goes to show that the only thing keeping GU from becoming a perennial sweet 16 team is the lack of aggression." Come on! The only thing keeping GU from being a perennial Sweet Sixteen team is lack of aggression? Really? And you use ND as an example, because they're somehow a perennial S16 team having been there now, what, once in the last fifteen years! Twice in the last thirty! Even this year -- in which they supposedly changed their offense so much -- they won their first round game by four over a thirteen seed and their second round game in overtime. In both games, their "more passive" opponents had shots to win or go ahead with less than a minute left in the game. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. There are lots of ways to win -- and win consistently. I didn't think Utah was more aggressive than GU in the least bit. They simply made more of their shots. And Duke has won in this tournament by being decidedly non-aggressive. Anytime they've had a lead of any kind in the second half, they've taken the shot clock down all the way before shooting. But aleutian -- he TOLD you he knows a ton about basketball. He only wishes he was as dumb as you so he could agree with all of us who know so little about basketball. You don't have to be skilled or have talent or play team ball. You simply need to be aggressive. That's all, dude. That's all.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 30, 2015 11:33:22 GMT -5
As an earlier critic a month or so ago, I have been very impressed with how Duke has played defense in this tournament. They look like a much more determined, but alos competent, team defensively now versus two months ago. Izzo, Pitino, and this year Coach K, just know how to get their team to peak at the right time. Not sure it is something III can learn, I think it is probably one of the skills or innate abilities that great coaches have that good coaches lack. Izzo and Pitino is a given but Duke lost in the first round to Lehigh and Robert Morris in the last 4 years and they always have a talent advantage… always Izzo especially and Pitino sometimes, not so much Yep. Izzo and Pitino overperform in the tourney (or do they underperform in the regular season?). K is simply a great coach, but he's not been immune to upsets. He's done a good job getting his team to come together defensively, but it's not a shock that he's peaking now when several of his best players are elite freshmen. (And before anyone says it... our freshmen were very good at the very end of the season -- but they aren't Winslow and Okafor).
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2015 11:51:00 GMT -5
IMO, Duke is a better team than some on the board give them credit for being. Still hate 'em, though. And no way will I root for UK. Pls give us Wisconsin or the Spartans. I agree, they have something they haven't seemed to have the last few years. Justise Winslow is the key one - doesn't seem like a traditional Duke type. People criticize Duke a lot more because they hate them. I think that's reasonable, but they were one of the top 3-4 teams all season.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2015 11:54:15 GMT -5
Oh, they're extremely talented. Heck, Calipari is always maligned for his one-and-done ways -- and this year's team features a ton of freshmen -- but Duke starts more freshmen than does Kentucky! It's no shot at III to compare him unfavorably to Coach K! When you have multiple ways to attack defenses in any given game, great coaching, and better talent, you're going to win a whole heck of a lot of times. Could we have beaten them? Sure, if Josh and DSR had huge games and someone else (Ike) played very well. But Okafor would have driven from the perimeter on Josh and that would have led to foul trouble (unless Josh got him in trouble first). We surely don't win more than a game or two in a seven game series. If the HOYAS succeed in bringing in Bracey this September, it will be amazing how much smarter JTIII will get in the next four years. Okafor was a great get for coach K but it was the package deal of two friends on the AAU circuit(Okafor and Jones) that solidified this team. Winslow has been great in this tournament too, but it is Jones the PG that can shoot the 3pt shot, penetrate and finish or dish that makes Coach K look like a genius in most of their games. For whatever reason III has not been able to get that top PG lke a Jones. I think John Wall, in JTIII' mind was the prototype pg for his offense. Wall was very good in this offense mostly because of his deadeye shooting ability, but the idea that a point forward could effectively replace a true PG has been the thing that has kept the team from realizing a lot of its potential. Even if the HOYAS had five guys on the floor who could shoot the 3pt shot in the 35-40 percent range, unless you had a pg that the defense feared could score off the dribble, they would still be defended by their man because the defense ould not collapse. I agree. Ty Jones has basically been their MVP. But, to be fair, I dont think Coach K even realized how good he was going to be. Still
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 30, 2015 11:57:58 GMT -5
The thing about Izzo and Pitino also to some extent is that I don't see any amazing tactical or strategic moves that are the magic ingredients in their tournament success. It seems to me to be more about their roster construction and defense-first orientation. Both always have quality starters and depth but do not have teams that are built around one-and-done stars or are overly reliant on one scorer being on fire every game. They always have several athletic bigs who are active defenders and rebounders but not lottery picks so they generally stay around for 3 or 4 years, and they have guards and wings who play solid defense and generally do not turn the ball over much. MSU and Louisville play different styles but both are defense-first teams who are always in every game so they are likely to win when they make their shots.
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dense
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Post by dense on Mar 30, 2015 12:18:20 GMT -5
Did you watch a game this year??? We didn't walk the ball up that much at all. Running sets. ..im sorry but every team is running something. 90% of the teams run the Carolina Break. That's right UNC has an organized fast break. That's running a set. yes i agree, i'm not saying that half-court O isn't a good thing - it's definitely needed. in fact GU isn't fit right now to "run it all the time" - but even within systems you can put pressure on opposition - more than the other team does to you. and yes, GU has done that at times. really understand what i'm saying here. yes, i watched every game and i know a thing or two about basketball, probably too much and i wish i didn't so i could agree with what you said. I don't know what you are trying to say. Half court offense no matter who does it is running a set. If you mean breaking people down off the dribble, the chances to do that are in the offense but it seems that alot of the things that make this offense great are taken away when the player in the post is limited to being only a post. Is that a problem??? Yes and no. I remember when JT3 made the change in how the entry into the offense occurred with hibbert. Have a side dribble entry and have him on the block to try to get it in and create a double. We did that with Josh this year. The problem occurs more on the pinch post entries because the basket area isn't clear for cutters. Jessie will change that.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 30, 2015 12:20:39 GMT -5
Oh, they're extremely talented. Heck, Calipari is always maligned for his one-and-done ways -- and this year's team features a ton of freshmen -- but Duke starts more freshmen than does Kentucky! It's no shot at III to compare him unfavorably to Coach K! When you have multiple ways to attack defenses in any given game, great coaching, and better talent, you're going to win a whole heck of a lot of times. Could we have beaten them? Sure, if Josh and DSR had huge games and someone else (Ike) played very well. But Okafor would have driven from the perimeter on Josh and that would have led to foul trouble (unless Josh got him in trouble first). We surely don't win more than a game or two in a seven game series. If the HOYAS succeed in bringing in Bracey this September, it will be amazing how much smarter JTIII will get in the next four years. Okafor was a great get for coach K but it was the package deal of two friends on the AAU circuit(Okafor and Jones) that solidified this team. Winslow has been great in this tournament too, but it is Jones the PG that can shoot the 3pt shot, penetrate and finish or dish that makes Coach K look like a genius in most of their games. For whatever reason III has not been able to get that top PG lke a Jones. I think John Wall, in JTIII' mind was the prototype pg for his offense. Wall was very good in this offense mostly because of his deadeye shooting ability, but the idea that a point forward could effectively replace a true PG has been the thing that has kept the team from realizing a lot of its potential. Even if the HOYAS had five guys on the floor who could shoot the 3pt shot in the 35-40 percent range, unless you had a pg that the defense feared could score off the dribble, they would still be defended by their man because the defense ould not collapse. Good penetrating guards are great, but if teams are free to help off of other players because of a lack of shooting (see: GU minus DSR) or finishing from bigs (see Mikael), penetrating guards can be effectively defended. Same thing with a talented big surrounded by a poor shooting team (see, e.g., Smith, J.). But surround a talented penetrating guard with two good shooters and even a competent big? Nearly impossible to defend. I'm not disagreeing with you, a talented penetrating guard would be terrific. But the thing about increasing talent is that it exponentially improves the team because the additional good player is good in his own right and your other talented players get more space and time to work. I'm not plowing any new ground with this, but it's still amazing to me how many people (not you) consistently miss it. Sure, Izzo and Pitino consistently seem able to get more from less, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule. I still think the biggest thing this past GU team needed and that next year's team needs is one other guy that can consistently take and make semi-contested threes. Jabril made the uncontested one very well this year, but he only shot it when he was completely unguarded. That's not enough against a good team. No one but DSR would make (or even take) the sort of threes that Duke made last night. Without someone else that can do that, teams are free to help with impunity because if they're competent defensively, they'll still be able to recover fast enough to prevent a good enough look. Having that extra shooter makes the penetrating guard that much more dangerous.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 30, 2015 13:06:05 GMT -5
If the HOYAS succeed in bringing in Bracey this September, it will be amazing how much smarter JTIII will get in the next four years. Okafor was a great get for coach K but it was the package deal of two friends on the AAU circuit(Okafor and Jones) that solidified this team. Winslow has been great in this tournament too, but it is Jones the PG that can shoot the 3pt shot, penetrate and finish or dish that makes Coach K look like a genius in most of their games. For whatever reason III has not been able to get that top PG lke a Jones. I think John Wall, in JTIII' mind was the prototype pg for his offense. Wall was very good in this offense mostly because of his deadeye shooting ability, but the idea that a point forward could effectively replace a true PG has been the thing that has kept the team from realizing a lot of its potential. Even if the HOYAS had five guys on the floor who could shoot the 3pt shot in the 35-40 percent range, unless you had a pg that the defense feared could score off the dribble, they would still be defended by their man because the defense ould not collapse. Good penetrating guards are great, but if teams are free to help off of other players because of a lack of shooting (see: GU minus DSR) or finishing from bigs (see Mikael), penetrating guards can be effectively defended. Same thing with a talented big surrounded by a poor shooting team (see, e.g., Smith, J.). But surround a talented penetrating guard with two good shooters and even a competent big? Nearly impossible to defend. I'm not disagreeing with you, a talented penetrating guard would be terrific. But the thing about increasing talent is that it exponentially improves the team because the additional good player is good in his own right and your other talented players get more space and time to work. I'm not plowing any new ground with this, but it's still amazing to me how many people (not you) consistently miss it. Sure, Izzo and Pitino consistently seem able to get more from less, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule. I still think the biggest thing this past GU team needed and that next year's team needs is one other guy that can consistently take and make semi-contested threes. Jabril made the uncontested one very well this year, but he only shot it when he was completely unguarded. That's not enough against a good team. No one but DSR would make (or even take) the sort of threes that Duke made last night. Without someone else that can do that, teams are free to help with impunity because if they're competent defensively, they'll still be able to recover fast enough to prevent a good enough look. Having that extra shooter makes the penetrating guard that much more dangerous. Very well said...
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 30, 2015 13:14:17 GMT -5
We weren't a great shooting team, but we were far from a poor shooting team. This has been enlightening. Teams are better with good shooters.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 30, 2015 13:30:33 GMT -5
We weren't a great shooting team, but we were far from a poor shooting team. This has been enlightening. Teams are better with good shooters. I said I wasn't plowing any new ground! I'll go even one better in the "Captain Obvious" department, and this was really my point: good offensive teams have (1) one guy that can make a competent one-on-one post move; (2) two guys that can consistently make threes, including one that is a "don't give him any space" type; and (3) one guy (he need not be a guard by the way) that can consistently get into the lane from the perimeter. That leaves one guy that doesn't really bring anything to the table offensively, and that's OK. All the better, by the way, if a single player fits multiple categories. Duke, for example, has multiple players that fit multiple categories. But, in any event, for each category you get, you increase the value of having one of the other categories because space is opened. We simply haven't had very many years when we've had all three covered -- some years (like this year), we've really only had one category.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 13:56:33 GMT -5
Ok I hear people about Guards but is it a coincidence that 3 out of the 4 have at least one Big that’s a definite Lottery Selection?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 30, 2015 14:09:58 GMT -5
Ok I hear people about Guards but is it a coincidence that 3 out of the 4 have at least one Big that’s a definite Lottery Selection? Definitely coincidence. Haven't you heard it's not a Big Man's game any more?
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Mar 30, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5
What they do better than anyone is they don't use their hands on defense. They're physical, but they don't hand-check, and they also infrequently ride players as they're getting beat. Sometimes they pick up (or should pick up) cheap over-aggression fouls. But they nearly never pick up those absurd "you had two hands on the guy so we're going to call a foul even though you weren't pushing him or affecting the play at all" fouls. We pick up those -- and the "riding the guy after he gets by you" fouls all the time. Good post.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 30, 2015 14:27:52 GMT -5
We weren't a great shooting team, but we were far from a poor shooting team. This has been enlightening. Teams are better with good shooters. Why is your scale so large Spirit? Saying G'town wasn't "great" but "far" from poor leaves a lot of room in the middle.. This was a below average shooting team, even the 34.5% they shot from 3 is misleading imo because guys like Cope & Trawick didn't take a lot.. Only DSR broke 100 attempts for the year, in JT3's system that shouldn't happen.. Go back to the 2011-12 season, that team had 2(Clark & Thompson).. Starks had 98 that year.. Side note.. Hollis only taking 135 was an absolute shame.. Very under utilized player..
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 30, 2015 14:28:18 GMT -5
Ok I hear people about Guards but is it a coincidence that 3 out of the 4 have at least one Big that’s a definite Lottery Selection? Definitely coincidence. Haven't you heard it's not a Big Man's game any more? /falls down //ref calls a charge
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