SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 21, 2015 12:47:25 GMT -5
The phrasing used was "wasn't as bad as people thought." Not quite sure how that translates to good. The offense ranked 44th, once you adjust for the defenses we played. 44th of 350 is good in general, but it's not good for Georgetown, since I think even the easiest grader of us expects to be a Top 25 team. What Sleepy was mentioning is that it was surprisingly comparable to Georgetown offenses from Chris and Austin's senior year, the Sims year and actually better than Porter's sophomore year. And this is true. For all the handicaps put on the team, people also don't remember that DSR and Markel were very good -- basically a decent analogue for Chris and Austin their senior year. Trawick was pretty good. It wasn't a pretty offense, but it was decent. I think that Austin/Chris/Hollis team was better on offense but by less than most think. I think we have more weapons this year, so hopefully we start scoring better and get back to an offense that was truly strong -- 2010 was the last one. Statistically, the players that are holding us back are a regression from Hopkins and some mediocrity from Peak. (In BE play, White and Bowen have also come down a bit). If Peak can progress and Hopkins can just get back to last year, the offense will be pretty good. Markel was pulling off such amazing moves towards the end of his time here, I think it kind of gets overlooked sometimes because of how disappointing last season was. He had me wondering at times if he was the best guard at creating his own shot that JTIII has ever had here. Granted, kind of a low bar, and Wright and Freeman had more scoring options on the team, but Markel's crossover, and ability to get to the rim were pretty damn good. That crossover, and jumper against Louisville his junior year...... yikes. He had that "drive down the side just outside the paint, then pull up for the jumper along the baseline" down pat. Level of consistency was up there with J Wall's super high off the backboard layup. It was like they had practiced those shots a hundred thousand times.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 21, 2015 13:08:26 GMT -5
I think coaching, continuity, player improvement all can play a key role in addition to personnel changes. That said, when you look at 2011-2012, with a great defense...and then that turned into 2012-2013, which was an awful defense. The personnel is practically identical except for Porter. 2012 had Whit for the non-conference and 2013 had Smith for the non-conference, but that didn't affect the yearly numbers (defense actually got better without Whit for other reasons; defense actually got worse without Smith). So you had DSR, Trawick, Hopkins, Starks, etc., all one year better on D. But without Porter, it completely collapsed. Some of that was the rule change, but I think it's also clear that Porter held that defense together. Why do you think Thompson is a weak defensive coach? You're off by a year there I think 11-12 and 12-13 were great defenses and then 14 was the terrible year. But that doesn't change your point. And I agree to an extent. Porter was an elite defender and I think losing him was a huge factor in our terrible defense, but I think III could have and should have done a better job at adjusting to our personnel. And I should clarify, I don't think III is a weak defensive coach. Sometimes he is really great and makes excellent decisions and, imo, it is the area that he has made the greatest improvements in. When I say suspect I guess I mean it is an area that I think he is the most inconsistent in and where I question him the most. Compared to the other 300+ coaches in college basketball he is certainly not weak, he is probably very good. I just don't think coaching defense comes as naturally to him and where he is most prone to make questionable decisions. Also, almost every non-big man we have ever had has shown little to no growth in the area of defensive basics and abiding by simple defensive principles. A small thing no doubt, but one of things that always keeps me skeptical. When your "defensive stopper" who is a fifth year senior this year (Bowen), doesn't know you have to see your man and the ball in key defensive possessions, it should raise some eyebrows. Sleepy, with regard to your last point - there is a significant difference between Bowen not KNOWING it vs. not EXECUTING it. That may help explain why Aaron sometimes gets fewer minutes than many feel he should.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Jan 21, 2015 13:21:42 GMT -5
I don't care about their record or RPI, at Marquette is always a tough game. The Eagles are winless in four road games, but they are 8-2 at home including a win over Providence, one of their two top 50 RPI wins (other was Tennessee). They also just gave Xavier a tough game at their place, leading by double digits early before falling by 4. It'll be interesting to see what they do at St. John's tonight.
Our tight home win against them a few weeks ago was particularly nervewracking. Are we a different team now, a true Big East title contender, or are we the same up and down team we were prior to last weekend? We'll see. These are the games that champions win. I think this game may tell us as much about this team as the Nova game, if not more. And of course we haven't won at Marquette since J-Wall's heroics in 2008, so there's that.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 21, 2015 13:27:21 GMT -5
You're off by a year there I think 11-12 and 12-13 were great defenses and then 14 was the terrible year. But that doesn't change your point. And I agree to an extent. Porter was an elite defender and I think losing him was a huge factor in our terrible defense, but I think III could have and should have done a better job at adjusting to our personnel. And I should clarify, I don't think III is a weak defensive coach. Sometimes he is really great and makes excellent decisions and, imo, it is the area that he has made the greatest improvements in. When I say suspect I guess I mean it is an area that I think he is the most inconsistent in and where I question him the most. Compared to the other 300+ coaches in college basketball he is certainly not weak, he is probably very good. I just don't think coaching defense comes as naturally to him and where he is most prone to make questionable decisions. Also, almost every non-big man we have ever had has shown little to no growth in the area of defensive basics and abiding by simple defensive principles. A small thing no doubt, but one of things that always keeps me skeptical. When your "defensive stopper" who is a fifth year senior this year (Bowen), doesn't know you have to see your man and the ball in key defensive possessions, it should raise some eyebrows. Sleepy, with regard to your last point - there is a significant difference between Bowen not KNOWING it vs. not EXECUTING it. That may help explain why Aaron sometimes gets fewer minutes than many feel he should. But my point isn't that JTIII doesn't know enough to teach players that specific and extremely basic principle. It is that he uses the guy that consistently, over 4 years, has show he doesn't execute basic defensive principles effectively in key defensive possessions. He considers him a good defender and puts him on the opposing teams best players, and while he can be very disruptive at that end, he has zero discipline defensively and it burns us. And Bowen is just one example in a decade long of questionable defensive decisions. But that doesn't mean he hasn't also made great decisions defensively or that the bad outweighs the good. The good certainly outweighs the bad I'm just pointing out my critiques.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 21, 2015 13:27:40 GMT -5
Markel was pulling off such amazing moves towards the end of his time here, I think it kind of gets overlooked sometimes because of how disappointing last season was. He had me wondering at times if he was the best guard at creating his own shot that JTIII has ever had here. Granted, kind of a low bar, and Wright and Freeman had more scoring options on the team, but Markel's crossover, and ability to get to the rim were pretty damn good. That crossover, and jumper against Louisville his junior year...... yikes. He had that "drive down the side just outside the paint, then pull up for the jumper along the baseline" down pat. Level of consistency was up there with J Wall's super high off the backboard layup. It was like they had practiced those shots a hundred thousand times. SF, I don't think that shot was ever even contested. The hard dribble to the left and quick pull up for the J would leave the defender stumbling. He cleared so much space with that move. Man if Kel was 1 yr younger this team would be FF material..........but I digress.....smh
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Jan 21, 2015 16:07:52 GMT -5
These are the games that champions win. I think this game may tell us as much about this team as the Nova game, if not more. And of course we haven't won at Marquette since J-Wall's heroics in 2008, so there's that. I couldn't agree more. Getting a second BE road win in a venue that has been particularly hostile will tell me a lot more than beating a Top 5 archrival at home. It was a foregone conclusion that we'd bring our A game on Monday. Let's do it again. Would really like to see some semblance of a functioning offensive system against a zone.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 21, 2015 17:04:51 GMT -5
Not to go all "throw the stats out the window" here, but one thing to keep in mind about Marquette's stats is that they include an entire non-conference schedule without Fischer and consequently KenPom's Marquette is worse than the team we are facing because KenPom's Marquette didn't have Fischer for most of its games, whereas the team we are facing has Fischer. I think we all know that having a starting center and not having a starting center makes a big difference.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 21, 2015 17:46:14 GMT -5
Actually, Luke Fischer played four non-conference games before the start of the Big East schedule, and has played in nine of Marquette's seventeen games. He has only played more than 28 minutes in three of his nine games so far, and has faced foul trouble in almost every game; four fouls against Alabama A&M, DePaul, Providence and Georgetown, and three fouls against Arizona State, North Dakota, Creighton and Xavier. He can't physically contest and keep Joshua Smith away from the basket, if we get the ball inside. While Fischer will get his points (he has a very soft touch), we have no excuse for not getting him in foul trouble. This is where the entry pass from the elbow, from either Paul White or Isaac Copeland, can help break down the zone and eliminate Marquette's interior defense.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 21, 2015 17:57:00 GMT -5
Actually, Luke Fischer played four non-conference games before the start of the Big East schedule, and has played in nine of Marquette's seventeen games. He has only played more than 28 minutes in three of his nine games so far, and has faced foul trouble in almost every game; four fouls against Alabama A&M, DePaul, Providence and Georgetown, and three fouls against Arizona State, North Dakota, Creighton and Xavier. He can't physically contest and keep Joshua Smith away from the basket, if we get the ball inside. While Fischer will get his points (he has a very soft touch), we have no excuse for not getting him in foul trouble. This is where the entry pass from the elbow, from either Paul White or Isaac Copeland, can help break down the zone and eliminate Marquette's interior defense. Yeah, so he's Josh Smith from last year--I didn't say he was Anthony Davis. Marquette didn't have him for half their games, which means that their stats are not as reflective of the team we are playing on Saturday as they would normally be.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Jan 21, 2015 18:10:07 GMT -5
I agree with whoever said that the Marquette at St. Johns matchup tonight will tell us a lot--although St. Johns has been the worst home team in the BE so far.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 21, 2015 18:23:12 GMT -5
The Johnnies are in desperation mode and have to get a win. Would be shocked if they can't win this one. If they lose, they could implode as a team.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 21, 2015 18:32:27 GMT -5
Actually, Luke Fischer played four non-conference games before the start of the Big East schedule, and has played in nine of Marquette's seventeen games. He has only played more than 28 minutes in three of his nine games so far, and has faced foul trouble in almost every game; four fouls against Alabama A&M, DePaul, Providence and Georgetown, and three fouls against Arizona State, North Dakota, Creighton and Xavier. He can't physically contest and keep Joshua Smith away from the basket, if we get the ball inside. While Fischer will get his points (he has a very soft touch), we have no excuse for not getting him in foul trouble. This is where the entry pass from the elbow, from either Paul White or Isaac Copeland, can help break down the zone and eliminate Marquette's interior defense. Yeah, so he's Josh Smith from last year--I didn't say he was Anthony Davis. Marquette didn't have him for half their games, which means that their stats are not as reflective of the team we are playing on Saturday as they would normally be. Njhoya wanted to argue over the statement that with only 10 teams there are fewer nights during the week with BE games, which is a bad thing if you like watching BE games. So I am not surprised by this. I think anything is fair game!
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 21, 2015 18:37:02 GMT -5
Njhoya just is looking to provide a little context. This is not worth arguing over.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jan 21, 2015 18:45:53 GMT -5
Not to go all "throw the stats out the window" here, but one thing to keep in mind about Marquette's stats is that they include an entire non-conference schedule without Fischer and consequently KenPom's Marquette is worse than the team we are facing because KenPom's Marquette didn't have Fischer for most of its games, whereas the team we are facing has Fischer. I think we all know that having a starting center and not having a starting center makes a big difference. Luckily Kenpom has the handy conference only check box you can click. Their Ortg and Def Rtg are actually worse in conference than on the year as a whole. A lot of that is the uptick in competition, but Marquette hasn't been noticeably better in conference than they were preconference at least statistically. Perhaps they're dropping off less than is normally expected with the move to conference play, but I cannot speak to that. Def FG% improves from 48.9 to 47.0 but offensive eFG% goes down from 51.7 to 48.6. They're turning the ball over more and turning other teams over less, They're grabbing more offensive boards and giving up slightly less boards defensively, They're drawing less fouls and fouling more. 3pt % is down, but defense of 3 is up, Same thing from 2, Shooting better from the FT line and even on defense. Getting blocked more often and blocking less shots, Stealing more, but having it stolen from more. Their defense is 1st in a lot of categories when looking within the conference at conference games only, but their offense is rated 10th in just as many categories. Funnily enough in the exact same categories. It's freaky. 10th in offense efficiency 1st in defensive, 10th in turnover %, but 1st in turnovers forced, 10th in FTA/FGA, but 1st in not fouling 9th in having the ball stolen and 1st in stealing it. What a weird weird team.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 21, 2015 21:21:10 GMT -5
MUST WIN yup and theyll be mad just blew it to st johns and have at least three losses i thinks GO HOYA sit on carlino SIT ON CARLINO nuf said will be tough yup VERY tough out there..
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 21, 2015 21:23:23 GMT -5
These are the games that champions win. I think this game may tell us as much about this team as the Nova game, if not more. And of course we haven't won at Marquette since J-Wall's heroics in 2008, so there's that. I couldn't agree more. Getting a second BE road win in a venue that has been particularly hostile will tell me a lot more than beating a Top 5 archrival at home. It was a foregone conclusion that we'd bring our A game on Monday. Let's do it again. Would really like to see some semblance of a functioning offensive system against a zone. I think the more White and Copeland progress and are able to play together, the less a zone will bother our team. We also have to make the bunnies -- I've seen a lot of pretty good looks against the zone in the past few games, a lot more than earlier in the season, but sometimes it's hard to tell the zone offense is improving because guys miss from 4 feet and in. Make the chippies, and keep getting the ball to the frosh in the high post, and I think we will be making teams choose between two poisons when they defend us. I hope the young guns are ready for this on Saturday -- while a work in progress, I think they will be, from what I've seen of them lately. I especially like Ike's ability to shoot, pass or glide in for the layup from the foul line with that long stride and long arms of his.
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aristides
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Post by aristides on Jan 21, 2015 21:56:01 GMT -5
While watching the Marquette-St. John's game, FS1 cut to the Marquette huddle as they were down. I can't help but compare JT3 to Wojo as Wojo is yelling at his players to play with more energy. JT3's demeanor and professional composure has so much more presence and authority than Wojo's frenetic emoting. If I was a Marquette player, I think the yelling would start to turn to white noise.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 21, 2015 22:31:49 GMT -5
It's a must win because Maruqette's RPI is so low at below 113. Losing to them will really hurt our RPI.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 22, 2015 6:55:24 GMT -5
Must be ready after lost to johnnies will be even tougher at home. Stop that three point guy COLD jabrilly maybe?? aaron STOP HIM go hoyas BIG GAME
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 22, 2015 7:58:01 GMT -5
I watched Marquette last night and, if it is possible, Count Chocula's bastard child is more annoying as a coach than he was as a player.
I restate my hope that he takes an errant pass in the teeth.
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