TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 11, 2014 11:20:46 GMT -5
I'd say you're wrong and that the people complaining have some other belief in opposition here given that none of the people objecting in this thread have stated any form of support for Eric Garner. "Can't Breathe" seems to me to be a no-brainer to me. I'm not sure how it's a controversial stance that police officers shouldn't use illegal restraints or be above a grand jury indictment in a case where the evidence is so clear cut. I'm not even sure why wearing the shirt is newsworthy. I'm not opposed to the players wearing shirts saying I can't breathe. Cops shouldn't use illegal tactics and I hope the family sues them. But if he follows the law and doesn't resist would he still be alive today? Why aren't athletes wearing shirts that says follow the law? 1) Having the city pay the family isn't the same as punishing the person who did this. Nor is it an effective deterrent to future abuses. 2) If the cop had followed proper procedure (ie not putting Garner in a chokehold against police regulations), I'm pretty sure Garner would be alive today. Maybe the team should have worn shirts saying "follow police procedure".
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Dec 11, 2014 11:23:57 GMT -5
Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion. It amazes me that people who claim to be conservative are OK with armed agents of the state immediately using deadly force at the first whiff of "resisting arrest" a crime with possibly the lowest threshold of all time. In my opinion the Staten Island case should have gone to trial and the indictment granted. I do not believe that a court or field is the appropriate venue to express an opinion. I disagree with the narrative that is being propagated by the media. There seems to be no intent to find the truth. One of the important questions that need to be answered is whether the police officer profiled the suspect and treated him the way he did because of race. This question is not being answered. Was the police officer's behavior based on racism? We may never get the answer. There are many aspects to the events that are not being discussed. The black African American sergeant and the hispanic officers who oversaw taking him into custody did not order a change in course (for the poster who laughed that she wouldnt that is not the case). A choke hold is against NYPD policy and, as such, you can be placed on probation and/or lose your job. It is not illegal. Ask a police officer how many times a suspect will state he can't breath or claim orthopaedic trauma only to use the reduction in force applied to try and get away. You cannot derive context from a video.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 11, 2014 11:28:33 GMT -5
"Cops shouldn't use illegal tactics and I hope the family sues them..."
Here's the problem with that....when the city pays off someone wronged...they city/police don't pay ANY PRICE. WE DO. The cops don't give a fig if the taxpayers have to fork over a few million bucks to some victim's family.
That money has to come from police pension funds. Talk about deterrence. Why should they be not only above the law in terms of criminal courts but also have the rest of society pay their civil losses? WHERE IS THE DETERRENCE?
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Dec 11, 2014 11:28:48 GMT -5
In the US in 2012 approximately 130 blacks were killed by gunfire from white police officers. In the same year approximately 330 whites were killed by gunfire from white police officers. Taking into account the number of black to white citizen in the USA there clearly is not an epidemic of police white on black killings yet the media wants to portray the current state as such.
Whatever your opinion I still feel that the field, court, boardroom, operating room is not the place to hold discourse. I would rather our student-athletes use the classroom.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 11, 2014 11:34:44 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. Yea, I understand the "venue" argument. Slate has an interview with the departing ESPN ombudsman where he makes this exact point: many sports fans don't want ESPN to do 'real,' investigative, critical journalism because they use sports as an escape from the issues and conflicts of the real world: Insofar as athletes aren't constantly showing up wearing political statements, I would say that as a rule they also agree that it's not a proper venue. Similarly, freeways are generally agreed to not be the proper venue in which to exercise freedom of assembly. If a situation is judged to be extraordinary, though, and if the proper venues appear to be failing (like when elected representatives appear totally feckless, if not outright hostile), then venues that are usually off-limits start opening up as a potential avenue for communicating discontent.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 11, 2014 11:43:22 GMT -5
In the US in 2012 approximately 130 blacks were killed by gunfire from white police officers. In the same year approximately 330 whites were killed by gunfire from white police officers. Taking into account the number of black to white citizen in the USA there clearly is not an epidemic of police white on black killings yet the media wants to portray the current state as such. Whatever your opinion I still feel that the field, court, boardroom, operating room is not the place to hold discourse. I would rather our student-athletes use the classroom. I've always maintained that the main problem is agressive policing period, the racial component is just that- a component of the larger problem that cops are too agressive even in cases when they never touch or reach for their holster. Every single one of us knows that every single day in this country hundreds of people are arrested or excessively cited/fined/ticketed for the "crime" of pi$$ing off a cop and nothing else.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 11, 2014 11:47:04 GMT -5
I could not be more proud of the way JT3 and the players expressed themselves last night and contributed to the national conversation of this important issue in a thoughtful and intelligent manner. This was not some reactionary stunt to try and gain attention for themselves. The fact they took the time to discuss this subject at length with each other, acknowledged the different points of view and reactions and went forward with the decision should be commended by everyone regardless of their personal feelings. Just from the soundbites of our players and coach on this subject, you can hear the thoughtful nature of this action versus some of the more reactionary takes by professional athletes. If you are going to do this, do it the right way, and boy, did they ever.
Also, the elder Thompson is 100% correct. There is no more proper time or place for these young men to think about these types of difficult social issues. School is a time for personal growth and I want them to feel encouraged to confront complicated, complex issues.
Frankly, I have not been more proud of my alma mater in a long time. This is what a University, especially as a private university, should be encouraging. There is no better time or place to do it and if Georgetown can contribute to a thoughtful discussion, I would welcome it.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 11, 2014 11:48:35 GMT -5
I remember the Hoyas wearing green ribbons back in 1981 during the Atlanta child murders. I remember Big John walking out of a couple of games in opposition to Prop 48. The world did not spin off its axis then and will not now.
JTIII made sure his players could articulate the why of wearing the shirts and it appears it was a team decision to do so. The young men interviewed gave cogent thoughtful reasons for their choice. For that the University community should be proud.
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 11, 2014 11:50:31 GMT -5
In the US in 2012 approximately 130 blacks were killed by gunfire from white police officers. In the same year approximately 330 whites were killed by gunfire from white police officers. Taking into account the number of black to white citizen in the USA there clearly is not an epidemic of police white on black killings yet the media wants to portray the current state as such. Whatever your opinion I still feel that the field, court, boardroom, operating room is not the place to hold discourse. I would rather our student-athletes use the classroom. Your first point is a great one. This is becoming more then police violence on blacks, it is police violence in general. Unfortunately the media has their stories they like to push and it is currently violence against blacks. This could be a good thing though because through the civil rights movement, although it started out a black movement, it ended as a color blind movement. As far as where is the right place to hold this discussion, I agree the court is not the right place. But thats not what they did. They had this discussion on campus, in the class room, in the film room and decided to make a public STATEMENT. That is all this was, a statement. They saved their discussion for off the court. They didn't take the mic pregame and make a big speech. They didn't wear the shirts the whole game, it was during warm-ups to make a statement and increase discussion in other places then their locker room.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 11, 2014 11:51:08 GMT -5
It amazes me that people who claim to be conservative are OK with armed agents of the state immediately using deadly force at the first whiff of "resisting arrest" a crime with possibly the lowest threshold of all time. In my opinion the Staten Island case should have gone to trial and the indictment granted. I do not believe that a court or field is the appropriate venue to express an opinion. I disagree with the narrative that is being propagated by the media. There seems to be no intent to find the truth. One of the important questions that need to be answered is whether the police officer profiled the suspect and treated him the way he did because of race. This question is not being answered. Was the police officer's behavior based on racism? We may never get the answer. There are many aspects to the events that are not being discussed. The black African American sergeant and the hispanic officers who oversaw taking him into custody did not order a change in course (for the poster who laughed that she wouldnt that is not the case). A choke hold is against NYPD policy and, as such, you can be placed on probation and/or lose your job. It is not illegal. Ask a police officer how many times a suspect will state he can't breath or claim orthopaedic trauma only to use the reduction in force applied to try and get away. You cannot derive context from a video. As a Black man myself, I can tell you straight off that not all black or minority officers are good cops.. Some are as shady and as judgmental as some white police officers.. Just sayin.. So your insinuation that the minority officers didn't witness any wrong doing and if they did they would have stopped it is off base imho.. Also how were they to know the officer was going to use a choke hold on the man? Choke holds are illegal btw, putting someone in a choke hold is assault.. Once the altercation starts there are very very few officers black, white, blue, yellow or green who are going to take up against a team member while they're in the midst of a struggle with a suspect.. Cops are drilled to take up for each other..
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 11, 2014 11:53:13 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. Yea, I understand the "venue" argument. Slate has an interview with the departing ESPN ombudsman where he makes this exact point: many sports fans don't want ESPN to do 'real,' investigative, critical journalism because they use sports as an escape from the issues and conflicts of the real world: Insofar as athletes aren't constantly showing up wearing political statements, I would say that as a rule they also agree that it's not a proper venue. Similarly, freeways are generally agreed to not be the proper venue in which to exercise freedom of assembly. If a situation is judged to be extraordinary, though, and if the proper venues appear to be failing (like when elected representatives appear totally feckless, if not outright hostile), then venues that are usually off-limits start opening up as a potential avenue for communicating discontent. I reject the premise (underlying most of the discussion) that a college basketball venue is an inappropriate venue for a display of controversial opinions. I can understand (though I similarly disagree with) that sentiment in a professional context. There, unlike here, athletes are paid to entertain and any expression of opinion risks alienating their customer. But here, if you believe the players' chief obligation is to entertain you, you misapprehend the purpose of collegiate athletics. I am not naive. I understand many people do so misapprehend or simply don't care. But athletics as a part of education is at the core of the Georgetown structure. And part of education is learning about society, forming one's own views, and expressing them. The court, in this proper context, is simply an extension of the classroom. Surely, part of expressing your views in a public way is understanding that others are free (indeed, should be encouraged) to disagree and express the disagreement. The players seem to understand that, as well. Count me firmly in the "proud" category. I would not want to be part of a group that discouraged these students from providing their thoughtful opinions.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Dec 11, 2014 12:53:27 GMT -5
In the US in 2012 approximately 130 blacks were killed by gunfire from white police officers. In the same year approximately 330 whites were killed by gunfire from white police officers. Taking into account the number of black to white citizen in the USA there clearly is not an epidemic of police white on black killings yet the media wants to portray the current state as such. Whatever your opinion I still feel that the field, court, boardroom, operating room is not the place to hold discourse. I would rather our student-athletes use the classroom. Whites have 5 times the population in this country that blacks do. Yet blacks account for 40% of the number of deaths as whites. That means they are 2.5 times over represented by population. How you translated that into clearly not an epidemic is beyond me.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 11, 2014 13:32:23 GMT -5
I have a hard time criticizing people for having an opinion about important matters and wanting to talk about it, especially in a manner that is not primarily done to generate cashflow (i.e. paid political pundits).
Athletes are people, too. They get to say things. I'm glad they are thinking and talking.
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on Dec 11, 2014 13:33:28 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. Yea, I understand the "venue" argument. Slate has an interview with the departing ESPN ombudsman where he makes this exact point: many sports fans don't want ESPN to do 'real,' investigative, critical journalism because they use sports as an escape from the issues and conflicts of the real world: Insofar as athletes aren't constantly showing up wearing political statements, I would say that as a rule they also agree that it's not a proper venue. Similarly, freeways are generally agreed to not be the proper venue in which to exercise freedom of assembly. If a situation is judged to be extraordinary, though, and if the proper venues appear to be failing (like when elected representatives appear totally feckless, if not outright hostile), then venues that are usually off-limits start opening up as a potential avenue for communicating discontent. This made me think...did FS1's broadcast show or mention the shirts at all? I watched on DVR fast-forwarding commercials so may have missed it going into or out of a break, but I don't think they did. Even though it took place during warm-ups, they could have easily found a moment to cover it. Not saying their decision not to was right or wrong, but interesting to note nonetheless. Of course, if they had shown it, they wouldn't have had the thoughtful explanations from the players/coach that came later...
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 11, 2014 13:53:30 GMT -5
This made me think...did FS1's broadcast show or mention the shirts at all? They led off the post-game show with it.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Dec 11, 2014 14:06:11 GMT -5
It amazes me that people who claim to be conservative are OK with armed agents of the state immediately using deadly force at the first whiff of "resisting arrest" a crime with possibly the lowest threshold of all time. In my opinion the Staten Island case should have gone to trial and the indictment granted. I do not believe that a court or field is the appropriate venue to express an opinion. I disagree with the narrative that is being propagated by the media. There seems to be no intent to find the truth. One of the important questions that need to be answered is whether the police officer profiled the suspect and treated him the way he did because of race. This question is not being answered. Was the police officer's behavior based on racism? We may never get the answer. There are many aspects to the events that are not being discussed. The black African American sergeant and the hispanic officers who oversaw taking him into custody did not order a change in course (for the poster who laughed that she wouldnt that is not the case). A choke hold is against NYPD policy and, as such, you can be placed on probation and/or lose your job. It is not illegal. Ask a police officer how many times a suspect will state he can't breath or claim orthopaedic trauma only to use the reduction in force applied to try and get away. You cannot derive context from a video. Eric Garner knew the police officers as in the video he states, I am tired of you guys always harassing me. This ends today....at the time Eric Garner did not realize how true those words would be. Can someone answer this question: I do wonder if it was 5 African-American officers seen on tape involved in the chocking of a Caucasian civilian, if the "Grand Jury" would have taken this case to trial?
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whatmaroon
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Post by whatmaroon on Dec 11, 2014 15:03:10 GMT -5
Respect for JT3 and the players in the way they handled it, making a considered decision with some actual thought behind it. As always, the underlying issues are just a tad more complicated than a slogan on a T-shirt, but I had no issues with wearing the shirts.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 11, 2014 15:42:45 GMT -5
And argue all you want about circumstances, which may or may not be relevant to whether the office is found guilty of a crime, but its stunning that he wasn't indicted for something when the coroner declared it a homicide and the procedure used was one banned by the police.
Seriously, anyone worried about big government that isn't also really worried about a police force that has no qualms using excess force enforcing all the stupid government regulations because they won't be punished is missing something. And good for the team for doing their part. Some of the players grew up in the kinds of neighborhoods where this isn't an academic issue.... It's heartening to see that Georgetown basketball is still the kind of program that is about more than just basketball. Hopefully this helps our society address some of these issues, if only in a small way. Excellent post Tbird. Did anyone even know that "selling a few loose cigarettes" is even a crime? In NYC? THey had a half dozen cops around this one guy for the serious crime of selling loose cigarettes? They weren't even marijuana cigarettes. "Resisting arrest"? He was standing there incredulous the cops were hassling him about such a minor offense. Really? Loose cigarettes? C'mon man. Just leave me be. And for that he ends up dead. And remember, we are not talking about the outcome of a jury trial. We are talking about not even getting an indictment despite the two points t-bird made above. The DAs work closely with the cops all year 'round. Someone else needs to handle these grandjuries when it comes down to alledged police misconduct. There is no way an unarmed and innocent man trying to scramble together a few bucks by selling a couple of cigarettes should end up dead and it never even goes to trial. Completely unacceptable.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Dec 11, 2014 17:10:42 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with student-athletes being interested in current events and taking a stand. Plus, freedom of speech is a pillar of our democracy. On the other hand, I don't necessarily like the slogans used recently to protest (Can't Breathe, or Hands Up; don't shoot), and I don't like the sensationalist and biased coverage by most media outlets. The accepted theme is cops are racist, violent thugs, and as someone who has worked in many different law enforcement positions and venues, I find it dishonest and inflammatory. It also encourages disobedience and violence directed at law enforcement. The Rams players, and our players, claimed they're not taking sides but those slogans are very clear in their anti-law enforcement stance.
The NY case and the Ferguson cases are completely different. One has video of a departmental violation, and the other has neither. If you weren't actually there to witness the incident, or you're not an expert on use of force case law, and you've never worked as a law enforcement officer in a dangerous position, I find it hard to believe you're qualified to comment on police use of force in general. The ongoing theme promoted by the media would dispute this, but from my first-hand experiences in the past two decades police use of excessive force has declined dramatically. In fact, police in many cities are afraid to use any force due to the expected backlash and damage to their careers, even if the force was legal and justified. Police are mostly underpaid, underappreciated, and always second guessed by the media and "community activists." People just don't understand how difficult it is to make split-second, life or death decisions in the middle of an adrenaline-filled violent encounter. I have been in several of these situations personally, and unless you've been in that situation you just don't understand what it's like. Luckily, I made the decision not to shoot and it turned out to be the right decision. Interestingly enough, if you had asked me immediately after those situations what race the suspect was, I couldn't have told you. I remember every detail of those situations like it was yesterday (the weather, the clothes the suspect was wearing, the house, the neighborhood, his dog, my colleagues, what his hands were doing, etc.) but I couldn't tell you what race they were. And that's why it makes me so angry to hear people accuse these cops of being racist, because I can assure you that every cop in the middle of a life and death violent encounter is not thinking at all about the race of the guy attacking him.
That being said, there are definitely bad cops out there. Just like every profession or cross-section of society, there will be decent/honest individuals and those who aren't. Due to stringent background checks, psychological checks, polygraphs, and intense scrutiny, my personal opinion is that law enforcement has much fewer bad eggs than most professions. Believe me, those in law enforcement want the bad eggs removed more than anyone. But contrary to popular belief, you actually need evidence to prosecute someone which is why the Ferguson case did not result in an indictment. Case law and every law enforcement agency's use of force policy supports using deadly force when a large, violent individual attacks you and tries to take your gun (Which may or may not have been the case in Ferguson). The bottom line is no one will get hurt if you don't attack a cop. In the NY case, both the suspect and the officer were at fault. The fact he was selling illegal cigarettes (a minor crime) is a red herring. The original reason he was stopped is irrelevant; the suspect escalated the situation by refusing lawful commands of the officers and initiating a physical altercation. However, the officer was definitely at fault for using an unapproved control technique.
Again, I support the decision of our players to exercise their rights and take a stand on an important issue. It's just disappointing to me personally to see the manner in which they took that stand. In my opinion, it promotes stereotyping of law enforcement and encourages more distrust between cops and the community.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 11, 2014 17:32:27 GMT -5
I also applaud the posters here for having a rational, respectful discussion about this encompassing multiple nuanced positions about the issue.
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