Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 11, 2014 7:59:23 GMT -5
I think the team members who spoke on the topic were eloquent, thoughtful and expressed their reasoning in a manner for which they are to be commended.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Dec 11, 2014 8:30:19 GMT -5
Not really Georgetown's faculties and alums are some of the most well-known liberal politicians. School has always had more left wing sentiment than the right while I was there. Georgetown is an academic institution and students have right to express their opinions. I think it gets on the softer side when student athletes do it, rather than the professional players. I didn't realize only liberals and left wingers thought choking someone to death is tragic. I always knew Bush was a liberal. Same with Fox News, bunch of left wingers.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Dec 11, 2014 8:38:01 GMT -5
Wow!! I'd rather they worry about winning games, make the top 25, play well enough to motivate fans to go to the game, those sorts of things. JT3's dad had more if a platform because his teams were better . Let's win some games against decent teams and then worry about taking stands for social justice causes... Literally speechless. So in your opinion making the top 25 and winning games is more important than taking a stand for something they believe in? You do recall that these are Georgetown students right? Men and women for others? Or does that not ring any bells?
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Post by matersammich on Dec 11, 2014 8:43:53 GMT -5
I'm proud of them. It obviously meant a great deal to them to make a statement. They are students, don't lose sight of that.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Dec 11, 2014 8:54:00 GMT -5
Should his past matter? Did the cops know about it? You say that he was resisting arrest, but nothing about the cops continuing to apply pressure while he was complaining.. Ha Ha @ mentioning a black officer being there. Do you think she was going to stop them? If you want to be really cynical, this got positive press on the front page of ESPN and is undoubtedly a net plus for recruiting. Besides that, its great to see student-athletes take a stand on something they believe in. And frankly, believing in not choking people to death for selling loose cigarettes isn't particularly controversial. Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Dec 11, 2014 9:34:35 GMT -5
I'm waiting for an athlete to wear a shirt saying when a cop says you are under arrest don't resist. Then we will see who really believes in free speech. Yeah all the people who call them ignorant will be exercising their free speech.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 11, 2014 9:51:40 GMT -5
Should his past matter? Did the cops know about it? You say that he was resisting arrest, but nothing about the cops continuing to apply pressure while he was complaining.. Ha Ha @ mentioning a black officer being there. Do you think she was going to stop them? Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion. Say what you will about this case, or the Ferguson case, but the fact that neither produced an indictment (and police violence rarely does) is not a good thing, and one that should trouble everyone. I'm coming at this from a conservative prospective (check the Blue & Grey board)--Police are generally good people doing a tough job. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be accountable for their actions/performance (a comparison b/w teachers and police is a good one, I think). If anything, the nature of their job demands that they are accountable to the law for their actions so that communities will trust that the police are on their side. And argue all you want about circumstances, which may or may not be relevant to whether the office is found guilty of a crime, but its stunning that he wasn't indicted for something when the coroner declared it a homicide and the procedure used was one banned by the police. Seriously, anyone worried about big government that isn't also really worried about a police force that has no qualms using excess force enforcing all the stupid government regulations because they won't be punished is missing something. And good for the team for doing their part. Some of the players grew up in the kinds of neighborhoods where this isn't an academic issue. I'm pretty sure Jabril's from a rough part of Philly (apologies if I got this wrong), not sure about the other guys on the team. Just to use Jabril as an example--we all love Jabril and love his toughness--you don't think he's thought about what the police might do to him if he's in the wrong place at the wrong time (say, breaking up a fight, like Eric Garner was)? You don't think he should use whatever platform he has to speak out on this? It's heartening to see that Georgetown basketball is still the kind of program that is about more than just basketball. Hopefully this helps our society address some of these issues, if only in a small way.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 11, 2014 9:59:38 GMT -5
I was very proud of the fact that they did this. They're young men who are allowed to have thoughts and opinions, and the idea that every athlete needs to check their humanity at the door and become an automaton lest they cause a "distraction" is always disheartening. But it would be even more so for us, as a program that has had a long history of dealing with racism. Everyone knows JT Jr. would have said something about it. I'm glad we're still that kind of program.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 11, 2014 10:01:25 GMT -5
So you don't disagree with the young men taking a stance, you just believe this particular stance is an unjust one...understood. Clearly you support Free Speech. It's not my fight, I am not taking sides. But athletes are choosing as is their right to side with the young men who died. IF someone wore a shirt supporting the police my guess is all the free speechers would all of a sudden have a different view of those expressing their view. And IF someone wore a shirt supporting the Confederate States of America, much less something like Bashar al-Assad or the Nazis, people would react very differently to that as well. Shocker: not all messages are perceived equally. What's clear is that this particular message - which transcends the specific cases of Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, etc. - has resonated with a large number of people. Particularly people belonging to the same demographic as the majority of college basketball players. I think it behooves folks - especially those who don't understand why the team would make such a statement - to really interrogate why that is. I would submit that, irrespective of how one feels about those specific cases or about American policing practices regarding use of force as a whole, 'shut up and just entertain me' is not a reflective take on the matter. Not at a university, and especially not at this University. I'm heartened that many people, from all across the political spectrum, seem to agree.
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deacon
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Post by deacon on Dec 11, 2014 10:19:49 GMT -5
If you want to be really cynical, this got positive press on the front page of ESPN and is undoubtedly a net plus for recruiting. Besides that, its great to see student-athletes take a stand on something they believe in. And frankly, believing in not choking people to death for selling loose cigarettes isn't particularly controversial. Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion. What part of illegal chokehold don't you understand? He could have been selling kilos of cocaine in broad daylight and had a rap sheet a mile long, the coroner ruled his death a homicide and a police officer is seen clear as day ON VIDEOTAPE using a chokehold deemed illegal by the NYPD while Eric Garner can be heard repeatedly saying, "I can't breathe." We can have different opinions, but we can't have different facts and those are facts. Now please tell us again why we seem to be missing the bigger picture here.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 11, 2014 10:31:42 GMT -5
Also, I love that JT3 made sure the players were thinking, rather than reacting, before they did this.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Dec 11, 2014 10:35:12 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 11, 2014 10:39:03 GMT -5
If you want to be really cynical, this got positive press on the front page of ESPN and is undoubtedly a net plus for recruiting. Besides that, its great to see student-athletes take a stand on something they believe in. And frankly, believing in not choking people to death for selling loose cigarettes isn't particularly controversial. Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion. Oh I think loose cigarettes are "part of the narrative," just not in the way that you think they are. But hey, I guess if a cop wants to shoot me for an Idaho stop on my bike, or jay walking, or breaching the terms of service on software, we can rest easy knowing that I was a criminal.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 11, 2014 10:41:18 GMT -5
If you want to be really cynical, this got positive press on the front page of ESPN and is undoubtedly a net plus for recruiting. Besides that, its great to see student-athletes take a stand on something they believe in. And frankly, believing in not choking people to death for selling loose cigarettes isn't particularly controversial. Veritas vos Liberat Unfortunately the media that continues to perpetuate the narrative has no interest in the truth. Loose cigarettes is part of the narrative. Resisting arrest, two prior felonies and the fact that a black female sergeant was on the scene overseeing the events did not order a change in procedure are not part of the narrative. No on is interested in asking questions just drawing conclusions. Opinion is fine provided that it is a means to an end - the truth. As an alumnus I am not in favor of the team, who are representatives of the University, using the game to express opinion. It amazes me that people who claim to be conservative are OK with armed agents of the state immediately using deadly force at the first whiff of "resisting arrest" a crime with possibly the lowest threshold of all time.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 11, 2014 10:43:05 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. So "political correctness" is defined (per google) as "the avoidance...of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against." The "this isn't the proper venue" crowd seems to be espousing "the avoidance...of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people" who don't agree with the message of that expression or action. Why does one materially differ from the other?
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 11, 2014 10:43:37 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. I'd say you're wrong and that the people complaining have some other belief in opposition here given that none of the people objecting in this thread have stated any form of support for Eric Garner. "Can't Breathe" seems to me to be a no-brainer to me. I'm not sure how it's a controversial stance that police officers shouldn't use illegal restraints or be above a grand jury indictment in a case where the evidence is so clear cut. I'm not even sure why wearing the shirt is newsworthy.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 11, 2014 10:44:11 GMT -5
".....Seriously, anyone worried about big government that isn't also really worried about a police force that has no qualms using excess force enforcing all the stupid government regulations because they won't be punished is missing something."
THIS. TIMES A MILLION. Conservatives should stop being reactionary and take a good look at how a highly aggressive and increasingly militarized police force is in direct contravention of their core political beliefs about big government and personal liberty.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Dec 11, 2014 10:57:05 GMT -5
I'd say people who are complaining about I can't breathe shirts are saying this isn't the proper venue. But it wouldn't be PC for people to point out the fact the grand jury declined to pursue this nor would it be PC to point out you don't get to choose to not be arrested. There is guilt on both sides but only one side of the story gets the spotlight. I'd say you're wrong and that the people complaining have some other belief in opposition here given that none of the people objecting in this thread have stated any form of support for Eric Garner. "Can't Breathe" seems to me to be a no-brainer to me. I'm not sure how it's a controversial stance that police officers shouldn't use illegal restraints or be above a grand jury indictment in a case where the evidence is so clear cut. I'm not even sure why wearing the shirt is newsworthy. I'm not opposed to the players wearing shirts saying I can't breathe. Cops shouldn't use illegal tactics and I hope the family sues them. But if he follows the law and doesn't resist would he still be alive today? Why aren't athletes wearing shirts that says follow the law?
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 11, 2014 11:08:26 GMT -5
The New York Daily News reported the other day that in almost 200 instances of allegations of police brutality in New York City over the past fifteen years, only three officers were indicted, openly one was convicted, and he was not sent to jail. There is an inherent problem with having local prosecutors and district attorneys made responsible for prosecution of these cases, because the very targets they are investigating are members of the same force that are crucial witnesses in separate prosecutions. The system can't work that way. New York State is now considering utilization of a separate state appointed prosecutor to handle those cases.
There is something very troubling about the undercurrent of anger that is apparent in these protests, that have expanded from Ferguson to New York to Chicago to Oakland, etc., etc., etc. Those of us who are not minorities on this board cannot pretend that we have a full understanding as to relations between law enforcement and the community, but it is apparent that the tensions are far greater than we can properly appreciate. As a society we have to do better.
I join the chorus of voices here who are proud of the manner in which this team carried itself with its support of the families, and the eloquence demonstrated by Joshua Smith and D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera in explaining their actions. They represent Georgetown, and all for which Georgetown stands, in an exemplary manner.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 11, 2014 11:15:51 GMT -5
The New York Daily News reported the other day that in almost 200 instances of allegations of police brutality in New York City over the past fifteen years, only three officers were indicted, openly one was convicted, and he was not sent to jail. There is an inherent problem with having local prosecutors and district attorneys made responsible for prosecution of these cases, because the very targets they are investigating are members of the same force that are crucial witnesses in separate prosecutions. The system can't work that way. New York State is now considering utilization of a separate state appointed prosecutor to handle those cases. There is something very troubling about the undercurrent of anger that is apparent in these protests, that have expanded from Ferguson to New York to Chicago to Oakland, etc., etc., etc. Those of us who are not minorities on this board cannot pretend that we have a full understanding as to relations between law enforcement and the community, but it is apparent that the tensions are far greater than we can properly appreciate. As a society we have to do better. I join the chorus of voices here who are proud of the manner in which this team carried itself with its support of the families, and the eloquence demonstrated by Joshua Smith and D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera in explaining their actions. They represent Georgetown, and all for which Georgetown stands, in an exemplary manner. Considering the anger at the police is building in the communities that most need an effective police force that they trust, it's really not a good sign. The people in the poorest, most violent neighborhoods shouldn't have to worry about the police being on their side. And they aren't going to be able to build safe communities without the police, but why should they work with them / trust them when the police seem to have free reign to kill or abuse them without consequence? And while most police officers don't abuse their position, allowing the bad ones to go unpunished taints all of them.
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