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Post by RockawayHoya on Nov 28, 2014 16:36:43 GMT -5
It matters if Butler ends up tanking the rest of the year. Northeastern mattered. I think Butler will be better this year, but they are by no means a lock for the NCAAs even after a great weekend in the Bahamas. You can certainly cost yourself a bid in November, but only going by my eye test (which isn't a lot), I don't think the Butler loss will be crippling to a tournament resume in the long run.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 28, 2014 16:42:50 GMT -5
I agree Spirit.. Paul at the 3, Ike at the 4 & LJ at the 2 is what I want to see a lot more of.. Peak needs to get it together to deserve minutes. He was horrible today, and has done little since the opener. Not this argument again.. I agree LJ was bad today but he's a freshman he needs time.. I already know what Jabril is as a player and he has a role on the team, same goes for Hop and Aaron.. However I now want to see what the youngsters can be in more featured roles..
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 28, 2014 16:43:14 GMT -5
The development of the freshmen should really give Coach the basis to make it crystal clear that minutes will go to the guys who work the hardest and produce. Slack off for a breath and you can sit and watch the others play.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Nov 28, 2014 16:44:47 GMT -5
It matters if Butler ends up tanking the rest of the year. Northeastern mattered. I think Butler will be better this year, but they are by no means a lock for the NCAAs even after a great weekend in the Bahamas. You can certainly cost yourself a bid in November, but only going by my eye test (which isn't a lot), I don't think the Butler loss will be crippling to a tournament resume in the long run. Especially given that we get Butler twice more, despite losing to them early in the season, if we can follow it up with a win, it ends up as a draw and neither adds nor subtracts from our tourney resume.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 28, 2014 16:45:42 GMT -5
The biggest problem with that play was the absence of a deep safety valve; at the last second White tried to lob it out to Josh but could not get it there. A poorly designed play. That was the safety valve that Paul White threw too. But he didn't look to notice that Dunham had moved over to the safety valve. Paul White should have called time out in that situation but like I said inexperience led to a potential 5 point swing. We are going to have to live with that early on if we are going to play freshmen major minutes. That was the only turnover for Paul White in the entire game, according to the box score. The timing stunk, but the Hoyas have a multi-generational history of bad inbounds play design and execution going back to the eighties.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 28, 2014 16:47:41 GMT -5
That was the safety valve that Paul White threw too. But he didn't look to notice that Dunham had moved over to the safety valve. Paul White should have called time out in that situation but like I said inexperience led to a potential 5 point swing. We are going to have to live with that early on if we are going to play freshmen major minutes. That was the only turnover for Paul White in the entire game, according to the box score. The timing stunk, but the Hoyas have a multi-generational history of bad inbounds play design and execution going back to the eighties. The correct move is for Paul White to call a timeout. Freshman mistake, no need to blame the coach.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 28, 2014 16:49:34 GMT -5
Peak needs to get it together to deserve minutes. He was horrible today, and has done little since the opener. Not this argument again.. I agree LJ was bad today but he's a freshman he needs time.. I already know what Jabril is as a player and he has a role on the team, same goes for Hop and Aaron.. However I now want to see what the youngsters can be in more featured roles.. All I meant was that nobody - including Trawick, Bowen, Hopkins AND Peak - should now get minutes if they don't produce. Of course LJ is a frosh and we can expect inconsistency - but we need production to earn minutes, not just potential. I do think Peak will develop and can be a big factor. But in big games, we need big play.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Nov 28, 2014 16:59:06 GMT -5
No need to focus on one player today as the cause of this loss. Everyone not named Copeland was up and down. It was the entire team. Going forward, I would consider going with DSR, Peak and White as the starting backcourt and try to work Copeland into the 4 spot with Hopkins providing relief at both the 4-5. Jabril and Bowen can bring intensity and energy off the bench. Reggie has got to get going as there is no one other than DSR who currently scares opposing guards and this is allowing them to collapse around Smith. For all the criticism of Bowen, Hopkins and Jabril that I am reading, it took lapses everywhere to earn this loss. Smith shot very poorly on both FTs and from the field. DSR was off and Peak was a non-factor. The point is that they were not ready to play and it showed. Hopefully they learned from this but if not it will continue like a bad dream because talent alone does not win games.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 28, 2014 17:01:51 GMT -5
Yea but as long as it's another Big East team, it doesn't matter to me. Being the story in Novemeber means nothing as far as individual teams are concerned. All that should matter to us is doing something in March. We didn't hurt our chances of making the tournament today, so as far as I'm concerned this is just a Novemeber loss, pretty meaningless. I generally agree with most of what you post on here, and agree that all that matters is March, but I don't understand how you can say that we didn't hurt our chances of making the tournament today. These November games really matter for that purpose. We have basically 5 games against notable competition out of the conference season and we just lost one of them. That's really bad. Hopefully we will have a great season and today won't matter at all, but based on past experience it very much could matter. Because we are going to play Butler twice more. We have two more chances to make if up even if it's a "bad loss" (which I don't think it will be) and I'd rather lose to them OOC. This was never going to be a "signature win" so we didn't lose an opportunity there. Is the tournament committee going to care about a neutral court win or loss against Butler than they would against Creighton or Providence? I see this as a conference loss that doesn't even count against us in conference. Not a big deal. Yesterday was really a worse loss as if was a missed opportunity.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Nov 28, 2014 17:02:09 GMT -5
Right. This was a team bust, not an individual one. I don't have any idea what it means about Butler, because we were so hideously sloppy and lackadaisical on defense that we would have lost or been at risk of losing to even the DePauls and 2014 Marquettes and 2012 FGCUs of the world today. You can't have this many turnovers and defensive breakdowns in transition and not be in real trouble. We basically spotted Butler a dozen points.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 28, 2014 17:04:50 GMT -5
There are plenty of "teaching moments" to which JT3 can refer out of this game. If the players learn from the numerous mistakes that cost them this game, it will be worth it.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Nov 28, 2014 17:07:30 GMT -5
Yea but as long as it's another Big East team, it doesn't matter to me. Being the story in Novemeber means nothing as far as individual teams are concerned. All that should matter to us is doing something in March. We didn't hurt our chances of making the tournament today, so as far as I'm concerned this is just a Novemeber loss, pretty meaningless. I generally agree with most of what you post on here, and agree that all that matters is March, but I don't understand how you can say that we didn't hurt our chances of making the tournament today. These November games really matter for that purpose. We have basically 5 games against notable competition out of the conference season and we just lost one of them. That's really bad. Hopefully we will have a great season and today won't matter at all, but based on past experience it very much could matter. I think last years team showed that if you deserve to make the tourney, you'll find a way to get in. If you don't, you'll lose to DePaul in the first round of the BET. I think that's why you can't make too much of the 6th game of the season.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Nov 28, 2014 17:09:19 GMT -5
Peak needs to get it together to deserve minutes. He was horrible today, and has done little since the opener. FF, I know you are frustrated, but to say Peak has done little since the opener just is not true. He has contributed. He didn't play well today. All I meant was that nobody - including Trawick, Bowen, Hopkins AND Peak - should now get minutes if they don't produce. Of course LJ is a frosh and we can expect inconsistency - but we need production to earn minutes, not just potential. I do think Peak will develop and can be a big factor. But in big games, we need big play. You got your wish. III only gave Peak 14 mins today. The others were more effective. They got the minutes.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 28, 2014 17:17:47 GMT -5
Right. This was a team bust, not an individual one. I don't have any idea what it means about Butler, because we were so hideously sloppy and lackadaisical on defense that we would have lost or been at risk of losing to even the DePauls and 2014 Marquettes and 2012 FGCUs of the world today. You can't have this many turnovers and defensive breakdowns in transition and not be in real trouble. We basically spotted Butler a dozen points. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Besides free throw shooting, I thought everyone played ok to good. I thought Bowen was absolutely terrible and the difference maker in this game. He ended five straight possessions in the first half with either a turnover, missed layup, or missed free throws. He seemed to be responsible for those 4 wide open layup after we scored. Then that horrible missed layup. And they were all huge momentum plays. Why he was in there so much I have no idea. He was just terrible. Without him we win going away IMO.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 28, 2014 17:23:25 GMT -5
Right. This was a team bust, not an individual one. I don't have any idea what it means about Butler, because we were so hideously sloppy and lackadaisical on defense that we would have lost or been at risk of losing to even the DePauls and 2014 Marquettes and 2012 FGCUs of the world today. You can't have this many turnovers and defensive breakdowns in transition and not be in real trouble. We basically spotted Butler a dozen points. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Besides free throw shooting, I thought everyone played ok to good. I thought Bowen was absolutely terrible and the difference maker in this game. He ended five straight possessions in the first half with either a turnover, missed layup, or missed free throws. He seemed to be responsible for those 4 wide open layup after we scored. Then that horrible missed layup. And they were all huge momentum plays. Why he was in there so much I have no idea. He was just terrible. Without him we win going away IMO. Bril was not very good. Hop's bad moments outweighed his good. Peak was a negative. A number of guys were not "OK to good". But hopefully everyone steps it up at practice and we just get better and better.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 28, 2014 17:23:52 GMT -5
Peak needs to get it together to deserve minutes. He was horrible today, and has done little since the opener. FF, I know you are frustrated, but to say Peak has done little since the opener just is not true. He has contributed. He didn't play well today. All I meant was that nobody - including Trawick, Bowen, Hopkins AND Peak - should now get minutes if they don't produce. Of course LJ is a frosh and we can expect inconsistency - but we need production to earn minutes, not just potential. I do think Peak will develop and can be a big factor. But in big games, we need big play. You got your wish. III only gave Peak 14 mins today. The others were more effective. They got the minutes. Everyone was worshipping Peak in the early games and treating Copeland like an afterthought. Soon as Peak has a couple bad offensive games, it's put him in the dustbin and move on to the next favorite son. These guys are all freshman so they are going to have their ups and downs. No need to bash one to prop up the other.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 28, 2014 17:25:32 GMT -5
Right. This was a team bust, not an individual one. I don't have any idea what it means about Butler, because we were so hideously sloppy and lackadaisical on defense that we would have lost or been at risk of losing to even the DePauls and 2014 Marquettes and 2012 FGCUs of the world today. You can't have this many turnovers and defensive breakdowns in transition and not be in real trouble. We basically spotted Butler a dozen points. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Besides free throw shooting, I thought everyone played ok to good. I thought Bowen was absolutely terrible and the difference maker in this game. He ended five straight possessions in the first half with either a turnover, missed layup, or missed free throws. He seemed to be responsible for those 4 wide open layup after we scored. Then that horrible missed layup. And they were all huge momentum plays. Why he was in there so much I have no idea. He was just terrible. Without him we win going away IMO. Yeah Bowen was really awful. Pointing fingers at the streaking opponent on a fast break is not playing defense. Had an off game.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 28, 2014 17:30:48 GMT -5
FF, I know you are frustrated, but to say Peak has done little since the opener just is not true. He has contributed. He didn't play well today. You got your wish. III only gave Peak 14 mins today. The others were more effective. They got the minutes. Everyone was worshipping Peak in the early games and treating Copeland like an afterthought. Soon as Peak has a couple bad offensive games, it's put him in the dustbin and move on to the next favorite son. These guys are all freshman so they are going to have their ups and downs. No need to bash one to prop up the other. No one has put Peak in the "dustbin". His production has dropped. One thing about this year's squad - with more potential options, getting minutes will change game by game depending on who is effective, ad well as on matchups.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 28, 2014 17:31:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Besides free throw shooting, I thought everyone played ok to good. I thought Bowen was absolutely terrible and the difference maker in this game. He ended five straight possessions in the first half with either a turnover, missed layup, or missed free throws. He seemed to be responsible for those 4 wide open layup after we scored. Then that horrible missed layup. And they were all huge momentum plays. Why he was in there so much I have no idea. He was just terrible. Without him we win going away IMO. Bril was not very good. Hop's bad moments outweighed his good. Peak was a negative. A number of guys were not "OK to good". But hopefully everyone steps it up at practice and we just get better and better. Trawick was ok and Hopkins was ok for Hopkins. I wouldn't say either really cost us, and certainly not peak who barely played. None of them were terrible, compared to what you can expect for them. Bowen, on the other had, cost us nearly 20 points on things that aren't even excusable for freshman.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Nov 28, 2014 17:48:00 GMT -5
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