the post that gets rdf's stripes reduced...

[ron]

i was checking out hoyasaxa.com, as though i don't venture over much anymore, its always home, and i stumbled upon a rdf post that im my eyes, reduces him in rank. now the minny hatin rdf has always been bombastic with his commentary (the minny-based, white stephen a...hahahahah), but this particular post takes the case. i'm actually questioning if the dude has lost his marbles. rdf, is everything ok?

after seeing deandre thomas once, on tv, in an allstar game, he doesn't like the guys game, and projects him to be an ill fit in the gtown program (basketball-wise). he says that the cat is out of shape, and never passed. fine, there is nothing wrong in not liking a player. my issues with you are:

1) how can you speak with such certainty, after seeing him play in 1 all-star game, on tv? is that a real place to evaluate a kid?

2) this statement rdf buddy, is assinine...."The Chicago Public league is one of the most overrated places for talent in Country". Why, becuase you say so? if that was the case, why do so many colleges recruit there? the problem is with eligibility, not basketball skill/ability. stop making things up to justify your opinion.

3) again, a nonsensical, conclusive statement born from no fact....."Thomas has spoken of teams who were interested in him, but he's been more interested in them, then vice versa. ". really, why do you say that? he and his coach told me that arizona and ncstate have picked up their recruitment of the kid. he has/will have visited gtown (upcoming) kan and ill. the latter two have schollie issues, so maybe you extrapolated from this, to arrive at your conclusion. stop.

4) "Thomas wouldn't start at Chicago State and that's reality.". shut up. nuff said.

again, you can not like a kid's skills, hustle, body type...whatever. but don't invent things to justify your feelings, which were developed by watching an all-star game. newsflash...outside of some dunks, jeff didn't beast when he played in the local jordan game last year, and look what he did during the season. i've known you through this boards for years now. don't go out like that.

i await your onslaught.

[MCIGuy]

Rare visit from my main man Ron.

But in defense of my main man RDF let me point out that RDF has his own contacts too and has been proven to be right on these issues from time to time. He may not be correct about this player but his opinions (not all of which he tries to pass off as fact) are just as valid. Frankly it gave me pause when he wrote what he did about Thomas and I have admittedly soured on the kid. But it would have also given me pause if you had wrote an equally negative report, Ron. Whose words do I trust more? Well, I don't try to favor one over the other. Still I will say that like myself, Ron, you are of the school of not tearing down high school kids despite the flaws in their games. You keep it real and you keep it honest about their capabilities. But you soften the blow and always leave that door open concerning their potential to get better. RDF is a "tad" more cold blooded and direct and brutal in his criticism. Its his style and it works for him. Especially when he's singing the truth about KG. ;D

Besides...we all know Chicago players are overrated. Just like New York players.

See ya on the "other" board.

[ron]

hahahaha. you are rightr, i never publish something that tears a kid down. they are children for crying out loud. but that's not my point. it was the justifications for his downgrading of the kid i took/take issue with. if he doesn't like deandre thomas...so be it. but to downgrade chitown ball (though he was was the chicago area mr. basketball...which includes their private schools), and first team all state would make that criticism, even if not nonsensical, moot.

its not that rdf doesn't like the kid, its the justifications he fished for, in attempting to strength his argument. wouldn't play for chicago state? are you kidding me?

[Gold Hoya]

actually Julian Wright from Homewood Flossmor HS was the Illinois Mr Basketball tinyurl.com/5rwxf. Thomas was among the top 5.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Hey ron, welcome back! I answered you over on HR.com but I'd definitely be up for some KL action this summer. Don't know if DFW will be in the neighborhood; he tends to come up for a football game or two on-campus but not usually during the summer....

In any event, it'll be good to watch the games with a credentialed member on Press Row! LOL! hahaha

[GUHoya07]

Gold said:

actually Julian Wright from Homewood Flossmor HS was the Illinois Mr Basketball tinyurl.com/5rwxf. Thomas was among the top 5.

I dont know much about this, but Ron said "Chicago Area Mr. Basketball", not Illinois Mr. Basketball.

[RDF]

Ron, there won't be an onslaught towards you, but MCI spoke to a lot of the reasons why I feel as if I do. MCI and JerseyHoya are quite familiar with some of the people I do associate with and I'm able to speak with them on a level that talks to their TRUE FEELINGS on players and word on Thomas hasn't been very glowing. He's a kid, and while I was harsh, it's nothing worse than anything I've actually seen on people that play for the Hoyas posted on this site.

As for my reasons for taking him to task, it's a known FACT that I've checked with people I know and trust and was backed up by an Illinois fan who frequents our site that:

1. Illini had ZERO interest in Thomas--he mentioned them not vice versa. They have room for him if they want, but they're not interested.

2. KU gave their opening to a Walk On and according to Thomas he was their first choice if "room opened up". With Alex Galindo leaving--room opened and what happened?

3. I look at all angles of recruiting--and why would Kansas need a frontcourt project at the PF position? They've got plenty of bigs now and can recruit top talent, why reach for a project??

4. I saw Thomas on television and it's been re-aired many times. I've got firsthand accounts of his game from people who've seen him since Summer up until now and they all say the same thing--Hoyas can do better and he'd not factor in.

5. Chicago Public League is overrated--Living in Midwest I've seen many of their games over the years. It's very average basketball and usually is proven to be so come State Tournament time in Illinois as well. Better players in state play outside of the Public League and while they've produced some solid College Players, it's not nearly as tough as what you've made it to be. I'll rest my case on the fact that DeAndre Thomas was Player of the Year and he's about 40--50 lbs overweight and can't even get up and down the court. IF that's your player of the Year how good is the league?

6. Have you seen Thomas play at all or talked to anyone who's not in the business of helping DeAndre Thomas get a scholarship?? His coach is doing what any Coach will/should do--try to help a youngster. DeAndre is doing what most kids do--exaggerate the truth a bit. Nothing wrong with that at all, but just because you talk to these people doesn't mean they know more than those who've seen him--seen him over time and have comparisons to other players in his class. The people I know and have an objective point of view have all said the same thing: He's a project at best. He's about 6'6 and weighs 300+ lbs, doesn't hustle, isn't a good rebounder, can't play defnese and doesnt' give an effort to do so and often doesn't even try when not getting the basketball.

With that said, would you want that on Hoyas?

I understand you interview prospects for Carlos's site and I think you guys do a great job. I've read some of your past work and it's outstanding. In those interviews it should be clear that you get the "sunshine" version of players for the most part and dont' get the whole story. I don't judge players myself until I see them, but I do take into account what I've been told by those who do scout for a living and have been very accurate in past. They might not like guys I do after seeing them and we often disagree but in this case I back what they told me and will not backdown one bit. I've seen the likes of Ronnie Fields, Nick Irvin, Rashard Griffith, Thomas Hamilton, Lowell Hamilton, Marcus Liberty, Jamie Brandon, and while some of those made okay college players most sum up the CPL quite well. Talent is there but for whatever reason the whole package never comes around to develop. When I think of Chicago Basketball, I think of Sean Dockery and I was one of the few people who ripped on Duke's recruiting class (called Dockery and Shavlik Randolph Busts befor they even played a College Game--ask MCI for verification on that) simply because I don't find that competition to be a good prep for Big Time Basketball. There are exceptions and when a player like Luther Head comes around, or Michael Wright at Arizona, I praise them. Same with a Quentin Richardson or Bobby Simmons.

As a Hoya fan who follows recruiting, I try to share thoughts from those who see these kids more consistently than I do and my point of view, because the board knows I'm not going to lie about someone--I want best players to help out GU. For instance Jessan Gray-Ashley, the JC player GU is recruiting, is from Davenport, IA and I've seen him play personally and he is not a Big East caliber player--not even close. Most I spoke to had no clue why Indiana signed him and I don't want GU making a mistake and signing him. Thomas has gotten a lot of hype lately which has been a "Stretch" of truth. I found that out from sources who would know as much/more than his coach and him--they speak with KU, Illinois Staff and know who's on their radar and who's not. You speak with kids and their Coaches and story isn't always 100% honest they tell.

If Thomas becomes an All American and great player I'll eat my crow and if it's with Hoyas, I'll be more than happy to do so, but I like my chances in this debate. I want GU to be best they can be, and last thing I want to see is someone who isn't capable of helping talk his way into a scholarship. If he runs pickup with our guys on visit, I'll bet he can't get up and down the court more than 4 times in a row without being gassed. He's terribly out of shape and his other skills aren't good enough to take a chance on him. If he was 6'10, it might be different, but 6'6 no way.

Disagreements are fine and this site has many people who don't agree with or like my opinion and that's cool. I like hearing others outlooks and points of view. Your feelings are different on this, cool but if you want to call me out and question me, better know the entire story and not just what you think/read. If you want to know who I speak with or how I know this, feel free to PM me, but don't assume I didn't do my homework which I did and then when I saw him--not only did I agree, I'm hoping like hell we don't offer him. He'd make Derrick Patterson look like Alonzo Mourning.

[ron]

2007, he was the chitown player of the year, not mr illinois.

rdf,

again, its not that you don't like the kid's skills., its the reasons you used for not liking him. they were manufactured and bogus in my opinion. and they were based on what i measure as bull. you personally saw an all-star game, on tv, in which he didn't do as well as you would like. and from that , you slammed him. people were doing the same to jeff green last year. point is, for the vitrol you kicked, an all-star game eval doesn't arm you with enrough information to say a guy would be a total bust. it really kind of calls into question just how many of these kids you see in high school. bet you those same ballyoed scouts you refer to (the ever present non-descript evaluators of talent that never admit when they are wrong, and always trumpet when they are right), said jeff green was an okay propspect during his senior season, and then jumped on the bandwagon later.

with jessan gray, i could accept your position far more readily, as you have actually seen the guy play, in high school or aau. the distinction between the two guys, and your evaluation of both should be clear.

i have seen thomas play, aau, and i have questions about his game. hell, i have questions on all of the gtown recruits...that's the nature of the recruits the program must recruit. gtown is not at the point where 1-and-doners are looking to attend.

did your super-scouts also say the guy wouldn't be able to play at chicago state? is that a reasoned analysis that you are just passing on?

again, its not that you don't like the guy, its that you slammed him, when imo you don't really know enough to. i wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. case in point spann. he didn't have a good commonwealth classic. but how in the hell can i base an evaluation on a performance, in that setting? to do so would be ridiculous.

maybe i only know what i think i read. but what i read was hyperbolic, and symptomatic , imo, of a guy that doesn't like a kid, and want's to create a case against him; a case that might be hard to put together, based on a lack of information. volumnious...yes. fact filled and reasoned, no.

[ron]

wanted to acknowledge your post. you know how we do it...summertime in the stands, running our mouths with other fans and checking out the tombs.

this year should be pretty dag-on interesting. especially if the talent level returns to last years level (which it should, or possibly exceed)

[RDF]

ron said:

2007, he was the chitown player of the year, not mr illinois.

rdf,

again, its not that you don't like the kid's skills., its the reasons you used for not liking him. they were manufactured and bogus in my opinion. and they were based on what i measure as bull. you personally saw an all-star game, on tv, in which he didn't do as well as you would like. and from that , you slammed him. people were doing the same to jeff green last year. point is, for the vitrol you kicked, an all-star game eval doesn't arm you with enrough information to say a guy would be a total bust. it really kind of calls into question just how many of these kids you see in high school. bet you those same ballyoed scouts you refer to (the ever present non-descript evaluators of talent that never admit when they are wrong, and always trumpet when they are right), said jeff green was an okay propspect during his senior season, and then jumped on the bandwagon later.

with jessan gray, i could accept your position far more readily, as you have actually seen the guy play, in high school or aau. the distinction between the two guys, and your evaluation of both should be clear.

i have seen thomas play, aau, and i have questions about his game. hell, i have questions on all of the gtown recruits...that's the nature of the recruits the program must recruit. gtown is not at the point where 1-and-doners are looking to attend.

did your super-scouts also say the guy wouldn't be able to play at chicago state? is that a reasoned analysis that you are just passing on?

again, its not that you don't like the guy, its that you slammed him, when imo you don't really know enough to. i wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. case in point spann. he didn't have a good commonwealth classic. but how in the hell can i base an evaluation on a performance, in that setting? to do so would be ridiculous.

maybe i only know what i think i read. but what i read was hyperbolic, and symptomatic , imo, of a guy that doesn't like a kid, and want's to create a case against him; a case that might be hard to put together, based on a lack of information. volumnious...yes. fact filled and reasoned, no.

Ron, it doesn't matter what my "Tone" is about this. I have the right just like anyone to voice my opinion and when it includes those of a player we're targeting and I have info from those who know about and have seen him play AAU, HS Ball, and at Camps, why wouldn't I listen to them?? Then I see the guy and their reports sure didn't seem wrong--they were dead on about him.

I dont' view All Star Games looking for great performances, I look for ability and upside. Can the guy realistically compete in Big East? Doe his game translate to College Level? Those are issues I think are important and matter. Not how many points, boards, etc....

Just don't understand who you think you are telling me or anyone else how we have to speak? Unless you run this site, I don't have to listen to you or change anything about how I talk, evaluate, or share info. I didn't say one thing in the post that wasn't true. Maybe you didn't like my opinion, but what about actual info I posted was not a FACT---Illinois and KU didn't want him, he's overweight and out of shape, he doesn't bring a lot to table in terms of being a contributor at the highest level of D1 basketball.

My comments on Chicago Public League were my opinion but I listed players and instances where they were some of the most storied players in that League's history and most people probably have no clue who 90% of that list is---which backs up my point quite well. Heck most people identify Kevin Garnett with Chicago Public League and don't realize he's from South Carolina. Politics and exploitation lead to a lot of problems in that league, but most of the prospects are vastly overrated and end up with Jimmy Collins at Illinois Chicago. Not many kids from that league even get looks from Big 10 schools and DePaul has gone away from recruiting that league as well. If they aren't good enough to play at DePaul--who will be in Big East with Hoyas, why would GU want a kid from there- and you so proudly pointed out the "Player of the Year". I was player of the year in my league and if Hoyas would've recruited me I'd have told them not to because I am a Hoya fan and want them to win. If you are king of a mediocre/bad conference, who cares?? If we were talking about Quentin Richardson or that type of player, I'd be for it--we're not.

So like anything in life that is optional, if you don't like it, dont' read/watch/listen to it. But don't be so egotistical that you think you can come on and tell another person what/what not to say/talk about. I'm still waiting to see Marcus Hatten blow up in NBA from our last disagreement and amazingly you caught a bad case of "disappearance flu" instead of eating crow on that one. I'm always ready to stand up and eat it when I am wrong, so if I am again, it's going to be no different. Just dont' act holier than thou as if the sun only shines in your rear. Wanna call me out, fine but you better come with something a lot stronger than the crap you tend to throw out there--first Hatten and now this junk.

[IlliniNYC]

I can tell you that RDF is right on with Thomas. And sadly, his commentary on the Public League, while further than I would go, is reasonable.

For all of the hype around players coming out of the CPL, there is just not a relatively high number that have a great deal of success at the high major college level. There are a number of guys who Illinois has looked at and who are among the better players in the CPL, who I would never want on the Illini, becuase they just aren't going to make the Illini a top level team. And unfortunately, there are so many top 75-100 players that you just can't take a risk on (generally referring to academics).

CPL still produces many quality players each year that end up on high-major rosters. Illinois, along, with every other big time school will continue to recruit the CPL becuase there will always be talent. In fact, 2007 has the potential to be a very, very good year in the CPL - possibly the best in a very long time (edit...I should say that it could be a very good class in the backcourt. The CPL doesn't look to have a great deal of front court talent in 2007...but this summer will clarify that).

[ron]

look rdf, run your mouth how you are going to. i'm not saying don't, i'm just challenging you on how you developed your sure fire conclusions. imo, it was telling.

deandre may, or may not be an excellent d1 baller in the future. i just don't feel what you used to make the assessment.

also don't understand why you made statements about his recruitment, when you (or maybe your sources) were wrong. he is being recruited by other d1 schools (even if ill and kan might are question marks). check out the link belowe. were you aware of this? there also more schools on him.

www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/sports/11340353.htm

scroll down. the young dude, like it or not, is one of the prime available targets. this is clearly independent of his play in the all-star game, in which you ascribe so much merit.

[kghoya]

i happen to respect both rdf and ron's opinion on most matters...wish i had an opinion on this but i have zero knowledge on thomas

hey rdf...could you pleas never, ever type marcus hatten's name on this board again?

i hate that no talent ass clown...even worse he was able to beat the hoyas...i am still recovering from that huge lead the hoyas surrendered to the johnnies and hatten...st johns started to press and for some reason the hoyas played right into their hands

[RDF]

ron said:

look rdf, run your mouth how you are going to. i'm not saying don't, i'm just challenging you on how you developed your sure fire conclusions. imo, it was telling.

deandre may, or may not be an excellent d1 baller in the future. i just don't feel what you used to make the assessment.

also don't understand why you made statements about his recruitment, when you (or maybe your sources) were wrong. he is being recruited by other d1 schools (even if ill and kan might are question marks). check out the link belowe. were you aware of this? there also more schools on him.

www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/sports/11340353.htm

scroll down. the young dude, like it or not, is one of the prime available targets. this is clearly independent of his play in the all-star game, in which you ascribe so much merit.

Did you actually READ the link you sent? Was that not a COACH who said that about DeAndre? I've got the references and feel free to contact me about WHO they are. I've been backed up by someone who knows a helluva lot more about CPL and Illinois hoops than I do and you choose to ignore him, and then you fail to read the link you so proudly put up---the article talks about 2 other prospects at length and then mentions Thomas and N'Diaye as "other prospects FSU is involved with". So to repeat this again, KU and Illinois were being recruited by Thomas, FSU "is interested" if they don't get their primary Spring targets, and remember they're the school that brought the sport BIG JELLY Nigel Dixon, so I understand their interest--although it appears to be as a back up option.

I don't know what more you need to realize that my point of view is based upon more than an "All Star Game" and dislike for him. I don't know him personally and don't wish him ill, but I am a Hoya Basketball fan and from what I've seen he's not someone who would help my favorite team, so I'm hoping we either sign someone else or hold the scholarship until next season.

KG, the reason I brought up Hatten is because Almighty Ron last took me to task for saying exactly what you did about him--he was a streetball clown who had no chance of making it in NBA and it was disgusting to watch him play--he shot the ball 30+ times and is exactly what NBA doesn't need--a poor shooting, one dimensional gunner. Ron said I'd "eat my words" and "couldn't wait to talk about this in future". Well the future has since passed and I'm still awaiting his "talk". Then he decides to call me out based upon my viewpoint about Thomas and how I said it--because it was an opinion he didn't like that makes it wrong. I think IlliniNYC said it best about CPL and Thomas, but I suppose he knows nothing either.

Fact is, Ron interviews recruits for the other site and maybe he feels he's obligated to stick up for them. I don't know or care, but my stance as a Hoya fan is if I see a player I'll comment on his game and what I've heard--good or bad. Simple as that and why he chose to call me out and if you see name of this thread, you have to wonder about what he was thinking because nothing posted has been anything other than a "I think" and I told FACTS I knew about this and then my opinion as well. Whether it's right or wrong, it was topical and if challenged I will respond. I just lost a lot of respect for Ron because instead of talking about things I brought up that were FACT and someone with more knowledge has backed up--and those who do this for a living (experts or not) have also mentioned, he continues to spew nothing but opinion--which is what he took me to task for in the first place.

[showcase]

While I share RDF's view of Thomas at this point - based on nothing more than instincts and the circumstantial evidence that KU handed an available scholarship to a walk-on rather than Thomas, even tho Thomas would supposedly end up there if a spot opened up - I'm posting only to ask a slightly unrelated question.

Which is: since when does a poster with 24 posts decide who gets "stripes" added or taken away? I'm glad 'ron is interviewing prospects for the other sight and providing some insight on these recruits even over here, but I think it may have gone to his head a bit. RDF's posts are strident, but well-supported. 'Ron's beef seems to be nothing more than "How could you be so strident in a way that disagrees with my view?"

Unless 'ron has something more to add beyond puffery from those who are supposed to puff this kid's recruitment, I suggest this thread may be ripe for a lockdown...

[jerseyhoya34]

showcase said:

While I share RDF's view of Thomas at this point - based on nothing more than instincts and the circumstantial evidence that KU handed an available scholarship to a walk-on rather than Thomas, even tho Thomas would supposedly end up there if a spot opened up - I'm posting only to ask a slightly unrelated question.

Which is: since when does a poster with 24 posts . decide who gets "stripes" added or taken away? I'm glad 'ron is interviewing prospects for the other sight and providing some insight on these recruits even over here, but I think it may have gone to his head a bit. RDF's posts are strident, but well-supported. 'Ron's beef seems to be nothing more than "How could you be so strident in a way that disagrees with my view?"

Unless 'ron has something more to add beyond puffery from those who are supposed to puff this kid's recruitment, I suggest this thread may be ripe for a lockdown...

showcase, I don't have much of a dog in this fight (although I will say that I have some reservations about Thomas), but ron did post on the old HoyaTalk with considerable frequency. He is also active in the local basketball community.

[hoopsmccan]

I think Show knows that Ron was a frequent poster, I think he has a problem with Ron's attitude/approach, like Ron has come down from the Mount to tell us poor non-subscribers the "facts." I don't always agree with RDF, but he is sporadically entertaining and adds quite a bit of good insight to the board. Ron should just have posted his arguments on the same thread as RDF, instead of this calling him out, taking "stripes" nonsense. With that said, I am enjoying this back and forth during the slow offseason, which means that the moderators will likely take Show's advice and lock the thread.

Note: I only have 100 or so posts, so feel free to discount my post.

[showcase]

If I didn't have diarreha of the keyboard, I would have seen that hoopsmccan said everything I intended to say, only in far fewer words.

Proof positive that one's post totals need not be the end all of one's ability to contribute. I stand corrected.

[jerseyhoya34]

hoopsmccan said:

I think Show knows that Ron was a frequent poster, I think he has a problem with Ron's attitude/approach, like Ron has come down from the Mount to tell us poor non-subscribers the "facts." I don't always agree with RDF, but he is sporadically entertaining and adds quite a bit of good insight to the board. Ron should just have posted his arguments on the same thread as RDF, instead of this calling him out, taking "stripes" nonsense. With that said, I am enjoying this back and forth during the slow offseason, which means that the moderators will likely take Show's advice and lock the thread.

Note: I only have 100 or so posts, so feel free to discount my post.

LOL... I agree to some extent with the opinions expressed. I think it is somewhat stupid to accumulate "street cred" on a chat board, but what interests me is good back and forth about players, ideas, etc. I'd rather see that than having the board go Philodemic on us with tally sheets and other such things.

[dreamhoya]

Let me say this: just because the guy is out of shape and can't get up the court and is 6'6 doesn't mean he
can be a great player.