Question For All Fans Regarding Weights and BB

[RDF]

I was wondering what everyone thought about weightlifting and Basketball? Now I am completely AGAINST it and some of what I posted about lack of defense in Tourney thread speaks to it, but I'll state my reasons why below.

1. To me all the weightlifting actually slows down basketball players. If you get too strong in upper body it will make you slower--that's a fact. I realize that some will snicker and think I'm outdated, but I watched more Classic Games on College Sports and ESPN Classic and saw better defense with skinny players who could run, than I've seen in a decade since weights have become prominant.

2. I'd view the most dominant player in Basketball as Bill Russell--and look how he was built. Patrick Ewing was a force when he was lighter and quicker and to me Alonzo Mourning's as a FR was more agile and intimidating then he was as he got stronger in NBA. Even a guy like Shaq has had his best year in a long time because he slimmed down. SPEED and QUICKNESS are most important aspects to me in sport. It's unmatchable and intimidating. If combined with skill, you are going to be a threat to win any/every game.

3. Those who will argue about rebounding and lack of muscle have to remember how Bill Russell used to dominant the boards and who's the best rebounder in last 15-20 years?? Dennis Rodman. He wasn't a hulk.

4. The athleticism of kids is outstanding but I'm talking about getting back to basketball skills and applying conditioning and speed. Watching those old Hoya games and other games played in past showed just how quick and talented teams were on defense and it really was awesome to watch. Players would be in stances, sliding feet, and keeping ball in front without gambling on defense.

5. If you eliminated weights, you'd have more time to work on skills and running is the #1 training method a basketball needs---I see too many kids winded in today's games and they are supposedly in better shape. Why are they tired? They dont' play defense. They think they are, but they aren't. Defense takes energy--offense is when you rest. That's addage of any WINNING team consistently. Now we saw that change last night with UNC but it was due to Illinois shooting too many outside shots and the lack of conditioning and defense allowed Illini back in a game they should've been put away.

Reason I bring this up is that I'd like to see GU use an approach that is ahead of everyone else and go back to developing basketball skills and condition with running, rather than focus on weights. I think rebounding is about effort and quickness to the ball as much as brute force. I think pressure defense would work more today than everyone says because you don't see it done properly. I'm not talking about full court pressure, I'm talking constant pressure--mixing in man pressure with guys ragging ball and moving their feet which would frustrate opponents.

Why not try something different and see if it works? Everyone laments the lack of facilities, well in Basketball all you really need is a place to practice and go full court. Weights make you look pretty but what do they add to basketball player's game? Quickness and speed beat force if utilized correctly. Would you take Bill Russell or Shaq? I'd take Russell. Look how Detroit beat Lakers last year? Running and exploiting a methodical team by using their conditioning and speed. Rip Hamilton and Allen Iverson are fun to watch because they can run all day and night.

Football players use weights because of the contact and it's an explosion sport where you explode for 7-8 seconds and most plays happen within 15 yards. Still the fastest player I've seen in NFL is Randy Moss and look how he's built.

I think natural strength is fine and some weightlifting isn't a killer although I think the lack of cardiovascular training is obvious watching kids play. To me you make kids run and practice running floor and pressuring to get prepared for that style--you don't reward them for not being able to play that way as many teams do. Some of the best shooting bigs are Garnett and Rasheed Wallace and they are slight in build. Reggie Miller's outlasted most and he's frail as can be. But he's still quick enough to get his shot off and he's never touched a weight.

I just would like to see a team built around basketball skills--which are running, quickness, and being able to defend, shoot, etc... and weights don't benefit that. Explosion can be created by speed as much as strength in basketball. Players of old days were legendary and didn't have to lift 300 lbs to prove it. They played and teams like GU came along with speed, quickness and physical play and didn't have one guy who appeared to be more than 220 lbs. I'd take Ewing at GU and early years with Knicks with that athleticism and agility over Zo with Heat in his prime--Zo used to get to more shots when he was lighter and quicker. You get to more loose balls and just intimidate and scare opponents with constant pressure. Muscles don't scare anyone playing sports. Speed and Quickness do.

I'm interested to see what others think on this, but I think it's a help to think outside the box and be ahead of others when approaching your sport. Why not use a different method to training/preparing? We've got a team that would flourish with this type of style and using backcuts and motion with speed is harder to defend than some brutes down low who you can zone up and muscular shooting guards whose shots are effected by being too bulky.

I understand it in football but think it's out of hand. Baseball the same--you give me Pedro, Schilling, Randy Johnson, Mariano Rivera, types and compare that to Rob Dibble, Randy Myers, etc.. who focused on weight training.

I just believe that GU could do something to not only get an edge but it would help them win on the court as well. If you can defend and I mean real defense which involves sliding feet, moving to stay in front of your man, and running at all times you'll shock most teams today because kids think you have to lift, get stronger, and think defense is letting your man get by and slapping/reaching for ball or causing teammates to help. Help Defense is great, but it shouldn't required every trip down the court. Kids don't pass as well and like to go off dribble and if you can take that away--see Ray Reed against Marcus Williams, it's amazing how much trouble they have scoring--even when they have more talent. Take better talent and apply that and you have a team who can win and change how game is played.

[RBHoya]

I agree with your general thesis of improving team quickness and basketball skill, though I'm a bit less anti-weight lifting than you. Yes, you're right, quickness is much more important than strength in basketball. Nonethless, in post-up situations, you need to have the body strength not to get pushed around. A guy like Sean May is dominant in the pain at the college level because he's just much, much stronger than his competition. The same is pretty much true of Shaq in the NBA. If youre strong enough to establish position in the post and not give it up even when contested, you're going to get a lot of easy deuces.

I'm also not 100% sold on the "weight lifting makes you slower" argument, because theres no reason you cant weight train and still improve your speed. It's possible to be both very strong and very quick, like a lot of NFL players and NBA players too. If you start to acquire big bulky muscles it's likely to slow you down some, but theres no reason that you cant acquire strength and speed at the same time.

I do think youre right to focus on speed and endurance foremost though. I'd like to have a team that can apply pressure on the ball 40 minutes a game, never letting the opposition take a breath. I think JTIII may be moving in that direction as well, but depth is a key there too. Even most of the best professional athletes don't play 40 minutes without a break or some falloff in play.

As for rebounding.... only 2 things matter in rebounding--positioning and desire. You could be a world champion strongman, but if you're boxed out, you're not getting the rebound without committing a foul. Jeff hasn't mastered rebounding yet, but we really cant complain as he's been so outstanding in other aspects. He'll get the hang of it over the next year I'm sure.

[SFHoya99]

If you think Dennis Rodman didn't weight train, you've lost it, RDF.

I agree on some principles. There's no reason to bulk up significantly if you are a guard. Forwards are different. Russell may have dominated, but he never had to get bullied by Karl Malone.

Players need to be in shape and strong. You can get outmuscled on the court. This doesn't mean bulky, though, and players should weight train for quickness and speed. It is a myth that weight training slows you down. It's the added weight that will. Weight lifting the right way won't significantly slow the players; it can even speed them up.

Today, you need have some muscle down low to stop the Sean Mays and Mike Sweetney's of the world.

I think it may be overdone, but you'd be hardpressed to prove that today's players are slower. Maybe they should spend less time weight training and more time on footwork -- but it isn't the lifting that is killing them.

[the_way]

I'm an advocate of weightraining. I don't think there is enough of it going on in Basketball. The problem is people don't properly do it. When you do it effectively it keeps you healthy, stronger, and keeps you from getting injured. There is always a risk of bulking up too much and losing range of motion. But that is when you overdo it. Bill Russell, if he played in this day an age he would have to bulk up. Dennis Rodman was a freak at weightraining. People always look at his antics,etc. but the man was a gym rat. He would work out before a game AND after the same game. Rodman was sculpted like a statue. I don't think he had an ounce of fat on his body. He had to work out. He was 6'8" (more like 6'6") and slim like a small forward yet he played power forward. In terms of Ewing, his problem was bad knees. He didn't really bulk up that much after leaving GU. For Mourning, he had to bulk up if he was going to play center for a career. He was already shorter than most centers to begin with, but he was stronger than most. Shaq bulked up before he got fat with LA. He needed to get bulked for all of the pounding he received. For guards, I think you should do it. Guards take poundings too, especially when you go through the lane. I remember in Philly, Larry Brown would get ticked off by Iverson because he would never weightlift during the offseason. Larry felt he needed to get stronger since AI would get pounded in the lane so much. Me personally, I think more players should do it. I haven't really seen any player be affected by too much weightlifting. Usually its when a player is out a shape and fat that it affects their game. But in terms of weightlifting, I think it should be done by basketball players.

[TBird41]

You need some weightlifting, but it should be done right. Strength in the post is important, otherwise May/Sweets/Craig Smith just destroys you. Unless, of course, your defense is so good the guards can't get the ball in, that helps.

Back to weight training, the key is to do lots of reps w/ less weight--it'll increase strength and endurance, but won't add too much bulk.

[the_way]

TBird41 said:

Back to weight training, the key is to do lots of reps w/ less weight--it'll increase strength and endurance, but won't add too much bulk.

Exactly.

[HOYAPLAYA]

A proper weightlifting program will always increase your quickness. These guys shouldn't be training for the Olympic Weightlifting competition, but the one thing I've noticed when watching a lot of the teams play over the final two weeks is how much more definition they seem to have than our players. I've seen BB add some muscle and it definitely has helped his game, but there are some other players that I think could have hit the weights a little harder in the past few seasons (Cook, Owens, AKD).

Also, until we start outrebounding teams and physically dominating them like we use to, I'm going to argue that we need more weightlifting (or at least a better program) rather than less.

[HOYAPLAYA]

To echo what some others have posted and provide some clarity on my DEFINITION comment above. This definition and quickness is gained by doing a combination of low weight/high reps and speed/agility drills. It's the repetition that is important as your muscles become trained to respond.