Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 5, 2005 16:01:48 GMT -5
Way, did you attend GU? If so, how did you go about chosing GU? How were you exposed to GU in the first place? Did you go over all the spreadsheets/numbers regarding Georgetown's rankings & quality of education? Did you research the school heavily and really think about how it would benefit you best?
I'm sure to some extent you did, but the truth is a large part of your decision was made before you ever applied...why? Because of the Georgetown brand name that you soaked up in your youth. In those early years, probably around ages 5-12, GU's identity was promoted to you in some way whether it was academics or athletics and somehow it stuck subconsciously or consciously. Hell, kids can more quickly ID Wendy, Ronald McDonald and other corporate mascots than they can politicians...you don't think early marketing works?
My point is, you are correct that no one will just be hypnotized by an advertisement, but every little mention and spot on TV adds to the myth of a school and every so slightly influences kids' decisions. You might say so what...but the NCAA has very carefully -- for better or for worse -- heavily regulated the ways in which a school can influence a student's decision. Therefore, any influence, no matter how minor, should be considered as such and regulated just like all the others.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 5, 2005 16:02:01 GMT -5
The_way, I think you need to differentiate between the current 17 year old who is quite familiar with the schools interested in him, and the 11 year old kid who doesn't know much about either school but now suddenly he's seeing the Duke Coach on during his cartoons. When that Duke Coach comes to see him play when he's 15 it might have more of an impact than the unrecognized Wake Forest Coach. Thats bogus and really stretching it. Again, Coach K gets kid because he WINS a lot. Not because of commercials. Coaches have done commercials before.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 5, 2005 16:10:47 GMT -5
_______________________ Whether you think it is effective or ineffective, the NCAA bans recruiting during dead periods. The commercial is nothing about American Express. It is about Duke the institution. It is about Coach K. It is about his leadership philosophy. And it is right there, over and over during the NCAA tournament, for high school basketball players to watch. Effective or not, the aim from Coach K's point of view clearly is recruiting. Unless CBS allows similar infomercials from all other Division I basketball programs, it (in my view) was inappropriate for CBS to air those "AMEX ad's" BINGO I mean, OK is getting in trouble for calling recruits too many times...Now I don't think telephone calls are the most effective way to recruit, but they add up and can change a players mind. I'd say a TV commercial beamed into the homes of 30 million 10-15 year old boys across the country every 5-10 minutes during the one month they are definitely paying attention to basketball is definitely a recruiting tool and way more effective and eggregious than making a few extra phone calls.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 5, 2005 16:14:43 GMT -5
Agree.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 5, 2005 18:08:10 GMT -5
Guys, I can see both sides to the argument but tend to think it's much ado about nothing. One thing I think needs to be addressed is that those commercials ran during a period where recruits can't be contacted or aren't supposed to be. So I think that ticked off Schools and Coaches more than anything--not the commercial itself.
As for helping recruiting--I think it doesn't really matter--Duke is going to get players no matter what and if you want to point that needs to be changed, it's the insane amount of games they get televised nationally. There is no reason for a Duke-Valparaiso game to be on ESPN or a Duke-Davidson game to get National Exposure. They will have enough coverage and there are other teams/games that should merit coverage over a guaranteed Blue Devil win and what amounts as nothing more than a recruiting advantage--we're on television in EVERY GAME.
As for during the Tournament I'd say the teams in Final 4 who are playing have a bigger advantage than the Commercials--because a lot of people will turn the channel during break, go to the kitchen, or take a bathroom break.
I support those who bash it because I'm anti-Duke period, but I do think it's more harmless than the other stuff that goes on--constant praise of Duke from Vitale, having all their games on tv, having every commentator be an Ex-Duke player, those things sure don't hurt. However I can tell you that in my kitchen last night I knew exactly who was on when that annoying ad came on and the song started with "GET ON THE BALL" and I could see the Rodent faced Coach K in my head and that's pretty scary picture.
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JimmyHoya
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Post by JimmyHoya on Apr 5, 2005 18:39:57 GMT -5
Its bogus. There is nothing wrong with the Ad. If you win as many times Coach K has over the years, that is enough to recruit players in itself. My thoughts, exactly. I especially love the Myles Brand quote though...of course he likes it, his grubby greedy hands got more cash from it!!!!
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Apr 6, 2005 1:26:55 GMT -5
I loved the JT milk commercial in which he showed how to run the pick and roll. I also liked the Nike commercial with Dean Smith and JT on rocking chairs. The former aired (probably only in the DC area) while JT was still coach. The latter was in heavy rotation during the tournament, but it aired after both Smith and Thompson had retired.
I do think that these commercials are good publicity for the coaches and schools and probably give some recruiting advantage, but I'm not sure what should be done about it.
I don't think creating new rules to prevent these ads is the right response. Just as campaign finance laws usually end up helping incumbents stay in power, more recruiting rules would just end up reinforcing the dominance of the major programs.
For those of us who dislike Duke, I think the best response is just to make fun of the AmEx ad's sactimony.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 6, 2005 9:59:33 GMT -5
We are not talking about sales. We are talking about recruits. Recruits aren't stupid. Have you ever been involved with recruits. Because it is quite obvious you do not have the slightest idea of what recruits look for in signing with a college. This is what you are saying: Recruit A is sitting in his den at his house debating on whether to sign with Duke or Wake Forest. The television is on and Coach K's commercial is now playing. All of the sudden the kid comes under a trance and hears a voice saying (haunting Dark Varder type voice) "come join Duke, come join Duke, come join Duke, you wills sign or else, use the force". Then the kid says thats it, he is going to sign with Duke, because of Coach K's commerical. Please, that is bogus. You're missing the point. This is not about a kid who is ready to sign on the dotted line as much as it is about the future recruiting benefits. Are you trying to tell me that it has absolutely no effect on a kid who is currently 13 years old who might be watching the tourney with his parents. There are parents out there that don't know that much about recruiting even though their kids have great talent. You are telling me that these parents wouldn't watch this commercial and think that if this man came calling for my son, I'm definintely going to want to send my kid to play for him. It's an unfair advantage because it shows Coach K in this great light, while other coaches don't have the ability to do a public service message about how great of a man they are and all the other bull that was in that commercial. I'll tell you that I do know and have been involved in recruiting (as a HS athlete and as a student athlete trying to persuade recruits) and can tell you that it does have an advantage. Recruiting is nothing but one big advertising/marketing campaign and competition. Trust me when I tell you that things are a lot different when you show up on campus for the first day of practice, then what was communicated to you during the recruiting period. The same goes for most jobs and that's why they advertise. In part to provide a good feeling to customers and on the other hand to make it seem like a great place to work in order to obtain top talent. AMEX wins and Duke wins due to this commercial and to try to argue otherwise is laughable.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 6, 2005 10:06:09 GMT -5
You're missing the point. This is not about a kid who is ready to sign on the dotted line as much as it is about the future recruiting benefits. Are you trying to tell me that it has absolutely no effect on a kid who is currently 13 years old who might be watching the tourney with his parents. There are parents out there that don't know that much about recruiting even though their kids have great talent. You are telling me that these parents wouldn't watch this commercial and think that if this man came calling for my son, I'm definintely going to want to send my kid to play for him. It's an unfair advantage because it shows Coach K in this great light, while other coaches don't have the ability to do a public service message about how great of a man they are and all the other bull that was in that commercial. I'll tell you that I do know and have been involved in recruiting (as a HS athlete and as a student athlete trying to persuade recruits) and can tell you that it does have an advantage. Recruiting is nothing but one big advertising/marketing campaign and competition. Trust me when I tell you that things are a lot different when you show up on campus for the first day of practice, then what was communicated to you during the recruiting period. The same goes for most jobs and that's why they advertise. In part to provide a good feeling to customers and on the other hand to make it seem like a great place to work in order to obtain top talent. AMEX wins and Duke wins due to this commercial and to try to argue otherwise is laughable. Duke won 3 National Titles, went to 9 final fours, and won several ACC regular season and ACC Tournament titles before the AMEX commerical. Recruits do not fall for commercials. Maybe you believe in them. But the average recruit doesn't. Duke gains no edge with the commercial. Coaches have been doing commercials before this one, and no one had a gripe about it. Its bogus.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 6, 2005 10:28:36 GMT -5
Duke won 3 National Titles, went to 9 final fours, and won several ACC regular season and ACC Tournament titles before the AMEX commerical. Recruits do not fall for commercials. Maybe you believe in them. But the average recruit doesn't. Duke gains no edge with the commercial. Coaches have been doing commercials before this one, and no one had a gripe about it. Its bogus. It's sad that this was the best response that you could provide to support your argument and i'm not even sure why I'm responding to your post in the first place. Recruits do today and always have made decisions based on a lot of factors. However, one of the biggest factors is perception. If I go on a recruiting visit and Coach K is a complete A-hole, then I'm not going to go there regardless of the number of commercials that he does. However, if I'm a top recruit and my lists of schools include Duke, Stanford, Notre Dame and let's say Ga Tech, then are you trying to tell me that my perception of the coach isn't going to give them an advantage going into the process. Listen, no one is saying that a kid is going to see this commercial and then call Duke and say "I'm ready when you come calling". We're just saying that it does have an effect on the perception of the program by future recruits and their parents and to show that commercial repeatedly during the tournament has to be seen as a advertisement for your program. For Coach K to act like he never even considered how it would look for his program is ludicrous, especially with all the talk over the last 2 years down here in NC about how Wake and UNC may have taken over Duke as the top programs in the ACC going forward.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 6, 2005 10:32:32 GMT -5
Duke won 3 National Titles, went to 9 final fours, and won several ACC regular season and ACC Tournament titles before the AMEX commerical. Recruits do not fall for commercials. Maybe you believe in them. But the average recruit doesn't. Duke gains no edge with the commercial. Coaches have been doing commercials before this one, and no one had a gripe about it. Its bogus. You are right of course. A recruit is not going to fall for an AMEX commercial of all things, or be too influenced by one. Now, if it was a commercial featuring Coach K talking about how Victoria's Secret models regularly attend Duke practices? Probably a different story. Recruits fall for things like having Halle Berry give them the tour of the campus and sign up to be their tutor (God, why do I even mention that stupid movie?). Or, real life example, when Duke was recruiting Laettner, he visited the campus and they had everyone in Cameron launch into a "Christian! Laettner!" chant. Recruits are teenage kids. They want adulation, they want the chicks and they want the limelight. They also want to be rich, but I don't think Coach K could get away with a commercial that says, "I turn my players into NBA millionaires!" (for many, MANY reasons, he couldn't do that -- ba-ZING! ) On the other hand, recruits do listen to their parents, once in a while anyway. I'm not saying parents are more gullible, but they are (should be?) focused on different things. I do think the language in the ad was very smartly crafted. And I'm betting that Duke and Coach K had more than a little say on what that language would be. "I develop my kids not just as players, but as people." I mean, let's face it. That's a pitch normally reserved for the living room couch. You can't tell me that there wasn't a LOT of thought into the spot of focusing how wonderful an influence Coach K is on young people. So yeah, I guess its probably a bit of an advantage. I don't have too much of a problem with Coach K being featured in a commercial. Yes, he has earned that. I have some problem with it being aired throughout the NCAA tournament, but of course, that's what AMEX wanted. I'm not sure if the NCAA should have stepped in to question that, probably not. (though god knows, they've stepped into situations where they have even less business). Honestly, my main problem with it was simply the number of times I had to listen to Coach K's whiny, rat-faced [EXPLETIVE DELETED] voice when all I wanted to do was watch college basketball.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 6, 2005 10:38:01 GMT -5
I'm waiting for the follow-up Carlos Boozer Mastercard Ad to combat the Amex ad:
Scholarship to Duke: $120,000 Being Selected as a Lottery Pick: $12 million Breaking your word and Screwing over a Blind Man for more millions: Priceless
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angus
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Post by angus on Apr 6, 2005 11:51:04 GMT -5
Duke won 3 National Titles, went to 9 final fours, and won several ACC regular season and ACC Tournament titles before the AMEX commerical. Recruits do not fall for commercials. Maybe you believe in them. But the average recruit doesn't. Duke gains no edge with the commercial. Coaches have been doing commercials before this one, and no one had a gripe about it. Its bogus. ________________________ Can't recall if it was Neuheisel or Cameron Dollar, but one of them made a telephone call from a recruit's driveway during a period when visits were not allowed. The coach told the recruit he was in the driveway, and asked the recruit to look out the window. When considering whether or not it was a recruiting violation, the NCAA did not consider whether the act was effective or not (it probably wasn't). So why are you entirely focused on that issue? Effectiveness simply is not a factor to be considered when adjudicating whether or not an action was improper recruiting. Coach K knowingly used a television ad during the NCAA tourney and Final 4 to showcase his program, not AMEX. For him to suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best, and a lie at worst. To me, that is recruiting. Perhaps it is not punishable because Coach K found a loophope. If that is the case, the loophole should be closed.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 6, 2005 12:01:48 GMT -5
If winning is the only reason that recruits sign, I guess all that Fuss about Tark, Sampson and others is/was totally unwarranted. I mean, sure they might have done/do some unsanctioned recruiting, but it was their winning that caused the recruits to sign...not the money, cars or other benefits. I guess we shouldn't worry about it.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Apr 6, 2005 13:06:54 GMT -5
________________________ Can't recall if it was Neuheisel or Cameron Dollar, but one of them made a telephone call from a recruit's driveway during a period when visits were not allowed. It was Mr. NCAA Pool himself. Rick Neuheisel.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Apr 6, 2005 13:31:23 GMT -5
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 6, 2005 15:32:53 GMT -5
ps - tino just went yard! Ouch, talk about jinxing it. What happened to Mo? Is he injured or just entering a Pedro-phase in his career where one team is in his head?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 6, 2005 20:55:50 GMT -5
Because it's Krzyzewski and his persona has grown tiresome, people complain. If Tom Izzo was selling AmEx, would there be the same indignation?
Maybe it's TV. (Not many complained when John Thompson did print ads for Transamerica, by comparison.)
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 6, 2005 21:21:00 GMT -5
Because it's Krzyzewski and his persona has grown tiresome, people complain. If Tom Izzo was selling AmEx, would there be the same indignation? Maybe it's TV. (Not many complained when John Thompson did print ads for Transamerica, by comparison.) I disagree. If it is unseemly, it is unseemly, whether it is Izzo, Boeheim, Tarkanian, or Coach K. The fact that Brand received phone calls from AD's et al. speaks to the idea that these commercials seemed to skirt around NCAA regs. Some portions of the commercial are about Cameron and Duke more than Amex and Coach K. Schools have their own air time to make their pitch, and this isn't one of them.
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3GenerationHoya
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Post by 3GenerationHoya on Apr 6, 2005 23:19:33 GMT -5
Always useful to add the perspective of a weekly online sports humor magazine to debates. From sportspickle.com:
Mike Krzyzewski spoke out on Monday on his controversial American Express commercial, saying that, “if someone thinks that’s a recruiting advantage or that’s why it’s done, I feel bad for them.” You know, the Hitler look-alike makes a good point. Just because he was able to look directly into the camera for 30 seconds in a commercial that ran constantly throughout the entire NCAA Tournament and make a sales pitch to every high school player on why they should go to Duke, does not give him an unfair advantage. In fact, in the when he speaks at the camera and says: “I want YOU armed for life. I want YOU to develop as a player. I want YOU to develop as a student, and I want YOU to develop as a human being” … he’s probably talking to American Express card holders, not prospective recruits. Duh! Anyone who would think differently, well … I feel bad for them. Like when I write this: “Mike Krzyzewski: YOU are a fraud, YOU are a liar, YOU are a megalomaniac,” I’m not talking about Krzyzewski. And if anyone believes that I’m not talking about Krzyzewski, well … I feel bad for them.
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