lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
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Post by lichoya68 on Apr 2, 2005 22:33:08 GMT -5
for hiim id hate to see him have to follow in the foot steps thats huge footsteps of his father..... on the other hand jt3 had pretty big shoes to fill and thats been ok.. as for patrick jr when i saw him play in the kenner league.... he was kinda of a tweener... but pretty good rebounder and hustler on d ..sooooooooooooo we will see what we will see ..go hoyas ..is it november yet ??..got your reservations for the hoop club banquet yet .... need to thank theses guys... and jt3 ... come out on wed the 13th .. they deserve our support .. go hoyas ;D ;D ;D
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Apr 2, 2005 23:50:40 GMT -5
I'd take PE Jr in a heartbeat. Where he has some rough edges, he makes up for it in Basketball IQ and he's a very intelligent player. He was often hampered by Mike Davis' moronic substitution pattern where he'd insist playing people based on their recruitment and not their production. IU's best run was when that overrated clown Bracey Wright was out with his yearly injury and once he came back, their hopes for NCAA's went down the toilet. If Davis would've played Ewing with DJ White, IU would've been a lot tougher.
Specifically what I like about possibility of JR joining Hoyas is he'd have a year to improve with Hoya Staff helping his shooting/face up skills and he'd be able to learn the system and help in practice. Also was known as quite a popular person/player at IU--hosted a lot of recruits and did the little things that bring teams more wins---loose balls, rebounds, passing, defense. He plays aggressive but has a lot of skills, just needs to cut his fouls down and hit more jumpers. However another asset is he appears to have grown at least 2 inches from his SR year in HS and I'd guess he's closer to 6'9-6'10 then 6'7-6'8 they list him at.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,209
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 3, 2005 0:50:36 GMT -5
Looks like PE Sr. has been channeling Casey Stengel AND Yogi Berra.
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Post by philwederstrandt on Apr 3, 2005 7:42:06 GMT -5
Posted by: hoyarooter Posted on: Today at 00:50:36
Looks like PE Sr. has been channeling Casey Stengel AND Yogi Berra.
More like Raymond Medley aka "Pebbles"
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 3, 2005 12:24:29 GMT -5
Posted by: hoyarooter Posted on: Today at 00:50:36
Looks like PE Sr. has been channeling Casey Stengel AND Yogi Berra. More like Raymond Medley aka "Pebbles" Wow! Thank you so much for reminding me of Pebbles. What a special human being. A Georgetown institution And the person who gave me my nickname, that pretty soon virtually everyone at GU knew me by. I think THE HOYA or someplace wrote a story on him a while back, though my quick search of their archives did not turn up anything. If anyone can find a story and post a link, it would be much appreciated.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
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Post by Jack on Apr 3, 2005 14:18:42 GMT -5
Good to see we have 3 threads going on the PE Jr. transfer that ain't-gonna-happen. I reiterate the question asked earlier in this thread and elsewhere- where is the scholarship going to come from? You only get 13, and there are as many as 14 student-athletes who are already ahead of PE Jr. for those 13 spots in my mind. Unless that question can be resolved without reneging on the commitment to young men who have already given something to Georgetown, there is no point in having this discussion.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,743
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 3, 2005 14:21:10 GMT -5
Good to see we have 3 threads going on the PE Jr. transfer that ain't-gonna-happen. I reiterate the question asked earlier in this thread and elsewhere- where is the scholarship going to come from? You only get 13, and there are as many as 14 student-athletes who are already ahead of PE Jr. for those 13 spots in my mind. Unless that question can be resolved without reneging on the commitment to young men who have already given something to Georgetown, there is no point in having this discussion. Jack, we're not supposed to discuss the thing that we're not supposed to discuss, but there's a lot of choices to be made in the offseason by coaches and players alike. I can't remember the last time a team had a new coach and there wasn't some changes in who wanted to play for him.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 3, 2005 14:39:06 GMT -5
Good to see we have 3 threads going on the PE Jr. transfer that ain't-gonna-happen. I reiterate the question asked earlier in this thread and elsewhere- where is the scholarship going to come from? You only get 13, and there are as many as 14 student-athletes who are already ahead of PE Jr. for those 13 spots in my mind. Unless that question can be resolved without reneging on the commitment to young men who have already given something to Georgetown, there is no point in having this discussion. When a player signs a LOI to a D1 school, it is not a binding legal document for 4 years. Indeed, scholarships are renewed on an annual basis, with no legal obligation, to my knowledge, for either party to honor a signed LOI or scholarship for more than a year. So, there is no reneging of a legal commitment even when scholarships are pulled. That said, it is probably not fair to delve into this discussion before we see whether there is any roster attrition on our side. As general policy, however, I agree with you, Jack. Players should be signed with the expectation of both parties that they are going to either stay for four years (or, if circumstances and talent warrant it, pursue a career in the NBA after two years with the program). Granted, there should be a "Carmelo" exception, in my view, but I see that as a good general policy for the program. What I do disagree with (and this isn't necessarily coming from you) is this fictitious idea that there is one admissions policy and procedure at Georgetown. Our basketball players are here because of basketball. Very few of them would be here if "extracurricular activities" were not given such great weight in their situations. We cannot afford to stray away from this practice because, face it, the RBB's of CBB are few and far between, and the basketball program needs to be focused first and foremost on being a basketball program, not a set of players who receive additional instruction and play basketball if their homework is done for the day. Some people say that this dilutes the academic community at GU, and I say hogwash. Unfortunately, there are some situations of students who are admitted in regular admissions, and they fail classes and so forth. Where is the outrage about that? We don't see people here or elsewhere arguing that they're destroying the academic community at GU. Why? Because, in my view, the idea about marginal admissions for GU BB is close to absurd (when considered in the context of the health of the academic community) and does not hold water as a general principle. Anyway, just want to throw this out there to generate discussion...
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
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Post by Jack on Apr 3, 2005 15:03:23 GMT -5
Jersey, not sure where that rant about admissions standards is coming from, certainly nothing based in reality, but I'll let it go for another time and another discussion.
My point is not about any legal commitment regarding the scholarships. I am well aware that all scholarships are renewable at the discretion of the university. I still see those scholarships as a commitment to young men who chose to come to Georgetown during a time of some upheaval with other options on the table. If they are unhappy and want to leave, that is their decision, and perhaps that is what SFHoya is alluding too. But none of them should be forced to leave unless it is because they are not holding up their end of the bargain academically or personally.
I know that JTIII did not recruit most of the players on the team, and I know that there are probably at least a few he would not have recruited had he been in charge, but I don't see it as his decision to make retrospectively. I do not have any reason to believe that is going on, but it does seem to be what some folks here are advocating. JTIII already got 4 recruits for next year, he will get at least 3 more the year after that, and all of us, JTIII included, need to be patient about letting him build the roster he would like to build.
As much as I am aware of the realities of big time college athletics, I also believe there is a greater responsibility to these young men that comes along with being an institution that aims to educate the entire person. Forcing players out of their scholarships, while not illegal, is not in keeping with the overall philosophy of the university.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 3, 2005 15:31:45 GMT -5
Jersey, not sure where that rant about admissions standards is coming from, certainly nothing based in reality, but I'll let it go for another time and another discussion. My point is not about any legal commitment regarding the scholarships. I am well aware that all scholarships are renewable at the discretion of the university. I still see those scholarships as a commitment to young men who chose to come to Georgetown during a time of some upheaval with other options on the table. If they are unhappy and want to leave, that is their decision, and perhaps that is what SFHoya is alluding too. But none of them should be forced to leave unless it is because they are not holding up their end of the bargain academically or personally. I know that JTIII did not recruit most of the players on the team, and I know that there are probably at least a few he would not have recruited had he been in charge, but I don't see it as his decision to make retrospectively. I do not have any reason to believe that is going on, but it does seem to be what some folks here are advocating. JTIII already got 4 recruits for next year, he will get at least 3 more the year after that, and all of us, JTIII included, need to be patient about letting him build the roster he would like to build. As much as I am aware of the realities of big time college athletics, I also believe there is a greater responsibility to these young men that comes along with being an institution that aims to educate the entire person. Forcing players out of their scholarships, while not illegal, is not in keeping with the overall philosophy of the university. Rant on admissions standards follows from discussion about institutional policy with respect to players' status at this university and some ongoing discussions on this board... As far as me not basing my perspective in reality, I could throw out some names of former players, and we can grasp at straws to figure out how they might be admitted under our allegedly single standard/admissions policy. To follow on that, how can we explain the fact that the average SAT score for our team in the first 10 years of JT2 was less than 900? This is not to say that Deacon is not involved because he is, but this is to say that we're not exactly tossing certain applications through the same ringer that you might find for general admittees. I know this to be the case given the statements of key officials in Big Man on Campus about a few cases, even some in the early 1980's. In terms of some of our players, the proximate cause of their being here is that the were extended a scholarship offer by our basketball coach, not their submission of a complete application with letters of recommendation, essays, and so forth to CD. I am also of the belief that our basketball program bears a large responsibility for the emergence of GU as one of the nation's elite universities. In this view, the strength and health of the university and its students has a lot to do with the marginal folks, like Iverson and Page as much as it has to do with the more stellar students, like RBB. Nobody, it seems, is willing to give that credit where it is due, but I will. Anyway, I'd appreciate a PM or follow-up as to what you disagreed with. Perhaps it is my opinion that you don't agree with, but I assure you that it is based on my observations, including those involving in-class observations, and I can assure you that not all of them are pretty. Did some of these negatives bring down the level of the classes? Heck no. In terms of forcing transfers, I agree with your perspective. However, I will say that I think JT3 is perfectly capable of suggesting transfers to some guys in the following way, "If you want to receive more playing time and want to get more exposure for a professional career, I don't believe that I can fulfill your needs because we're looking at other players to fill your spot." I think JT3 owes the players that level of honesty, and they can move from there if need be. In terms of the "whole person," I see it as a good and worthy goal, but I see it as competing to some degree with the pull of academic specialization. It seems to me that the purpose of academic majors is to create a level of academic specialization to compliment the more "whole person" offerings of the core curriculum. At the end of the day, however, I feel that a GU education aims at preparing folks for the workforce in their field of interest. Who am I to say that the basketball players should not be afforded the option to specialize (or focus) on their basketball work if they want to pursue a professional career in that area? It seems to me that this is how CFree et al. developed their careers. To my knowledge, none of them entered with an interest in diplomacy/foreign policy and none of them was enrolled in the SFS. Yet, they were able to find something that allowed them to continue their specialized interest in basketball because of what they learned through the CE regime. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion but not the accusations of straying from reality. There is a story behind most everything that I have said, and I'd prefer not to share them because of the nature of the beast and because some folks deserve their privacy. In my view, there is a difference between what GU is and what we want to think it is.
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ShimmyJr
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 319
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Post by ShimmyJr on Apr 3, 2005 16:08:37 GMT -5
i mean, I think Jack [EDITED - unnecessary], but I have to agree with him on your admissions rant, Jersey. First, where did this come from? Second, does anyone who has a heartbeat believe that, with regard to admissions, our basketball players are scrutinized as closely as our general admittees? I mean, duh?
Generally, though, I agree with you that basketball players are here, first and foremost, to play basketball and get to the tournament. They are going to a top school for free...that is the least they could do.
As for some of the stiffs that Esh recruiting in his last couple of years, he did that because he was scared and had no other choice after Hall and Bethel transferred and Big Mike left...That is the ONLY reason we went after Sead and Ray Reed, both of whom were not being recruited barely at all by national schools.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 3, 2005 16:17:04 GMT -5
i mean, I think Jack [EDITED - unnecessary], but I have to agree with him on your admissions rant, Jersey. First, where did this come from? Second, does anyone who has a heartbeat believe that, with regard to admissions, our basketball players are scrutinized as closely as our general admittees? I mean, duh? Generally, though, I agree with you that basketball players are here, first and foremost, to play basketball and get to the tournament. They are going to a top school for free...that is the least they could do. As for some of the stiffs that Esh recruiting in his last couple of years, he did that because he was scared and had no other choice after Hall and Bethel transferred and Big Mike left...That is the ONLY reason we went after Sead and Ray Reed, both of whom were not being recruited barely at all by national schools. First, no need to attack Jack or anyone else. I have appreciated his follow-up on the matter, and he comes across as a gentleman and a loyal son of GU. In terms of where my rant is coming from, it follows up on discussions that have taken place in the past on the board and is related directly to some of these questions with respect to the status of players in the program. One poster (not Jack), in particular, made an interesting post a few weeks ago about how certain recruits (in this case, a transfer) could not be admitted because it would allegedly violate Admissions Policy X, Y, or Z. Others have made similar intimations about our admissions policies for recruits in the sense that they have cited general admissions policy and applied it to basketball recruits. I believe that these intimations were mostly incorrect. In hindsight, my rant was probably best housed in a new thread, but I felt like it was time to breathe some life into this thread. The main reason that we went after Sead and Reed is because we didn't have time to make a run at anyone else. Some important time during that recruiting season was spent trying to re-recruit players who were on our roster at the time. I don't see it as Esh being scared, but I agree with the point that I believe you made about not having anything else to go on.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,743
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 3, 2005 16:35:53 GMT -5
Jersey, not sure where that rant about admissions standards is coming from, certainly nothing based in reality, but I'll let it go for another time and another discussion. My point is not about any legal commitment regarding the scholarships. I am well aware that all scholarships are renewable at the discretion of the university. I still see those scholarships as a commitment to young men who chose to come to Georgetown during a time of some upheaval with other options on the table. If they are unhappy and want to leave, that is their decision, and perhaps that is what SFHoya is alluding too. But none of them should be forced to leave unless it is because they are not holding up their end of the bargain academically or personally. I know that JTIII did not recruit most of the players on the team, and I know that there are probably at least a few he would not have recruited had he been in charge, but I don't see it as his decision to make retrospectively. I do not have any reason to believe that is going on, but it does seem to be what some folks here are advocating. JTIII already got 4 recruits for next year, he will get at least 3 more the year after that, and all of us, JTIII included, need to be patient about letting him build the roster he would like to build. As much as I am aware of the realities of big time college athletics, I also believe there is a greater responsibility to these young men that comes along with being an institution that aims to educate the entire person. Forcing players out of their scholarships, while not illegal, is not in keeping with the overall philosophy of the university. I don't disagree, Jack. I guess the fuzzy area is also the most likely situation. I'm sure the coach will sit down with each player and go over their strengths, weaknesses, what they need to work on over the summer, and his realistic view of their PT and role in the team next year. If he were to tell a player, "At the level you're at right now, I expect you to have less PT next year than this" or something similar, is that forcing a player out? A player may feel that way; may even say it, but not in my opinion. If the player subsequently leaves, that is still their choice to me. But I doubt all will see it that way.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
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Post by Jack on Apr 3, 2005 16:44:12 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone is owed playing time. And I don't think being honest about how much playing time a player can expect is forcing them to leave. I am simply very uncomfortable with any suggestion that a player lose his scholarship because he is not likely to contribute much during games. It is too bad that there are a few Esherick recruits who are not going to play much, but if they are performing academically, not creating other problems on campus, and content with their limited role, then they get to stay and they get to keep their scholarship- there is never going to be enough PT for 13 guys anyway.
Furthermore, if a student-athlete in question started every game as a walk-on or fulfilled his academic obligations in earning a fifth year while playing very well down the stretch, I prefer to give an available scholarship to that student-athlete over a kid who will not be able to play next year and who has not made the most of his opportunities somewhere else.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,547
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 3, 2005 17:31:19 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the admissions standards debate because frankly Jack has more knowledge about this than most of us.
On a related tangent: a roster is filled with 13 important players. They can't all start and they can't all get PT in all the games. Don't discount the value of the balance of the roster as practice players. Most all of those guys contribute just as much as the starters do, we just aren't around in practice to see it.
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Post by HoyaAtHeart on Apr 4, 2005 8:54:29 GMT -5
Perhaps you all should ask Jeff Green what Ewing Jr. did to him in High school.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Apr 4, 2005 10:09:09 GMT -5
Perhaps you all should ask Jeff Green what Ewing Jr. did to him in High school. For those of us not familiar with your reference, and who will never speak with JG, could you please expound? And what does high school have to do with anything when we're discussing the BE rookie of year?
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DrumsGoBang
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
DrumsGoBang - Bang Bang
Posts: 910
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Apr 4, 2005 10:18:05 GMT -5
JT III is very smart. It usally takes until the 5th year for a coach to have all his own players but what JT III is doing is cutting all the people with no talent from the Esh era and replacing them with transfers and good freshmen. The only people he would play this year were freshmen, Bowman, Cook, and DJ. He'll keep Reed for some odd reason, but bye bye Sead, bye bye Cornillo. Hello new big man and hello PE jr. I'm not saying this is going to happen but cutting people is fun.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Post by nychoya3 on Apr 4, 2005 10:22:43 GMT -5
It's the easiest part of a coach's job. Drumsgobang, you showed a lot of hustle out there. That's why it was so hard to cut you. If Sead goes, I go.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2005 10:32:53 GMT -5
No way Saed goes--you need guys on your bench for practice/moral boosting/for the fans to cheer for in garbage time. Saed fills all those spots. Plus he's goofy looking, which is a huge plus when it comes to being the 10th-13th guy on the bench.
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