Butler claims PFL's first playoff bid

[eb59]

Butler claims PFL's first playoff bid
St. Louis, MO (SportsNetwork.com) - Butler University received the Pioneer Football League's first-ever automatic qualifying bid to the FCS playoffs on Tuesday. Butler won a ranking tiebreaker over Marist. The two teams shared the PFL title after going 7-1 in league games, but they didn't play each other in the 12- member league's unbalanced scheduling


We need to start playing these guys annually and making this into a solid BB / FB rival!

[Problem of Dog]

Almost as awesome as our rivalry with Marist in football.

[CAHoya07]

Seriously, it might be worth looking at what Butler is doing with football. Apparently, they spend even less money on football than we do, and apparently they are getting even better results.

[hounddog]

I feel somewhat qualified to comment on this. I'm a Butler grad and former football player (at the time a scholarship DII school), and as I mentioned in another thread had a son who was a 2013 recruit who was recruited by Butler, Georgetown & Lehigh among others. I am also a Butler basketball and football season ticket holder.

Butler has a very nice thing going. As a former player from an era of offering scholarships I was one of many alums who thought the lack of offering scholarships and the Pioneer League Football model was doomed to failure.....I was wrong. Having an opportunity to make the FCS playoffs as an automatic qualifier has reenergized the program and their coach does a great job of recruiting kids within a tri-state area...ie Indiana/Ohio/Illinois. The "sticker price" to go to Butler is approx. 48k per year, Georgetown 60k per year. Butler limits their roster to approximately 100 kids. Their budget in 2012 was approx. 650k. On the very low end of the FCS schools if not among the lowest. Butler on average will provide the kid a grant or some other aid available to all students and most kids qualify for something. Either academically via a grant or some other aid or financial aid. As I mentioned in a previous thread, we qualified for ZERO financial aid at Georgetown or Butler but the difference is my son would have qualified for some type of academic grant (8-10k) with a 3.7 GPA and a 1,200-1,250 SAT. That doesn't get you anything at Georgetown. Say Butler offers 10k that puts the cost at 38k.....a much more manageable number than potentially 60k.

Butler views their football program this way. Their enrollment is 60% female (4,000 undergrads).....they get 100 males to pay 35-48k, they net 3.5 to 4.8 million (-) 650k football budget and they net anywhere from approx. 2.85 million up to 4.0 million dollars. They make money on their program. They built a new stadium and now with making the playoffs they have a lot of momentum going forward. Butler's basketball program has helped the football program tremendously. It gives the University exposure and kids want to be a part of D-1 program. Parents will pay so their kid can play at a "D-1" program whether its non-scholarship or not...parents will pay those tuition numbers if (a) they have a chance at winning and the FCS playoffs is an added benefit and (b) a school offers something academically a state school may not thus allowing them to justify the cost of the private school vs. the state school. The exact same model exists at Georgetown......build a stadium......check the "Ivy League" mentality at the door (relative to football only)....join a non-scholarship conference....and be instantly competitive. Joining a non-scholarship football conference would in my opinion have ZERO impact on the academic reputation of Georgetown....ZERO. Get over it and get over it quickly. Trying to compete in the Patriot League under the current conditions is not only impossible its downright program suicide.

My two cents from someone with no skin in the game.

[Problem of Dog]

Nov 21, 2013 20:26:17 GMT -5 CAHoya07 said:

Seriously, it might be worth looking at what Butler is doing with football. Apparently, they spend even less money on football than we do, and apparently they are getting even better results.

In a pathetic sham of a football league. It's like the island of misfit FCS toys.

[puppydog100]

Problem of Dog, do you have anything positive to contribute to the discussion?

GU is now non-competitive in the PL.  That is not going to get any better without a change in our commitment to the program.
Moving to a league where we can compete, without breaking the bank, is not a terrible idea.

[Problem of Dog]

Nov 22, 2013 8:48:05 GMT -5 puppydog100 said:

Problem of Dog, do you have anything positive to contribute to the discussion?

GU is now non-competitive in the PL.  That is not going to get any better without a change in our commitment to the program.
Moving to a league where we can compete, without breaking the bank, is not a terrible idea.

The football program would become irrelevant forever, and even more of a joke than it already is, by playing the likes of Valparaiso, Jacksonville and Morehead State every weekend. Georgetown would drop the program before it did that, because then it would not be accomplishing the institutional goals that Healy has set for the football program.

[puppydog100]

Help me out, Problem of Dog, what are the institutional goals of the folks at Healy, other than, just exist and do nothing to enhance the program.  Sounds like a death wish, not an institutional goal.

[CAHoya07]

Nov 22, 2013 15:54:00 GMT -5 puppydog100 said:

Help me out, Problem of Dog, what are the institutional goals of the folks at Healy, other than, just exist and do nothing to enhance the program.  Sounds like a death wish, not an institutional goal.

Well said, puppy dog. I really don't know what's in our administration's heads when it comes to football.

And Hound Dog, thank you very much, very interesting stuff on the comparison between Butler and Georgetown football in regards to cost and aid.

[Problem of Dog]

Nov 22, 2013 15:54:00 GMT -5 puppydog100 said:

Help me out, Problem of Dog, what are the institutional goals of the folks at Healy, other than, just exist and do nothing to enhance the program.  Sounds like a death wish, not an institutional goal.

Russky said it best in the other thread:

"To understand why, you have to understand that the football program's main purpose right now is not to win, but rather just to exist while staying within a limited, acceptable footprint, like at the Ivies. We hold on to football as a tradition because our desired peer institutions hold onto it. It's a program that has some nice history and makes for useful 'back in the day' hagiography, but in the present it is clear that big-time college football is a cesspool and even FCS-level football requires a level of commitment and tradeoffs that do not fit with how the University envisions itself. We make an exception for basketball because it's only 2 dozen players (M & W) and because John Thompson Jr. molded it in a way that we could hold up the program without holding our nose (the deflated basketball, Mary Fenlon, the Proposal 42 protest, etc.). Even now, we lose out on plenty of basketball recruits because we're not willing to go as far in making tradeoffs as many/most high major programs.

One can understand this perspective without too much difficulty. What's going to secure Georgetown's place in the US News Top 20 and ensure that it survives whatever higher ed bubble crashes happen in the coming years/decades is not winning a couple of PL football titles or FCS playoff games, it is ensuring that it's brand is so strong that people will continue paying top dollar to imprint themselves with that brand. There is a growing sense that not only would it require too much in the way of resources to turn football into something that would have a positive impact on that brand.. it may actually be impossible, period, as football's reputation as a sport and a collegiate enterprise continues to look worse and worse."

On top of that, the PFL is a joke and would never benefit a school that anyone has actually ever heard of.

[hounddog]

POD, using your logic, just eliminate the program altogether. Georgetowns football budget would put them at the top of the Pioneer League and they might be instantly competitive yet still allow for 2-3 out of conference games against the beloved "Ivies". Georgetown would have a ton to offer recruits outside of scholarships when compared against their Pioneer League competition.

From a straight football perspective, I'll take winning the Pioneer League and making a trip to the playoffs (even though admittedly they will probably get rolled) vs. getting rolled weekly in a league they can't compete in. The only thing they need to change is to get at a minimum, a standard "high school" level stadium. If Butler can raise money for a football stadium I have a hard time believing Georgetown can't.

For the record, football only exists at Butler for many of the same reason it exists at Georgetown. In Butler's case, a large majority of their football alums are some of the university's bigger donors. Butler's only priority is their basketball program, same as GTown. Invest in football and it pays dividends down the roads......It's simple math.....but then again I'm a Butler grad.....what the hell would I know.

[FrazierFanatic]

Sooooo - we stink because everybody that plays competitive football is either dirty or makes huge "tradeoffs" to do so, and we won't sink to that level. And yet the rest of the Patriot League can commit to programs that can compete without compromising integrity? Or are they all sacrificing integrity to be successful? And what part of "tradition" is upheld by being a doormat? I'm confused.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 21, 2013 20:26:17 GMT -5 CAHoya07 said:

Seriously, it might be worth looking at what Butler is doing with football. Apparently, they spend even less money on football than we do, and apparently they are getting even better results.

Actually, they don't.

While Butler can't offer athletic scholarships in football, students can take advantage of the Butler "Freshman Scholarship Program", which awards students merit grants of $6000-$16,000 to incoming players based on high school GPA and other factors. All but one Pioneer school offers the opportunity of merit aid except Davidson, and they're 0-11 this year.

Georgetown can't offer merit aid. and will sooner go I-A than develop merit-based financial aid in our lifetimes. The financial aid packaging Georgetown does provide under the Patiot (i.e., buying out the loan portion of a financial aid offer) would not be allowed in the Pioneer, essentially leaving Georgetown the players that a) can't get a scholarship elsewhere, b) can't get a free ride from the Ivies, or c) can afford paying full fare to play football because there are no merit aid grants. The Hoyas would essentialy be recruiting alongside whomever didn't go to Marist.

Better results? Maybe this year, but don't forget Butler plays just one scholarship opponent a year and got wins over two Division III schools. Of Georgetown's 11 opponents this season, seven offered scholarships and all were in Division I.

Nov 22, 2013 15:54:00 GMT -5 puppydog100 said:

Help me out, Problem of Dog, what are the institutional goals of the folks at Healy, other than, just exist and do nothing to enhance the program.  Sounds like a death wish, not an institutional goal.

There are institutional goals for each sport and, disquieting as it may seem, football is meeting those goals.

Back in the 1980's, a three tier setup was used to classify sports at Georgetown:

1. "National Sports"--teams that are fully funded in scholarships and coaching, played national opponents, and had a stated goal to compete for NCAA championships. Basketball and track were the defined national sports then, although lacrosse and soccer are also in that group today.

2. "Regional Sports"--teams that were only partially funded, played a regional schedule, and competed for conference championships without the expectation of NCAA-level success. This is the group football was in, along with golf, rowing, volleyball, and sailing, although sailing is clearly above this level now even if it not fully funded.

3. "Local Sports"--teams that were not siginificantly funded by Georgetown, played primarily local opponents, and where conference championships were "not necessarily a program goal". The Big East travel schedule has made this criteria somewhat archaic, but this group once contained baseball, field hockey, tennis, and swimming.

Former AD Bernard Muir scrapped this tiering, proclaiming that all Georgetown sports were "national", but that was neither accurate nor realistic. Whether this exists in practice anymore is not as important as understanding as football has its place at Georgetown, but it's neither at the bottom nor the top of the food chain.

[CAHoya07]

Nov 23, 2013 16:06:29 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Better results? Maybe this year, but don't forget Butler plays just one scholarship opponent a year and got wins over two Division III schools. Of Georgetown's 11 opponents this season, seven offered scholarships and all were in Division I.

Good points, DFW, I guess this was a misunderstanding of one of your previous posts that I thought Butler spent drastically less on their football program that we do. Your above quote especially rings true though - today's win notwithstanding, it appears we are increasingly out of our league in the PL, and we need a new conference home and a new schedule where we play less scholarship opponents and more "peer football programs."

Speaking of "peer football programs"... which schools are those? Is there a school out there whose program we can emulate? I hope so, because if not, it will forever feel like we are just drifting along in the wilderness, with no clear direction.

Just please don't say the Ivy League, because while I hope we continue to schedule them out of conference (I think we've played everyone in the last ten years or so except Dartmouth and Columbia), I think we all know that the Ivy League is never going to expand to become the "Ancient Nine" in football. And as I've stated before, I don't think Georgetown would work well as an FCS independent.

[jgalt]

Nov 23, 2013 22:26:31 GMT -5 CAHoya07 said:

Speaking of "peer football programs"... which schools are those? Is there a school out there whose program we can emulate? I hope so, because if not, it will forever feel like we are just drifting along in the wilderness, with no clear direction.

Similarly, are there other conferences that have different (non-) scholarship models that might fit better for gtown? Not that they should move league, I am just wondering what the other set ups are in different leagues.

[RusskyHoya]

Nov 23, 2013 10:55:10 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Sooooo - we stink because everybody that plays competitive football is either dirty or makes huge "tradeoffs" to do so, and we won't sink to that level.

In terms of super-competitive football, that's basically true, with the exception of Stanford and maybe Duke and Northwestern. Not coincidentally, their endowments dwarf ours: Duke is around $6 billion, Northwestern clocks in somewhere north of $7 billion, while Stanford is sitting pretty at $18.7 billion. That sort of resource base allows them to effectively compete for the tiny group of football players who are both top-flight talent and academically outstanding. No, not all of them are Andrew Luck (high school valedictorian), nor does everyone from this cohort go to one of these three schools (e.g. Craig Krenzel, molecular genetics major at The Ohio State, or Myron Rolle). But the list of FBS programs that is committed to making this type of player the rule, rather than the exception, is very small indeed. And with the concussion issue continuing to move to the forefront, I expect this cohort of players to only shrink going forward.

That's before we get into all the issues with payoffs and other sleazy recruiting tactics, covering up athlete crimes, operating with little to no effective institutional oversight, etc. etc. that are prevalent - and fast becoming pandemic - across FBS and even the upper tiers of FCS.

Nov 23, 2013 10:55:10 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

And yet the rest of the Patriot League can commit to programs that can compete without compromising integrity?

Football programs, sort of (Patriot League success across FCS is mixed at best), but within the context that their football programs are receiving a much bigger slice of the institutional pie, even if their pie is smaller than ours.

Keep in mind, the Patriot League long held to a standard of being non-scholarship across all sports, and even as they've been relaxing that somewhat, it is still the case that most of their sports are significantly under-resourced compared to other D-I programs. They also generally offer fewer sports than Georgetown does. One reason Holy Cross has found itself at the bottom of the league right now is because it has to spread the wealth around 25 sports, even at a Patriot League level.

One of the deals the Patriot League football institutions made with themselves is that they would be following a model that by-and-large eliminates them from the running for national-level success. Of the 31 schools at the women's NCAA XC Tournament this weekend, zero were from the Patriot League. Same thing on the men's side. The men's soccer Patriot League champ is Navy, where every student is on full scholarship (and, indeed, is being paid a salary). The women's soccer champ is BU, which doesn't have a football program to worry about. And so on and so forth.

Nov 23, 2013 10:55:10 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Or are they all sacrificing integrity to be successful?

The Patriot League purists certainly might say so, but really it has much more to do with resource allocation and distribution.

Nov 23, 2013 10:55:10 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

And what part of "tradition" is upheld by being a doormat? I'm confused.

The "existence" part. Universities aren't big on closing down/getting rid of anything - it is seen as a sign of institutional weakness and instability. Basically, we're trying to operate a hybrid of Northwestern/Stanford/Duke nationally competitive athletics (as DFW alluded to) with Ivy League-style football and proliferation of sports programs. All with a resource base significantly smaller than any of those schools. You get what you pay for.

[indianhoop]

One reason Holy Cross has found itself at the bottom of the league right now is because it has to spread the wealth around 25 sports, even at a Patriot League level.

This. Not that it's "right or wrong" (I'll let the philosophers sort that out) but when I was at HC in the 80s the only sports that were truly D1 were football, basketball and baseball. Many, if not all, of the Olympic sports were playing very regional D2 or D3 schedules (including hockey which is now D1).

It's probably the "correct" league for HC to be in given its size, academic peers etc etc but it has severely hamstrung HC to be ever considered "national in scope' in athletics ever again.