TBird41
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"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 5, 2005 12:02:38 GMT -5
I think RDF and TBird are falling in love... Listening to you two pat each other on the back after every post is reaching Enberg-ian levels of... well you get the point. If you're sick of it, just say Garnett is a franchise player/not a franchise player. That'll break it up right quick. ;D
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Post by IlliniNYC on Apr 5, 2005 12:20:36 GMT -5
RDF...I'm here for my crow. Illinois inside game is much, much better than what was shown last night. But alas, I can say it until I'm blue in the face, and it doesn't mean anything if it isn't there when it counts. Augustine reverted to his freshman year reach-in fouls and that was bascially the game. Without him in there, there was no chance at defending May or having any sort of consistency in the motion offense. Why the guys threw out the cutting and curling like they had been doing all year, we will never know. I can confidently say it was not a result of UNC's defense. The number of open looks guys got, even just on ball reveral and not even off screens, was insane. Hit a couple of those in the last 10 minutes of the first half and the inside would have opened back up. But again, what ifs, don't make me feel much better today. Brown played a poor game. I think it was the fact that Felton had similar (not as much but cimilar) speed, but had height and strength on him. Brown was very frustrated all night. I guess if you don't like the motion offense, then you don't like it. When these guys were running it right for most of the season, it was a thing of beauty. Last night, once things got desperate, the screens got aggressive and started moving. They weren't called so, they moved some more. I won't complain about the officiating, neither will I allow those screens to be held against the team. The screens weren't bad until the end of the game and they weren't bad the rest of the season, so I doubt there will be any big "focus" on the Illini's moving screens. Start by looking a Knight and K...those are the screens that really move. Finally, as a life-long Illini fan, this was the greatest season. Shame they couldn't close it out, but it was amazing to watch such disciplined and entertaining basketball all season and a group of guys that are immensely likeable. ...now we have to see if Weber can recruit Oh yeah, another thing...please forgive the jacket. I know it was ugly and orange, but it is a tradition for Illini coaches and while the rest of you may laugh (rightly so) at it, it works for the Illini nation and we're glad he did it.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 5, 2005 13:41:17 GMT -5
I agree with much of RDF's and TBird's analysis, but I would like to put in a good word for Powell, who didn't receive mention from either of you. That kid can play on my team any time. He just plain outhustled UNC for a bunch of rebounds, particularly on the offensive end. Over the two Final Four games, I thought he was by far Illinois' best player. I think he exemplifies the heart that RDF was referring to.
Also, it's not fair to put Illinois' turnover in the final minute (their only turnover of the half!) in the same class as Fred Brown's. Felton at least stepped in to the passing lane. Freddie threw the ball to an out of position Worthy who had pretty much taken himself out of the play.
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Post by ][-][ 0 `/ /-\ 5 on Apr 5, 2005 13:52:27 GMT -5
And what about Ingram? That guy really showed up and played once he got in there hitting jumpers and destroying UNC on the offensive glass. How the hell do you get 16 offense rebounds and only take 6 frigging free throws. I know that they shot 40 3's but you'd think that with that many rebounds coupled with going inside maybe 2 or 3 times the whole game they might get at least 10 free throws. Just thought Ingram deserved some respect...
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Apr 5, 2005 14:11:08 GMT -5
[-][ 0 `/ /-\ 5 link=board=general&thread=1111979917&start=43#2 date=1112727147]And what about Ingram? That guy really showed up and played once he got in there hitting jumpers and destroying UNC on the offensive glass. How the hell do you get 16 offense rebounds and only take 6 frigging free throws. I know that they shot 40 3's but you'd think that with that many rebounds coupled with going inside maybe 2 or 3 times the whole game they might get at least 10 free throws. Just thought Ingram deserved some respect... UNC got all the calls last night. Just like Duke did before. There were times May was barely touched and they would call fouls. Then Powell, Jr. of Illinois would get hacked and thrown to the ground and the refs called nothing. The whole crowd was booing the refs for that. The NCAA wanted UNC to win which explains the "traveling" call against Villanova when they played UNC.
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Post by Nitrorebel on Apr 5, 2005 14:44:26 GMT -5
TBird, I was thinking the same about the Ill 2nd half - looks like we did when we were playing poorly this year. 3s should never be the focal point of an offense, but instead be used to keep the defense honest. This is not Ill's offense tho. They usually mix it up much more but seemed to have the deer in the headlights look last night. And UNC got all the calls - AGAIN. Powell was being abused and didn't get a FT. And that Enberg poem about FREE THROWS??!!! Did he really spend 5 minutes waxing philosophical - or should I say jerking homoerotical (not a word but rhymes) - about FREE THROWS. I hate the ACC.
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Post by ][-][ 0 `/ /-\ 5 on Apr 5, 2005 14:53:39 GMT -5
UNC got all the calls last night. Just like Duke did before. There were times May was barely touched and they would call fouls. Then Powell, Jr. of Illinois would get hacked and thrown to the ground and the refs called nothing. The whole crowd was booing the refs for that. The NCAA wanted UNC to win which explains the "traveling" call against Villanova when they played UNC. I felt UNC was getting MOST of the calls with May being able to bang while the Illini big men were getting called for touchy reaches. But Ill still didn't go down low enough. The worst sequence was when Powell put up about 4 shots in a row while constantly being hit. It was ridiculous at points but while it wasn't as bad as the (-insert expletive-) commentaters made it seem there were illegal picks going on. Theres no excuse for 16 rebounds and 6 free throws whether its refs ofr the team.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 5, 2005 15:10:22 GMT -5
As an observer who hates the ACC and Big 10, I watched with total unbiased viewpoint and what I saw was: 1. Team who played basketball correctly and aggressively get the calls--you go inside out and May was allowed to play as he should've been. 2. Team who hoisted stupid 40 3 pt shots and refused to attack didn't get calls. 3. Teams who are more aggressive get the calls--unless you play against Duke. 4. Illini still had chance to win and refused to take the proper shots--and focused on 3pt shot despite fact they were 10/12 from 2 pt range. They win if they run pick and roll with Williams and Ingram with Powell on weakside to rebound but problem was Powell and Ingram were outside setting picks for their shooters and never rolled to hoop. 5. Illinois gets away with illegal screens all the time and the posters who talk about Knight and Duke are right too. They all do. But Illinois shouldn't change if it's not called, they were smart to keep doing it. 6. Find it odd that Packer decided to "point out" the illegal screens when the game got tied up instead of when UNC was up 15. Maybe it's because Cryin' Roy would need an excuse to help him explain his colossal mistakes on the bench?? 7. Between Enberg's queer poem on Free Throws (on Sunday at Masters it will be about the weather or Mickleson's man boobs) and the Nantz/Packer obsession with making Marvin Williams into a Star, I don't know what was more annoying. 8. Powell and Ingram were good, but they did what they do--for Ingram that's hit face up jumpers and board and for Powell it's being a good role player. 9. Jackie Manuel was named Defensive Player of the Year in the ACC--or First Team All ACC Defense---either way that is all that needs to be said about that league and what's perceived as defense--he was about as worthless in the 2 games as a player could be. 10. Investigations are ongoing that Enberg stole videotape from CBS production truck when McCants ran around with his shirt off at the end. Enberg was going to analyze it for future "poems" and in tribute to Lundquist's man crush on Duhon "what a player, what a man" it'd be "OH-My--look at the Shirtless GUY". Also, Greg Gumbel is still trying to figure out where in Indiana St. Louis is located, and someone tricked Packer into saying his name backwards so he had to return to Mr. Myxlepik Land--the evil little man from Superfriends Cartoon who could only be defeated by tricking him into saying his name backwards. Clark Kellogg was seen inventing a new phrase "Clueless idiotious" as he was wrong on just about anything he said and predicted. Seth Davis is nominating Jay Williams to replace him and as someone pointed out last week during McDonalds All American game, his commentating made me think they let a kid from Ronald McDonald House comment as a gift/reward instead of a former player. He was that bad and amateurish and wannabe Tom Selleck Tim McCormick was just as strange in analyzing Dunks and still worshipping Lebron James "peformance" in a High School All Star Game.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Apr 5, 2005 15:54:45 GMT -5
On Jackie Manuel: Thank you for bringing up his extrordinary suckiness. Everyone talks about his great defense, but that's only because they asume he must be a great defender to play as much as he does with his awful offensive game. Make it four straight games of getting torched, because Alando Tucker of Wisconsin abused him mercilessly, and Randy Foye and the rest of the Nova guards ran around him like he was standing still. I don't have a clue what Roy Williams is thinking playing him over Marvin Williams, let alone David Noel. Whatever.
Well said about May and the calls. Pretty well ref-ed game on the whole. It'd be cheap to start calling moving screens late in the second half. And UNC earned a little leeway by actually, you know, taking the ball in the general direction of the basket occasionally.
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Post by IlliniNYC on Apr 5, 2005 17:13:53 GMT -5
[-][ 0 `/ /-\ 5 link=board=general&thread=1111979917&start=46#3 date=1112730819] I felt UNC was getting MOST of the calls with May being able to bang while the Illini big men were getting called for touchy reaches. But Ill still didn't go down low enough. The worst sequence was when Powell put up about 4 shots in a row while constantly being hit. It was ridiculous at points but while it wasn't as bad as the (-insert expletive-) commentaters made it seem there were illegal picks going on. Theres no excuse for 16 rebounds and 6 free throws whether its refs ofr the team. I won't use the officials as an excuse, because Illinois played a horrendous first half (worst of the year) and never ran the motion like they usually do (against a below average defensive team, too). Frustrating as hell. And for the record, as the "poster", Illinois did not set illegal screens all year and becuase they did in a desperate situation and got away with it, doesn't open the door for criticism of a very, very well-run motion offense.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 5, 2005 17:54:36 GMT -5
I don't remember a lot of illegal screens when they played us.
I do remember that St. John's entire offense consisted of moving screens -- basically pushing the defender out of the way.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 5, 2005 18:44:45 GMT -5
9. Jackie Manuel was named Defensive Player of the Year in the ACC--or First Team All ACC Defense---either way that is all that needs to be said about that league and what's perceived as defense--he was about as worthless in the 2 games as a player could be.
Good Lord. I about fell off my chair reading that. Jackie Manual is terrible. The only thing he excels at defensively is picking up fouls. He and Augustine could have competed for stiff of the night, only Augustine just had a really bad game, and Manual had his usual game, so I guess Manual wins.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 5, 2005 18:49:33 GMT -5
Illinois sets a lot of moving screens--they didn't have to against most opponents because their guards were good enough to get shots off but against teams with talent, they have their bigs step out, set pick, and roll into defender which is illegal. Most teams get away with this too--not just Illinois. It's illegal to "block" someone and move into them. You can drill them but have to be set but this has gone the way of the Coach's Box--it's never called and should be. I didn't mean to single out illinois but watching them play Arizona, Louisville, and UNC they used this technique in all of the games and game tying shot against Arizona is a perfect example. WAtch Ingram on Wildcat defender--he drills the guy with a shoulder moving sideways.
SJU always does things illegally--it's the Carnasecca influence. Moving picks, traveling is SJU's best weapon of choice be it a Willie Glass of old days, or Showtime Hill of today.
One thing I noticed last night was how people get credit for playing "Great defense" and basically don't do a damn thing to deserve it. Seth Davis had made some good comments most of the tournament but he gave UNC credit for their defense in First Half and they did nothing but watch Illinois miss wide open 3's--which they made at start of 2nd HAlf and then proceeded to miss more as game continued. Missing 3's requires very little defense when someone is hoisting up 40 attempts. It's same thing with Illinois--I watched Big 10 basketball as I live in area to see enough games. There aren't many people in the league who can take you to the basket or have good post up games. When Illini faced Arizona, Hassan Adams was scoring at will with his superior athleticism and Channing Frye dominated. Ellis Myles and other Louisville players took ball to hole strong and were even with them and then resorted to Pitino ball--which SUCKS by the way, and last night May dominated down low and Felton got to any spot he wanted--which was disappointing because I expected more out of Dee Brown defensively.
In Big 10, Illini's guards were clearly better than anything else in the league. Kammron Taylor is the only guard who was quick enough to play with Illini guards in terms of speed/athleticism. Jeff Horner sucks and is a lazy player. Drew Neitzel is young and had a bad habit of dribbling in place and not going anywhere, TJ Parker isn't bad but he plays in deliberate offense, PSU, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Purdue, Ohio St, all had slow guards or non threatening players. Bracey Wright sucks, and IU shoots too many 3's as well. Vince Grier is okay and did well in rematch with Illini but Aaron Robinson is a marginal player.
Then I watched College Sports network, and they showed an old Duke-SJU game from 1985 Preseason NIT. Tommy Amaker and Johnny Dawkins really ragged MArk Jackson. I mean they got up in your face, slid their feet, and hounded him with good defense. Duke's first Final 4 team under Coach K did play good defense--they actually defended and deflected passes, etc... and someone like Gene Smith was unreal hounding the ball. Ricky Moore from Uconn was good in that role as well.
What's happened to REALLY good defensive players/defense? Why don't kids slide their feet and get up in kids faces. Ball handling is not that much better. I think Conditioning and Defensive stances have suffered more than anything in just noticing the difference in 20 years of basketball. Kids don't get in a stance or slide their feet, they reach, flop, and "funnel you to help" even though that often isn't there.
I bring this up because I see a kids like Dee Brown and Raymond Felton and they have outstanding speed and quickness and could do this if they dedicated themselves, but they don't get after it. I would put the performance Ray Reed had against UConn as one of the finest on ball defensive displays I've seen in long time. He was all over Marcus Williams and sparked a comeback by being a PEST. What happened to that type of player? And you can't tell me there isn't a place for defensive player in today's game because it wins games more than anything. Hoyas play defense like they did against Uconn in last 5 minutes, and they will be back on top quicker than you can imagine because nobody else is really getting after it---UConn blocks shots, but shot blocking is an aspect of defense--not great defense. Hurrying shots, and deflections is a much better sign of defense in my opinion. It means you are playing as a TEAM, forcing pressure upon your opponents, and locking them up for an extended period of time which wears on them mentally.
Jackie Manuel couldn't guard me with his poor technique. David Noel is UNC's best defensive player in my opinion. He's not bad. Everyone else stinks on their team in terms of playing defense. Problem was this year they dind't have to--because there wasn't anyone who could really threaten them--Nova should've beaten them and would've if Sumpter wasn't hurt, but they relied on 3 way too much as well and that makes a bad defensive team better because you don't have to guard that--it's low percentage basketball.
Deron Williams is a good defender and best I saw in Final 4 but rest of Illini weren't as advertised in terms of defense. When you play in a bad league, teams dont' score on you for a reason. Outside of Wisconsin and MSU the Big 10 sucked. And Badgers aren't an offensive juggernaut which speaks to how poor UNC plays defense--Kammron Taylor and Alando Tucker drove on them all game.
APB for DEFENSE and let's just hope Hoyas play that pressure style again because it's path to top if you ask me.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Apr 5, 2005 20:28:19 GMT -5
Excellent post RDF (though I miss the rants - I'll mention something about KG at the end of the post!) 1) Got to defend my boy Alando Tucker - he will be one of the best players in the B10 next year. He can get to the bucket on anyone - but you're right, Manuel sucks on defense. 2) I agree completely on Ray Reed. His defense in that game reminded me of John Lineham (sp?), that small kid who played point for PC a couple years back. He couldn't shoot either, but he got in the opposing team's face and just wouldn't go away. He didn't try to flop or reach - he just put his chest to his guy and wouldn't let him beat him to a spot. I love player's like that, and they're so few and far between. Players have no urgency on defense for most of the game. 3) Isn't KG awesome?
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Post by IlliniNYC on Apr 6, 2005 8:49:47 GMT -5
Alando Tucker frightens me next year. He is going to be very, very good.
Deron and Luther are the best on-ball defenders in the Big Ten. I never thought Dee was that great of a defender. He works very hard and is quick enough to make some spectacular plays...I guess those are the ones people remember.
The reason Illinois gets credit for defense is that the team plays with a good deal of intensity and works pretty well together. Its not that individually they are amazing defenders, but they play team defense with intensity, which, while not like defensive teams of old, still will take a team pretty far.
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