DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 2, 2005 23:20:10 GMT -5
Haven't seen two yawners like that in a Final Four in quite a while.
I hate Nance and Packer - and hate that CBS has gone Fox with in-game show promos etc. I was thrilled to hear that Roy Williams was going to put on short pants and play in the championship game Monday as well (when will those two stop their coach worship? They are becoming quiet Dookie V's). It was nice to see Pitino state the obvious in his postgame interview: despite Packer's incessant whining about Louisville's zone, Pitino knew his team couldn't guard Illinois man-to-man and said Illinois was the better team.
Game was much better with the sound off and the radio feed of Kevin Harlan, John Thompson, and Bill Raftery.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 3, 2005 2:39:34 GMT -5
That Illinois-Louisville game was a STINKER with a capital YUCK!!! To me it's also evident that 3pt line needs to be moved back---too much perimeter shooting and in at least half the sets for both teams there wasn't a player in the paint. That sucks in my opinion. I think CBB is a great game to watch and the different styles are what make it so great, but for God's sake the fact teams are building their entire offense around that damn line is beyond sickening.
Illini did a better job of adjusting and taking higher percentage shots in 2nd Half but I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who sees that if you would either drive/post up on them, you could score almost every time down the floor. Great defense isn't when you have a Pitino oriented offense missing shots, it's when you get up in someone and guard them. Illinois was outclassed by Arizona and didn't deserve to win that game. I really think they're in for a difficult time of it against UNC simply because May will eat them alive as have every decent big they faced--be it a Terrence Dials from Ohio State, or Channing Frye from Arizona. But that's problem--those are only two I can name because Illini havent' had to play a lot of tough teams.
I've seen this year in CBB as a fun year, but not great. It's fun that games have been competitive but the quality of play has me scratching my head a bit. If these Final 4 teams played in last year's Tourney, I highly doubt any make it past Sweet 16--if not 2nd Round exits. It's a mediocre year for talent and while Illinois and UNC deserve credit for getting to where they are and won't have to apologize for winning on Monday, I sure hope this type of play is an aberration and not the norm.
I thought Pitino did a horrible job of coaching. He should've fed Ellis Myles more and worked some post ups for Palacios who was as productive as I was---but he was in attendance so that hurt Cards.
Second game was more fun to watch but again, where's the defense from UNC?? All the talk of "not being able to win by outscoring your opponent" will be thrown out the window on Monday--Illinois can't defend the paint and UNC can't defend---period. MSU reverted back to Big 10 basketball--can't hit shots--and Izzo should've slowed pace and made UNC work harder on defense as Seth Davis pointed out.
Oh well, should be fun on Monday, but from what I've seen it's not great basketball as hyped--it's entertaining with mediocrity and mistakes reigning.
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Post by IlliniNYC on Apr 4, 2005 13:02:53 GMT -5
RDF, not trying to pick a fight, just offering the other argument on a couple of points. I really think they're in for a difficult time of it against UNC simply because May will eat them alive as have every decent big they faced--be it a Terrence Dials from Ohio State, or Channing Frye from Arizona. But that's problem--those are only two I can name because Illini havent' had to play a lot of tough teams. To be fair, Channing was the first big to "eat" Illinois big men alive, and I think that most Illinois fans would argue that the Arizona game was one of the lesser performances of the team all season - not because of Channing, but because of a rare lack of intensity on the defensive end and a slightly less rare lack of patience on the offensive end. I think one could argue that though Arizona outplayed the Illini for 16 minutes in the second half, Illinois final 4 minutes and the overtime earned a little of that "class" back. My argument on thebig men: Many games this season were supposed to be "the game" when Illinois interior was exposed, and one after another Illinois somehow managed to find the ability to play inside. Augustine and Powell are above average big-guys on a team led by guards. Turaif was supposed to be first. Then came Eric Williams. Next up was Linas Kleiza (probably the best big man performance against Illinois prior to Frye). Maxiell and Hicks were certain to be the ones. Dials first attempt resulted in 7 pts and 6 rbs (second was significantly better at 21 and 8 - but it was Sylvester's shooting that was the difference (25 pts from a reserve who averages 8). Paul Davis, Mike Wilkenson (believe it or not the Big Ten actually has some good players), etc. My only point is that Augustine and Powell are not pushovers. They are actually quite talented interior players, without whom, Illinois would not be in the title game. but from what I've seen it's not great basketball as hyped--it's entertaining with mediocrity and mistakes reigning. Just one point of disagreement here - I watch a ton of college ball and granted I am highly biased, but this Illinois team is one of the most entertaining teams I have seen in a very long time. Shooting percentage and assist to turnover ratio are two great indicators of just how much *good* basketball this team plays. But the real indicator and the one thing that non-Illinois and non-Big Ten people have really only started to talk about the last two weeks is absolutely stifling team defense and the ability for Williams and Head to lock down bigger, more athletic guys with stunning consistency. Can Illinois beat UNC? Sure. Will they? Who knows. That's the beauty of one and done...but either way, 38-1 or 37-2 requires showing up every single day and beating a lot of good and some very good teams.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 4, 2005 13:05:44 GMT -5
Head absolutely locked down Brandon. That was about the point we started to do nothing versus Illinois.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2005 20:13:21 GMT -5
Bill Self just busted out the "there are 5 fingers in a hand. When they're all together, they make a fist. And a fist is much stronger than a hand. We need to be a like a fist tonight" Pregame Speech.
It's the National Championship Game and that's the best he can come up with for a pregame speech? I don't feel so good about my pick of Illinois anymore...
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2005 20:56:25 GMT -5
Bill Self just busted out the "there are 5 fingers in a hand. When they're all together, they make a fist. And a fist is much stronger than a hand. We need to be a like a fist tonight" Pregame Speech. It's the National Championship Game and that's the best he can come up with for a pregame speech? I don't feel so good about my pick of Illinois anymore... Yeah, but the Century 21 jacket will overcome that inadequacy.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2005 21:12:35 GMT -5
Illinois played scared in that first half. Rushed shots galore. Not much defense. A recipe for a loss if they keep this up.
Oh yes, and some more of that really satisfying Packer-Nance rooting.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2005 22:20:55 GMT -5
Billy: "there was McCants, just makin' a play" ~translation~ Williams saves McCants from a totally out of control drive and wild 'shot' - the kind of thing certain Hoya guards get excoriated for on this board... Anybody notice the wildly inconsistent Big East refereeing crew?
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Apr 4, 2005 22:27:49 GMT -5
Shades of Freddy Brown on Luther Head's TO.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 4, 2005 22:29:02 GMT -5
Shades of Freddy Brown on Luther Head's TO. Thought the same thing...
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2005 22:29:21 GMT -5
Shades of Freddy Brown on Luther Head's TO. ...only minimal shades - that's why they teach the bounce pass... We did a lousy job of picking the winner in our poll, didn't we?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 4, 2005 22:31:33 GMT -5
Hard to believe that it was three years ago that UNC was 8-20.
Two years ago that UNC was knocked out of the NIT by Georgetown.
One year ago that UNC was a .500 team in the ACC and an early NCAA exit.
Let the off season begin.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Apr 4, 2005 22:44:10 GMT -5
Hard to believe that it was three years ago that UNC was 8-20. Two years ago that UNC was knocked out of the NIT by Georgetown. One year ago that UNC was a .500 team in the ACC and an early NCAA exit. Let the off season begin. I was thinking about that around the time they played in the Elite 8. Quite a remarkable turnaround that turned out to be--anyone still have visions of that Davidson loss or the near-miss at home to Binghamton? The Georgetown-UNC NIT Elite 8 game is one of my favorites since I've been to GTown. I still think it's one of the top 5 performances the team put on in the four years I was there, just an incredible game that at times was played at a breathtaking pace. I remember Bowman going coast to coast on something like 4 dribbles(!) and of course Hall's three at the end. I liked Drew Hall. That was also Matt Doherty's last game wasn't it? 6 UNC players played in that game and also played tonight. There's one BIG guy who didn't play in 2003 though... northcarolina.scout.com/2/101526.html(EDIT: This makes 5 Final Four appearances and 2 National Titles for the schools I chose GTown over since the day I got my acceptance letter on April Fool's Day 2000. Funny how that worked out--totally random coincidence.)
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Gold Hoya
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Post by Gold Hoya on Apr 4, 2005 23:02:28 GMT -5
Shades of Freddy Brown on Luther Head's TO. I hope JT got up from radio row to give Luther a hug.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2005 23:27:54 GMT -5
What is it with these hillbilly schools and their BONFIRES?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 4, 2005 23:48:50 GMT -5
I hate the ACC as much as anyone but I've got to say tonight was a WIN for solid basketball over 3 point gunning. 40 Damn shots from 3 pt land?? That's NOT what the sport is about and Illinois wasn't the better team and they didn't deserve to win this game. That damn 3pt line needs to be moved back to make it a legit shot and not ruin the sport. I'll just say this--Illinois shoots 10-12 from 2 pt range in 2nd Half and kept shooting the 3, why?? It's CRAP BASKETBALL.
As for comments on the game itself:
1. Illinois plays good defense inside? I call HORSECRAP on that. They've played two good teams and 2 good bigs and were killed down low by both--Frye and May and were taken out of their game in both. The refs helped them once and tonight they lost to the better team--which would've happened against Arizona on a true neutral court.
2. Illinois has a lot of heart/guts, that's something that almost let them pull this one out.
3. UNC players getting tired at this point in the season? UNBELIEVABLE. Get your butts in shape. It's April and you should be able to run/play all night.
4. Illinois will be focus in offseason of illegal screens. They set it fine, but then move and turn into the opposition which is ILLEGAL. Remember this next year when we're about to play them in Champaign.
5. Greg Gumbel, Billy Packer, and Nantz were AWFUL. Gumbel was terrible at the Half and Packer and Nantz are obsessed with SAME phrases anc commentary each game.
6. Bruce Weber's behavior was again deplorable. Get the damn coaches off the friggin court!!
7. Rashad McCants went about as gutless as you could perform in 2nd Half. Lucky the Heels pulled it out or he'd be getting more crap and deservedly so.
8. Marvin Williams obsession is beyond odd, it's reaching ENBERG--ian homoerotic poem level.
9. Roy Williams allowed Illinois in game as much as Illini's grit---he should realize all they do is shoot 3's and why even defend them down low. I'd NEVER double them either--they only face up and shoot jumpers. A few times they drove only to kick out for the 3 and on a friggin 3 on 1 break, they fire a terrible off balance 3?? UGH. Williams proceeds to rest May, let them get momentum and act as if they've got Shaq playing and letting Illinois run the same play over and over to shoot 3's off curls.
10. As for my Big 10 bashing, all I can say is that once again my issue isn't with the top teams, but I will point out that a DEPLETED Villanova team played UNC tougher than Illinois did and had more of an argument that they deserved to win against Heels. Big 10's best were overmatched and only thing that kept Illini in game was their heart--which I do applaud. Great effort and comeback--gutty shooters but not a great team. A great team consists of being able to beat you in many ways, and not just hoisting 3 pt shots up against overmatched teams. If you can't defend the paint and don't score in there, you eventually will come up short.
And for the "Motion" offense--all I see are guys running around the arc, illegal screens set, and good perimeter passing. Every once in a while they run a curl play on baseline to get a cheap hoop. Motion means people move, you go inside out, and go to the hoop--not just fire passes, skip passes and launch friggin 40 3 pt shots. That is not an offense I ever want to see Hoyas use. Illinois played 2 good teams and got a few breaks to pull one out, and then lost to the other. And yes I know they played Louisville, but I wasn't impressed with Cards--or Pitino ball which is same junk--fire 3's and ignore paint.
Maybe it's my old age, but I'll take inside-out, and versatile attacking offense over the 3 pt hoisting I've seen from some of these teams. I just dont' find it to be entertaining to shoot that many shots from 3 and seeing 5 guys set up outside of the paint isn't how the game is meant to be played. Then Weber has nerve to complain about play in paint--May destroyed his guys because they don't know how to defend paint because they never have to--when they do face good bigs on GOOD TEAMS they get drilled. By good teams, I'm talking of those with more than 2 options and in Big 10 I can only say Michigan State has that and Paul Davis is an enigma. Mike Wilkinson plays facing basket more than in paint, and that's why a small, limited player like Greg Brunner had big games against them.
Better team won and better style of basketball won. Unfortunately they are from the league I despise more than anything in CBB.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2005 23:53:18 GMT -5
That Illinois offense reminded me a lot of Georgetown's first half offense for most of this year. Swing it around, swing it back, throw up a 3 pt shot. Of course, Illinois was a lot better at making three pointers than the Hoyas this year.
Sean May destroyed the Illini tonight and I agree with you RDF-if Roy Williams keeps him in, UNC blows out Illinois. But then again, May still has a lot of fat on his body. IF he ever gets turns that into muscle...
Then again, if he won't do it when he's playing for a contract, why would he after he has one??
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 5, 2005 0:02:57 GMT -5
Great point T-Bird--how can you not get in better shape when you have a future in sport? It's amazing and while May was outstanding and clearly performed the best in Tournament, he shouldn't have to leave game in April due to being tired.
As for your assessment of Illini offense--BINGO. You said it better than I and it's type of basketball that got Hoyas behind--and yes Illini have better shooters than GU but they were getting spanked as well. I just dont' understand going for 3's when you are tied with 2 minutes---take the TWO!
Awful, just awful attack and what's that say of Weber as a coach that he'd allow this after calling out UNC saying "All we need to do is pass it around for 30 seconds and we'll score". NOT if you take 40 3's for friggin sake!!! Shoot the TWO!!
I also thought Cryin' Roy's obsession with playing Marvin Williams let Illini back in game--he was crappy for most of game and his tip in was easy and uncontested but Packer and Nantz have the memo that you're supposed to hype him beyond belief.
Also though Dee Brown was clearly outplayed by Felton, despite not much difference in points. Felton controlled game and came up with big plays--Deron Williams was fabulous as was Luther Head but Brown was so-so. Augustine sucked and he sucked against Frye too.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 5, 2005 0:08:15 GMT -5
Augustine was HORRIBLE. He didn't even manage to go hack a Shaq on May like he was supposed to. He wasted his fouls on stupid reachs on guards driving the line and touch fouls on May.
If you're going to be physical with May BE PHYSICAL. I don't know how many stupid touch fouls on Illini big men led to hoops and harms. If you're going to foul, FOUL HARD-you can't give up 3pt plays to May on almost every foul. Just stupid basketball by the big guys.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2005 10:38:39 GMT -5
I think RDF and TBird are falling in love... Listening to you two pat each other on the back after every post is reaching Enberg-ian levels of... well you get the point.
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