idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by idhoya on Mar 10, 2014 16:28:01 GMT -5
Could be. I just want ballers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 16:31:08 GMT -5
It comes down to size E for me. I’m concerned about him being strong enough to defend his position, plus PG is the toughest spot to learn, lots of responsibility on a young guy. Think he’ll be solid as a Sophomore but freshman PG’s scare the heck out of me… We’ll see how it all shakes out I guess, and it would be nice to be wrong about that for sure Nah didn’t read it but thx for the heads up, about to now…haha Reggie Cameron can't defend a parking cone and he's still getting time because there is a need for him to get time this year. I expect that to be the case for Tre as well - if it looks like there is a need for another ball handler, he will play, regardless of size and defensive ability. And when he's in the game, play zone, because clearly we are built to play a pretty effective zone next year. Also, I happen to think you undersell Julian Vaughn quite a bit. Sure, he was unspectacular and unathletic, but the kid did a serviceable job for 2 of his 3 years here as our de facto center. O Rtgs of 104.3 and 102.6, pretty good rebounding numbers, surprisingly good block %s, over 50 FG%s. Frankly, if we had Julian Vaughn playing C this year, we're probably in the tournament. Same with Josh Smith though… There’s way more responsibility and much more difficult to play PG as a freshman than SF. Plus I never got the this guy is a bad defender so it’s ok to add another to the mix argument but either way I think the convo has run it’s course. We’ll just have to see how it plays out...
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Post by williambraskyiii on Mar 10, 2014 16:49:10 GMT -5
Reggie Cameron can't defend a parking cone and he's still getting time because there is a need for him to get time this year. I expect that to be the case for Tre as well - if it looks like there is a need for another ball handler, he will play, regardless of size and defensive ability. And when he's in the game, play zone, because clearly we are built to play a pretty effective zone next year. Also, I happen to think you undersell Julian Vaughn quite a bit. Sure, he was unspectacular and unathletic, but the kid did a serviceable job for 2 of his 3 years here as our de facto center. O Rtgs of 104.3 and 102.6, pretty good rebounding numbers, surprisingly good block %s, over 50 FG%s. Frankly, if we had Julian Vaughn playing C this year, we're probably in the tournament. Same with Josh Smith though… There’s way more responsibility and much more difficult to play PG as a freshman than SF. Plus I never got the this guy is a bad defender so it’s ok to add another to the mix argument but either way I think the convo has run it’s course. We’ll just have to see how it plays out... I think it is very simple if we could only address 1 need for 2014-15. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that will prevent Mikael Hopkins from starting at the 5. If that happens and persists throughout the season, we can preemptively flush the prospect of success down the toilet. 1) MH isn't anything close to a 5; 2) MH is not starter quality at any position but I would rather have him at 4 for some token starter minutes/early in the season until one of our frosh studs is ready to step up. So whether that means luring Josh to study hall with twinkies; having JTII threaten bodily harm to Rhino, Philly Cheese, Hunan Express, or any other establishment that seeks to corrupt Josh in mind, spirit or blood sugar levels; some combination of 1 and 2; getting a JuCo or late signee big; sending bradley hayes to Indy to train with Roy. In my opinion, the quagmire at 4/5 is by far the biggest offseason concern. Yes we are thin at guard but at least we have more than zero starting-caliber guards on our roster. Last I checked we have zero of those at the C position. In short, Josh MUST get eligible and get in shape or we are in big, big trouble. again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 17:02:52 GMT -5
Same with Josh Smith though… There’s way more responsibility and much more difficult to play PG as a freshman than SF. Plus I never got the this guy is a bad defender so it’s ok to add another to the mix argument but either way I think the convo has run it’s course. We’ll just have to see how it plays out... I think it is very simple if we could only address 1 need for 2014-15. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that will prevent Mikael Hopkins from starting at the 5. If that happens and persists throughout the season, we can preemptively flush the prospect of success down the toilet. 1) MH isn't anything close to a 5; 2) MH is not starter quality at any position but I would rather have him at 4 for some token starter minutes/early in the season until one of our frosh studs is ready to step up. So whether that means luring Josh to study hall with twinkies; having JTII threaten bodily harm to Rhino, Philly Cheese, Hunan Express, or any other establishment that seeks to corrupt Josh in mind, spirit or blood sugar levels; some combination of 1 and 2; getting a JuCo or late signee big; sending bradley hayes to Indy to train with Roy. In my opinion, the quagmire at 4/5 is by far the biggest offseason concern. Yes we are thin at guard but at least we have more than zero starting-caliber guards on our roster. Last I checked we have zero of those at the C position. In short, Josh MUST get eligible and get in shape or we are in big, big trouble. again. I think Josh will be back next year and I have more confidence in SR Hopkins at Center than a Freshman at PG. Agree to disagree i guess...
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 11, 2014 10:38:56 GMT -5
Back in 2005, a unknown freshman walk-on named Johnathan Wallace played PG in the Big East (the real Big East). He was undersized and rather unathletic, but with limited other options, JTIII played him 30 mins a game, despite fairly uneven play. He had an O Rtg of 98 for the season on just 14% usage, shot 38% from the field, 37% from 3, and had a TO rate of 27% (a pretty ghastly number for a PG). Luckily we had other weapons on the team that could facilitate the offense - most notably another freshman named Jeff Green, who appeared to be tailor-made for this offense, even if at first we all wondered what the hell our "center" was doing spending so much time in high post/above the 3 point line. So John's role was simple - help with the ball handling and try to get open for 3s (126 attempts vs. just 53 2 point attempts). Ashanti was blossoming into a pretty good scorer at SG, Jeff was the central figure in the offense, and Bowman/Owens were our stretch 3/4. Our PG that year did little aside from dribble the ball and shoot open 3s. He was a defensive liability, but it was not an issue because we had the personnel to clean up after when he needed it.
Fast forward to 2014, and it is really that ridiculous to see Tre playing a similar role on next year's team? Granted he won't have to play nearly 30 mins a game, but the point being that Wallace didn't set the world on fire his freshman year, but given the personnel around him, he didn't need to. He was little used on offense aside from handling the ball and getting it to Jeff to set up a play. He usage was less than 15%. He played PG, but hardly in the traditional sense. I could easily see PW playing the Jeff Green role next year. We've got a bona fide scoring wizard in DSR, and we've got other wing players to space the floor. Is it ridiculous to think Tre could put up similar production as Johnny Boy did his freshman year? I personally don't think so. And as far as any defensive liabilities, I think next year's team will be able to help mask those liabilities much like they did for Johnny basically his whole career.
I don't really see any reason he can't potentially give us 10-12 mins a game in a freshman-Wallace-type role next year. I'd rather see him get a chance to play than stunt his growth by giving some random 5th year senior a bunch of PT for one year and then he's on his merry way.
Please, get me another big so in case Smith isn't back, we don't need to suffer through Mikael playing 5 for 30 minutes a night.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 11, 2014 10:44:29 GMT -5
We also didn't make the tourney in Wallace's freshman year right? I think you make some really good points here but I also think a 5th year guy who can handle the ball would really help unless we feel like we can get adequate ballhandling out of a combination of Trawick, Peak, & White.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 11, 2014 10:54:40 GMT -5
We also didn't make the tourney in Wallace's freshman year right? I think you make some really good points here but I also think a 5th year guy who can handle the ball would really help unless we feel like we can get adequate ballhandling out of a combination of Trawick, Peak, & White. No, we didn't make the tourney. We lost in the quarterfinals of the NIT to eventual champ South Carolina. We were also in a far tougher conference with far less talent to work with than we will have next year. That team was incredibly young and was learning JTIIIs system for the first time, including the upperclassmen. We appeared to be a lock for the tourney after starting BE play at 8-3 (16-6 overall with some pretty impressive wins on the resume), but proceeded to lose 5 straight to end the year and bowed out in the 2nd round of the BE tourney. Personally, as much as I want to be as good as we can next year (and I think we could be very very good), 2015 is looking like the potential special year where we are a serious contender, barring any unforeseen catastrophes. And I'd rather have a sophomore PG in Tre who had some good experience as a freshman than a sophomore PG in Tre who was nailed to the bench the year before. In that same vein, I'd rather have a sophomore big to potentially play some minutes in 15 if we need him to instead of putting all my eggs in the basket of Bradley and the Freshmen.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 11, 2014 11:38:28 GMT -5
Shouldn’t a key factor, when determining needs, is to know for sure who exactly will be on the roster next season?
Will these guys be around for 2014-2015?
Josh Smith (most likely IMO) Aaron Bowen (likely...I think...I hope) Moses Ayegba (who knows at this point) Bradley Hayes (with such limited playing time he may bolt) Stephen Domingo (see above)
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 12, 2014 23:01:15 GMT -5
Do folks still want to debate whether or not the staff should keep recruiting for 2014?
smdh...
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hoyafan23
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Post by hoyafan23 on Mar 12, 2014 23:18:22 GMT -5
For the 100000th time, do anything we can to get a big man who can catch a ball/rebound/stay under the basket/not get in foul trouble.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 12, 2014 23:24:04 GMT -5
I just want one who can make a layup every now and then. Freshman can do that right? Maybe a transfer that wouldn't have to sit out a year? Just something, someone, who can rebound and make layups. Anyone. Please.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 12, 2014 23:48:54 GMT -5
So can we all agree now that it would be a prudent decision to continue recruiting bigs in the 2014 class? Please tell me we are not still gonna debate whether we need a guard or a center? This game seemed to make it pretty clear.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 12, 2014 23:53:35 GMT -5
^both
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 13, 2014 9:23:23 GMT -5
Almost as important as recruiting are usage and development of players (referred to in some circles as “coaching”). You can bring in a big but how will that player be used? Will he be allowed to plant himself near the basket, post up to score and grab all the rebounds? Or will he spend most of his time setting high screens, stay out of the paint to keep it opened for backdoor cuts and be required to be more of a facilitator, a passer, from the high post rather than a big man scoring in the paint? If you get a point guard will this guard be coached extensively on running the fastbreak and driving into the lane or will the point guard get far more instruction on how to read a defense and hand over the ball to his big man facilitator? This is what one has to worry about.
I do not believe that even the horrible loss to DePaul is entirely indicative of the team’s problems. This same team, even when similarly shorthanded, have played better teams this season far better than it played DePaul last night. I don’t also want to dismiss that throughout the season the reigns were dropped in as far as letting our backcourt create and go more one-on-one or even that for a good stretch the team seemed to have turned the corner in as far as turnovers. I simply don’t want to explain the two bad performances in the most recent games as being simply a result of a talent shortage (especially without acknowledging that shortage is being addressed in the first place by the guys we have already recruited, including Derrickson). What I especially don’t want is to bring in a big who is not going to be used as a big or a point guard who is not going to be able to control the offense by keeping the ball in his hands.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 13, 2014 9:35:44 GMT -5
Almost as important as recruiting are usage and development of players (referred to in some circles as “coaching”). You can bring in a big but how will that player be used? Will he be allowed to plant himself near the basket, post up to score and grab all the rebounds? Or will he spend most of his time setting high screens, stay out of the paint to keep it opened for backdoor cuts and be required to be more of a facilitator, a passer, from the high post rather than a big man scoring in the paint? If you get a point guard will this guard be coached extensively on running the fastbreak and driving into the lane or will the point guard get far more instruction on how to read a defense and hand over the ball to his big man facilitator? This is what one has to worry about. I do not believe that even the horrible loss to DePaul is entirely indicative of the team’s problems. This same team, even when similarly shorthanded, have played better teams this season far better than it played DePaul last night. I don’t also want to dismiss that throughout the season the reigns were dropped in as far as letting our backcourt create and go more one-on-one or even that for a good stretch the team seemed to have turned the corner in as far as turnovers. I simply don’t want to explain the two bad performances in the most recent games as being simply a result of a talent shortage (especially without acknowledging that shortage is being addressed in the first place by the guys we have already recruited, including Derrickson). What I especially don’t want is to bring in a big who is not going to be used as a big or a point guard who is not going to be able to control the offense by keeping the ball in his hands. I think yours was a much fairer concern in past years. As your second paragraph acknowledges, I think JTIII showed this year a willingness to use his player's strengths. We started the year with Josh mainly posting up and dumping it in to him at most opportunities. Sure, he still handled it out top some and set some ball screens, but if we're being fair, we posted him a lot. The rest of our bigs? Well, they can't post effectively (Nate's the only one who can and he infrequently tried). We tried to feed Mikael some -- actually, we did it more than I would have liked. I think the problem wasn't ineffectively using this particular roster, it was that this particular roster didn't have the ability to be used effectively. So, while I certainly share your hope that players are used correctly in the future, I don't so much share your concern about it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 13, 2014 9:39:54 GMT -5
Almost as important as recruiting are usage and development of players (referred to in some circles as “coaching”). You can bring in a big but how will that player be used? Will he be allowed to plant himself near the basket, post up to score and grab all the rebounds? Or will he spend most of his time setting high screens, stay out of the paint to keep it opened for backdoor cuts and be required to be more of a facilitator, a passer, from the high post rather than a big man scoring in the paint? If you get a point guard will this guard be coached extensively on running the fastbreak and driving into the lane or will the point guard get far more instruction on how to read a defense and hand over the ball to his big man facilitator? This is what one has to worry about. I do not believe that even the horrible loss to DePaul is entirely indicative of the team’s problems. This same team, even when similarly shorthanded, have played better teams this season far better than it played DePaul last night. I don’t also want to dismiss that throughout the season the reigns were dropped in as far as letting our backcourt create and go more one-on-one or even that for a good stretch the team seemed to have turned the corner in as far as turnovers. I simply don’t want to explain the two bad performances in the most recent games as being simply a result of a talent shortage (especially without acknowledging that shortage is being addressed in the first place by the guys we have already recruited, including Derrickson). What I especially don’t want is to bring in a big who is not going to be used as a big or a point guard who is not going to be able to control the offense by keeping the ball in his hands. So you want JT3 to utilize a different system then? This is how he coaches, he must bring kids in who fit this type of system.. I've talked Hamilton from DePaul up a lot this year, he isn't a superstar at all but he looks to be that solid recruit every program needs. How good would he look in JT3's system?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 13, 2014 9:45:28 GMT -5
aleutianhoya, you make an excellent point about how III used Josh this season.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Mar 13, 2014 10:12:44 GMT -5
I just want one who can make a layup every now and then. Freshman can do that right? Maybe a transfer that wouldn't have to sit out a year? Just something, someone, who can rebound and make layups. Anyone. Please. This. How many layups and dunks has Hopkins missed in his career? Don't mean to pile on the kid, but just don't understand how JTIII can't even get an average, serviceable big in the last few years.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 13, 2014 10:20:42 GMT -5
I think Josh will be back next year and I have more confidence in SR Hopkins at Center than a Freshman at PG. Agree to disagree i guess... At this point I have less confidence in SR Hopkins at center than in my 15-year old niece at PG.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 10:34:03 GMT -5
I think Josh will be back next year and I have more confidence in SR Hopkins at Center than a Freshman at PG. Agree to disagree i guess... At his point I have less confidence in SR Hopkins at center than in my 15-year old niece at PG. As a starter you might be right. In a back-up role earlier on in the season I thought he played pretty well. Basically we have to hope for Josh to be the guy and Hop improves his consistency in the offseason…
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