hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Mar 24, 2013 10:58:13 GMT -5
True. To which the others will say then it's a recruiting problem. It very well could be a recruiting problem. That said, we're not Duke or Kentucky or UNC that can pick and choose. The top guys we do get, the staff works really hard to get it seems. My perception (and I could be completely wrong) is that our coaches do a really good job of recruiting considering everything (facilities, academics, rules that are enforced, no enticement$). Hold up. You don't have to be UNC, Duke or Kentucky to have a deep quality rotation (Kentucky certainly didn't have one this season). There are teams other than those three still playing in the tourney that have such a rotation. And for all we know Gtown has a quality bench too. The issue is that we don't know unless the players are used. And those players may not be able to provide such depth unless they are developed in the first place. Rosters don't have to include 8 McDAAs in order to have several highly effective players coming off the bench. Exactly. Nowhere to be found currently.
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gahoya
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Post by gahoya on Mar 24, 2013 11:05:27 GMT -5
I don't think that anyone is saying to play the bench substantial minutes in critical games. On the other hand spend a few minutes looking at box scores from the preseason and check out when the bench played and with whom. Bowen (and Moses) played little or not all in several preconference games and then are called upon for a major contribution in the tournament. That is the unanticiapted contingency that needs to be addressed in the preseason. Putting Domingo, Moses, Bowen, Caprio and DSR/Trawick in as a unit in the last 4 Minutes of a game does little to help their development. If they are truly as bad as some think then I guess the coaching staff, the recruiting services and many board members who post here have been guilty of major misjudgments. They may still develop, especially Domingo. We recruit projects because we cannot recruit enough quality players. We just cannot compete with the Louisville's and the Syracuse's of the world. If we can beat them while they out-recruit us, then recruiting doesn't seem to be the problem to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 11:17:51 GMT -5
True. To which the others will say then it's a recruiting problem. It very well could be a recruiting problem. That said, we're not Duke or Kentucky or UNC that can pick and choose. The top guys we do get, the staff works really hard to get it seems. My perception (and I could be completely wrong) is that our coaches do a really good job of recruiting considering everything (facilities, academics, rules that are enforced, no enticement$). Hold up. You don't have to be UNC, Duke or Kentucky to have a deep quality rotation (Kentucky certainly didn't have one this season). There are teams other than those three still playing in the tourney that have such a rotation. And for all we know Gtown has a quality bench too. The issue is that we don't know unless the players are used. And those players may not be able to provide such depth unless they are developed in the first place. Rosters don't have to include 8 McDAAs in order to have several highly effective players coming off the bench. I agree with BM Martin in the top post. As for Kentucky, you are quite correct that Kentucky had no depth this year. They didnt make the NCAA's and quickly was knocked out of the NIt
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 24, 2013 11:18:38 GMT -5
. We recruit projects because we cannot recruit enough quality players. We just cannot compete with the Louisville's and the Syracuse's of the world. . My goodness. We end up recruiting projects at times because, and this is what a few people have relayed to me, our coaches aren't that great at recruiting. Without getting into too much detail two of the three assistants supposedly have a suspect reps on the recruiting trail, while III on the other hand is known as a guy who impresses parents more than the players themselves (and when push comes to shove it is typically the players who determine where they are going....or at least their street agents do). There has also been a bunch of info passed on this site about talented players whom GU could have had but the ended up losing out on by either slow-walking offers to them or overlooking them for "specialists" who are supposed to be better fits in III's system (until the NCAA tournament begins and they choke so bad that they would not look good in anyone's system). And please don't forget that it is common knowledge for those who keep up with recruiting that the top recruits tend to prefer a more open offensive system to play in. This has nothing to do about not being able to keep up with the Syracuses of the world. Syracuse ain't Kentucky, Duke or UNC. Hell, the Cuse can rarely get top players outside of the Atlantic coast. They don't have much of a national reach these days. But the Cuse identify who they want, pounce on them and shower them with love. And while none of those recruits probably ever dreamed about playing a 2-3 zone defense, they are aware that Boeheim likes his teams to run on offense and score a bunch of points. Considering that 99% of the recruits of any level care mostly about what they can do on offense, Cuse doesn't have to fret about the zone defense being an issue. Look, I get that Syracuse has superior facilities and I realize that is a factor with some elite players. But in all due respect it is nothing short of whiny self-pity to claim that the poor ol' Hoyas can't compete with Syracuse. Recruiting is about coaches and programs and history. Georgetown probably has inferior facilities to most mid major schools and it definitely has inferior facilities compared to state schools in the power conferences. Yet Georgetown has regularly pulled in top twenty recruiting classes during III's tenure alone despite 100 plus schools having the better infrastructure to attract players. Also recruiting is about success. Post season success. Playing on the second weekend when the media can narrow its focus. Playing in the Final Four when the media can shower the teams with attention and CBS can market your program to kids all across the country. The Hoyas haven't had any of this for six years and that hurts too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 11:19:23 GMT -5
They may still develop, especially Domingo. We recruit projects because we cannot recruit enough quality players. We just cannot compete with the Louisville's and the Syracuse's of the world. If we can beat them while they out-recruit us, then recruiting doesn't seem to be the problem to me. It is a problem at the end of the season, because that is when the lack of a quality bench hurts you
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 24, 2013 11:23:42 GMT -5
Re recruiting/depth failures: Guys who coulda/woulda/shoulda been available: Greg Whittington. Tyler Adams. Hollis Thompson. smh. I keep forgetting about Tyler. His medical issue may have been the key factor in determing the length of Gtown's NCAA stay for the past two years. Such a shame for both him and the team that he hasn't been able to play.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 11:51:51 GMT -5
. We recruit projects because we cannot recruit enough quality players. We just cannot compete with the Louisville's and the Syracuse's of the world. . My goodness. We end up recruiting projects at times because, and this is what a few people have relayed to me, our coaches aren't that great at recruiting.they can do on offense, Cuse doesn't have to fret about the zone defe And please don't forget that it is common knowledge for those who keep up with recruiting that the top recruits tend to prefer a more open offensive system to play in. . Sorry, I wasn't clear. I should have said we don't (not can't) recruit with those programs. Our staff is fine. I am proud of the players we do recruit. Look at the last top 10 drafted players, Green, Hibbert, Monroe and now Porter. These are well liked, well respected individuals and a credit to Georgetown. I haven't seen or heard of any major character problems in our program (Of course I don't have any specificc inside information) This is actually more important to me than how good they are at basketball.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Mar 24, 2013 12:04:46 GMT -5
I agree with MCI, the use of Bowen and Domingo was confounding. Bowen had 1 minute in a 22 point win against Mt. St. Mary's. 3 minutes in a 23 point win against Texas. 8 minutes in a 36 point win against Longwood. Domingo got fairly regular PT early on and then basically never played again (outside of Depaul). Is a 15 point lead against a low major team so tenuous that we can't throw Domingo or Bowen out there for a little bit?
I'm not sure that depth is as big of a problem as many think. But if it is, it's stuff like this that has to change.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 24, 2013 13:26:48 GMT -5
I look at the roster. There is a big drop off after the first seven players, especially on defense. We won at least 5 Big East games by playing lockdown half court team defense. JTIII played the guys who were capable of doing that. Dunking against Liberty doesn't mean a player is ready to defend Syracuse. True. To which the others will say then it's a recruiting problem. It very well could be a recruiting problem. That said, we're not Duke or Kentucky or UNC that can pick and choose. The top guys we do get, the staff works really hard to get it seems. My perception (and I could be completely wrong) is that our coaches do a really good job of recruiting considering everything (facilities, academics, rules that are enforced, no enticement$). Will tournament success help recruiting? Almost certainly. But developing players should too. Otto helped this year. I thought the Hoyas would get more of a push after Jeff and Roy and Greg (we probably don't get Greg without the former 2 guys). I personally don't care if JT3 mentions the banner thing publicly or not as long as that's what his goal is and that's what he's working toward. Losing to Ohio or FGCU when you've dominated the regular season isn't "a recruiting problem." If you've recruited well enough to win 25 or whatever games, you've recruited well enough to beat 14 and 15 seeds.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 24, 2013 13:48:46 GMT -5
True. To which the others will say then it's a recruiting problem. It very well could be a recruiting problem. That said, we're not Duke or Kentucky or UNC that can pick and choose. The top guys we do get, the staff works really hard to get it seems. My perception (and I could be completely wrong) is that our coaches do a really good job of recruiting considering everything (facilities, academics, rules that are enforced, no enticement$). Will tournament success help recruiting? Almost certainly. But developing players should too. Otto helped this year. I thought the Hoyas would get more of a push after Jeff and Roy and Greg (we probably don't get Greg without the former 2 guys). I personally don't care if JT3 mentions the banner thing publicly or not as long as that's what his goal is and that's what he's working toward. Losing to Ohio or FGCU when you've dominated the regular season isn't "a recruiting problem." If you've recruited well enough to win 25 or whatever games, you've recruited well enough to beat 14 and 15 seeds. To the same token, it's also not a depth problem. Especially after having a week or more time off to rest. People keep looking for system or game play changes to fix this problem. If we were having seasons similar to 2009 over and over again they would have a point. If we were struggling in the tournament each time against similarly ranked or achieving teams, I might consider listening. None of that is happening. There is no depth/recruiting/talent/system issue that is getting us blown out by inferior opponents in ways that never occurred in the regular season. People are just using our failures in the tournament to argue against whatever facet of program/team they don't like at the time. Don't like our players or recruiting? By golly, that must be what is causing us to lose one game in march every year. Don't like our pace? Well, gee, why else can't we get by the powerhouses of Ohio and FGCU in March if we don't play faster? Want to see a deeper rotation? We must be so tired and burnt out by mid-March that we can't possibly be competitive with the likes of Ohio and FGCU. It takes all until October just for our players to have the energy to walk to class again. They get a golf-cart the rest of the year! Look I'm not saying some of these complaints aren't valid. But they aren't the reason we can't get by the Ohio's and FGCU of the world.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 24, 2013 13:50:20 GMT -5
go back to bed sleepy
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Mar 24, 2013 14:25:40 GMT -5
Coaches ask their players to adapt all the time. Now it's time for the coach to adapt in a major way. I am not talking about just tinkering around the edges. We must develop 8-9 guys who can come in and play at any time. We must be able to defend and shoot. We must play a more up temper game. Talk to any young basketball player--they want to get out in the open court and RUN! If we cannot blow out any team then all teams will lose respect and fear of us. We need to get it together now.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 24, 2013 14:39:00 GMT -5
If we can beat them while they out-recruit us, then recruiting doesn't seem to be the problem to me. It is a problem at the end of the season, because that is when the lack of a quality bench hurts you Like 2 weeks ago vs. Syracuse? Or was that too early? When is this magical moment where depth goes from non-issue to problem? Is it March 16? Does the date change every year like Thanksgiving? Or is it more like Christmas--same every year? And how did you come by this information?
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 24, 2013 14:41:09 GMT -5
Re recruiting/depth failures: Guys who coulda/woulda/shoulda been available: Greg Whittington. Tyler Adams. Hollis Thompson. smh. I keep forgetting about Tyler. His medical issue may have been the key factor in determing the length of Gtown's NCAA stay for the past two years. Such a shame for both him and the team that he hasn't been able to play. This explanation would definitely deserve some attention IF TYLER HAD PLAYED DURING OUR SUCCESSFUL 2011-12 and 2012-13 REGULAR SEASONS. How can his absence have been irrelevant on March 20, but on March 22 it became a huge problem?
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 24, 2013 14:44:14 GMT -5
It is a problem at the end of the season, because that is when the lack of a quality bench hurts you Like 2 weeks ago vs. Syracuse? Or was that too early? When is this magical moment where depth goes from non-issue to problem? Is it March 16? Does the date change every year like Thanksgiving? Or is it more like Christmas--same every year? And how did you come by this information? Not saying its a rotation problem, but something seems to affect this team every postseason in the last 5 years. Will you at least concede that? Or do you really just think we're that unlucky? You think FGCU mercilessly beats the other 2 seeds Friday night the way they did the Hoyas? Ohio does the same three years back to any high seed they face that night? You seem adamant that there is no problem with the Hoyas and the tourney, which I find hard to accept.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Mar 24, 2013 14:48:35 GMT -5
Another thing...and I hope JT-3 is listening--Let these kids have some fun out there on the court. If they are going to fall down let them get their falling down in early in the season. What's the use of beating both Syracuse and Louisville during the regular season and sitting at home watching both of them make deep runs in the tournament? Our guys did not even seem like they were enjoying being out on the basketball court against FGCU. In the words of the legendary Bob Marley: "The bucket goes to the well (too often), one day the bottom will drop out." Porter got worn down. Period,
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 24, 2013 15:18:33 GMT -5
Like 2 weeks ago vs. Syracuse? Or was that too early? When is this magical moment where depth goes from non-issue to problem? Is it March 16? Does the date change every year like Thanksgiving? Or is it more like Christmas--same every year? And how did you come by this information? Not saying its a rotation problem, but something seems to affect this team every postseason in the last 5 years. Will you at least concede that? Or do you really just think we're that unlucky? You think FGCU mercilessly beats the other 2 seeds Friday night the way they did the Hoyas? Ohio does the same three years back to any high seed they face that night? You seem adamant that there is no problem with the Hoyas and the tourney, which I find hard to accept. At no point have I said there is no reason to be concerned. I am as angry and embarrassed as anyone. I would love to find some perfect over-arching explanation. I don't have, III doesn't have one, and nobody on this board has one. People who want to try and offer one though have to do better than ignore the hundreds of data points we have suggesting that JTIII in fact knows how to win basketball games. Perhaps there is some mental issue that we can't ever possibly prove or even measure. My guess if I had to make one is that all five games can't be explained by one thing and that this run is a combination of being unlucky with the draw (VCU and Davidson and NC State were basically just as good as us), being unlucky with three-point shooting defense, overconfidence leading to a lack of defensive effort, and--perhaps, because there is absolutely no way to know from my living room--a risk-averse, play-not-to-lose mindset. We will learn more with time. I don't remember Ohio well--can we say that like in that game in this one we had a young team (ours) playing a senior-laden group? I will say that without doing any research, my guy feeling is that we always play better when we are the hunter rather than the hunted. I think that partly describes the 3 Syracuse games, the Nova game, the almost-loss at UConn, the Indiana and UCLA games, the games at Marquette and USF, and even the home loss to lower-ranked Pitt. I don't put a ton of stock into theories that motivation is an important factor in sports because these are all major athletes who have already achieved a lot, and because most people can easily identify motivation tools that we assume all coaches are using. But maybe that isn't true at the college level--at least where there isn't an overwhelming talent disparity. Maybe it's safe to assume the pros know how to self-motivate and are all plenty familiar with pressure by the time they've been on TV and played before huge crowds and competed against their teammates for playing time for years. But maybe college kids aren't all the way there get, and maybe there really is some kind of speech-giving magic that Pitino has (except against Morehead State) and III doesn't. But I'm very skeptical. It is a convenient story to tell, and an evidence-free one.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 24, 2013 15:23:10 GMT -5
Not a unique thought but I posted in another thread that it seems perhaps the team peaked too soon emotionally re: the last 'Cuse game at Verizon Center? Too much emphasis on the BE regular season championship/Tournament Championship? I don't know, nobody does, but I'd rather trade some earlier losses for a better showing in the NCAAT. I
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 24, 2013 15:57:29 GMT -5
One thing for sure, III needs to disappear from the public until midnight madness. His appearance just rub the salty into the open wound.
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 24, 2013 15:59:10 GMT -5
Well, Hoya Hoop Club members are pretty darn likely to see and talk to him at the Hoya Hoop Club banquet. I wonder if he will take questions.
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