Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 23, 2005 17:37:28 GMT -5
Which is better, the NCAA or NIT? The discussion is much ado about nothing. Both are postseason, so the team gets to play more games. The NCAA is better of course because the best teams are in that tournament. But let's not act like the NIT serves no purpose just like we shouldn't act like it's better than the NCAAs. The NIT is exactly what it is; where you go when you fall short of the NCAAs. For major conference teams, the importance of the NCAAs in development is overrated. UConn won the whole thing last year, got a #2 seed and tanked. WVU made the NIT quarters, got a #7 seed and is still playing. These teams already see great competition game in and game out so the developmental aspect of the NCAAs versus the NIT is overstated. Also, the college game changes so quickly that there are about a million variables more important than where you played in the post-season the previous year. In 2003, 'Cuse gained one Carmelo Anthony and in 2004 we lost one Mike Sweetney. That's why the former team won it all and the latter went under .500. Maryland made the 2nd round last year and returned almost everyone. This year infighting and chemistry problems sent the Terps to the NIT. Let's not make a big deal of whether this is a "better" scenario than the NCAAs. We're playing and that's what matters right now. There's no way to predict what this means for next year's post-season because so much of that is game-by-game. It's just a chance to win a few more and get rid of the taste of the 5-game skid to end the season. So you've just agreed with everything I've written. My argument was that being in the NCAA tournament would have been better than the NIT, two wins or no. All of the posts prior to mine weren't so unequivocal on that point.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 23, 2005 17:56:24 GMT -5
I agree with the fact that the NCAA tournament would have been better but disagree with the "vastly more lasting benefits" or the "talk of mediocrity." That's really overstating the point.
The difference between this team going to the NCAAs this year and winning some games in the NIT is tiny. If JTIII wins 20 games and goes to the Garden in his first year (after a 13-15 season) and then turns it into an NCAA appearance next year, the marginal effect of a near miss this year isn't really that big at all. The trajectory is the same and that's more important than an NCAA banner versus an NIT banner.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 23, 2005 18:19:49 GMT -5
The difference between this team going to the NCAAs this year and winning some games in the NIT is tiny. How can you say that? First, there is a huge difference for THIS YEAR. Otherwise, why would anyone care about whether we made the NCAA or the NIT? Of course, whether that effect will be felt next year is a whole different story but its impact is more than just negligible. As you correctly pointed out, there are a million other variables out there but to say that the difference is tiny makes no sense to me. Exposure, recruiting, confidence, etc. etc. are all much greater by being in the NCAA rather than the NIT.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 23, 2005 18:56:03 GMT -5
Exposure, recruiting, and confidence...pretty much code for "I wish we were in the NCAAs."
And I wish we were too, but JTIII is in his first year and his legacy is not going to be built on his first year being an NCAA or NIT year.
If you didn't notice, our best recruiting class in recent memory committed after an NIT season and a losing season. Oh yeah, this year's class (Top 25 by some measures) also committed after said losing season. That doesn't exactly scream to me that the NIT is damaging our chances. Recruits buy into the future more than the past. This is, I think, the most misunderstood aspect of recruiting. Note the talent on Villanova (making their first NCAA appearance in 7 years and first Sweet 16 in 17) or Louisville(first Sweet 16 since 1997). Somehow talent committed to these programs' respective visions despite a lack of recent success.
Confidence? You think our guys are scared next year? They beat two Sweet 16 teams and another NCAA team this season. What does the NCAAs do for this mystical "confidence factor" that their success this season hasn't already done? If missing the tournament has shaken this team's confidence we're doomed. I can't imagine it has.
Exposure I'll give you. The NCAAs for Georgetown are a good story, but it will be a good story next year too.
Yeah we all wanted our guys to be in the NCAAs this year, but the effect of a miss this year is about as big as the effect of our Sweet 16 in 2001. Remember how that shot recruiting through the roof? And the 2002 team never cracked under pressure, as I recall, due to the confidence it gave them.
Let's be realistic, JTIII is here for the long haul. The difference between his first year being in the NCAAs or the NIT is not that big a deal. The difference this year is we were bumming on Selection Sunday, but a "huge difference?" Seven of eight years out of the tourney made a "huge difference." Going from a Hall of Fame pillar of the black community at head coach to his unknown assistant made a "huge difference." Missing the NCAAs this year by one game doesn't make a "huge difference."
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Mar 23, 2005 23:10:53 GMT -5
There are, generally speaking, two types of teams that play in the NIT. Up-and-coming teams, and mediocre teams at their peak. I'd put the 2004-2005 Hoyas in the former category, since they only have one contributor graduating and a good young coach who is only in his first year. In the latter category go teams like the 2002-2003 Hoyas. Though we didn't know it would happen at the time, we lost Sweetney to the NBA the next year and our two starting guards transferred. The depleted 2003-2004 team was led by a guy who had trouble inspiring the players and refused to make changes to the offensive scheme Georgetown had been using for the past two decades, a scheme which doesn't work without dominant players who are able to create on their own (see: Ewing, Sweetney, et al). A similar team is this year's TCU squad. They had a shot at making the NCAAs this year but fell short. Their top three scorers are seniors, and once they're gone the team will sink back to the middle of the depleted Conference USA.
Sure, fans like us are disappointed when the team doesn't make the NCAA, and always want the team to be in the tournament, but Coach Thompson and the team have a completely different mindset. He has made it clear that the team's goal this year is to GET BETTER as the season goes on. Coach and players have done just that, IMO, and the NIT gives them an opportunity to continue the trend.
So far, we've had two blowout wins over mid-majors playing with a lot of heart, and we get a decent SEC team next. I think that does a lot toward the aforementioned main goal of the season. Do I wish we had finished the season strong and made the tournament? Yes. Would that have been good for ticket sales next year? Yup. But that's about it. Besides, making noise in the NIT isn't bad, and I think if we make enough noise (say beating the Terps in MSG and then blowing out St. Joes/Memphis in the finals) we could be a top 25 team to start the season next year, which would be better for recruiting, TV, press coverage, etc. than a one-and-done in this year's NCAA.
But now I'm getting back into fan mode. My point is, the coach and players have different goals than all this external "we want our team recognized in the media" junk, and they can accomplish those goals just as well in the NIT as in the NCAAs.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 24, 2005 0:51:31 GMT -5
One thing to note in college basketball: you don't have much time as up and coming. Next year may very well be an "older, peak" year for us, with two starters as seniors, a center who may not stay much longer, etc. You must constantly reload in college bball and you must take advantage of every chance you get.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 24, 2005 2:40:48 GMT -5
To say the NIT is categorically worse under all circumstances is a bit narrow-minded to me.
The key to this year is to get better. We werent winning the tourney this year, and isnt that the ultimate goal? If were not going to win it all, then our best bet is to get better for next year. Now, you can argue that a one and done (or MAYBE 2 and done if we got lucky) would have been better than a trip to the NIT where we dominate (so far at least). But thats really up for debate and I dont think its so cut and dry. If we make the NCAAs, Roy's lucky to see the court. Ditto Tyler. We look bad on national tv, and casual fans are disappointed. Our team feels, well, deflated, and our fanbase does too.
By going to the NIT, we can use the NCAA snub (not a true snub, but for lack of a better word) as motivation. We help our team gain confidence. We get post season PT for our young guys. We rejuvenate the fanbase with some wins, especially by taking the game to McDonough, where a lot of first time fans attend and we build up the student section for nest year (they HAD to have had a great time). The players feel confident with some wins and with the crowd behind them. We get more pub with a series of wins rather than as losers in a day that includes 15 other games, whered wed be an afterthought to anyone not a Hoya fan. The guys come out next year thinking they can hang with anyone, and we get solid PR preaseason.
Im not saying I didnt want to go to the NCAAs, but honestly, we werent ready. We werent there yet. And thus we need to focus on getting better, so we CAN be ready next year. The NIT is a good thing for us. If we had an excellent team that deserved to make the NCAA's, then sure, thatd be awesome. But I think we should be wishing we had an NCAA-caliber team right now, not wishing this team was in the NCAA's... does that make sense?
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Bay99
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Bay99 on Mar 24, 2005 3:23:49 GMT -5
Does anyone think it may not have been the worst thing in the world to head to the NIT? Is it the worst thing in the world? No. Would I trade an NIT title for a first-round loss in the NCAA Tournament? Yes. There is a reason we call it the Big Dance. Don't get me wrong: if we're playing in the NIT, let's play to win it. I think the additional games are valuable for the players. I think it's great we had an on-campus, nationally televised game. But no one remembers who won the NIT last year, much less the teams that didn't win the NIT. NCAA Tournament bids mean more revenue and national exposure, both in short supply right now for the Hoyas. Again, I'm glad we're still playing this late in March, and I think ultimately the experience will benefit the players come next season. I remember thinking the same exact thing two years ago.
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Gold Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Gold Hoya on Mar 24, 2005 3:30:48 GMT -5
also keep in mind that more games = more practice with the coaches & more time to learn the new system, experiment with different players in roles, etc.
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Post by Rockycat on Mar 24, 2005 8:28:20 GMT -5
I must say it felt good when a rabid Cuse fan who has been giving me grief all season came up to me in tears and said, "I can't believe Georgetown is still playing, and we're out." There aren't that many teams still playing in either tournament, and we are one of them. After the McDonough experience, the NIT doesn't seem like such a consolation prize, and I think it was the right tournament for the team this season. It can be a confidence builder going into next year if they go deep.
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Mar 24, 2005 9:47:13 GMT -5
But no one remembers who won the NIT last year, much less the teams that didn't win the NIT. Last night I was flipping through my 2003 Sports Almanac. I don't know if any of you have actually read a sports almanac but it has every piece of information you could possibly want: the batting average of the backup thirdbaseman for the Padres, who had the fastest 100M Butterfly time that year, a list of every historical top 20/25 football poll, the Division 2 NCAA Archery champion. But you can't find NIT results.
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Post by coachmcguirk on Mar 24, 2005 12:22:26 GMT -5
When I was a little boy growing up on Long Island (cue the harmonica) the NIT was a much bigger deal -- seven games in one day at MSG, much better media coverage etc. Were it not for ESPN, I'm not sure whether it would even exist today.
But what really honks me off is when they ignore GU-SC while airing hours of celebrity billiards and World's Strongest Man circa 1976.
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Mar 24, 2005 13:29:49 GMT -5
Yeah, not their fault though. ESPN has a no-compete with CBS as far as showing basketball during the NCAA tournament.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Mar 24, 2005 16:20:21 GMT -5
Yeah, not their fault though. ESPN has a no-compete with CBS as far as showing basketball during the NCAA tournament. I've seen this posted a couple of times. How do y'all know about this? Why would ESPN sign something like that? Does it have anything to do with CBS using game commentators who are usually seen on ESPN (Raftery, Bilas, etc.)?
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 24, 2005 16:23:14 GMT -5
I've seen this posted a couple of times. How do y'all know about this? Why would ESPN sign something like that? Does it have anything to do with CBS using game commentators who are usually seen on ESPN (Raftery, Bilas, etc.)? My guess is it's NCAA mandated. They already pulled the rug out from under the NIT when they made a rule requiring teams to play in the NCAAs if chosen, so why would they ever allow the NIT to compete directly with the NCAAs.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Mar 24, 2005 16:27:38 GMT -5
My guess is it's NCAA mandated. They already pulled the rug out from under the NIT when they made a rule requiring teams to play in the NCAAs if chosen, so why would they ever allow the NIT to compete directly with the NCAAs. That sounds much more likely than ESPN having a non competition clause with CBS. I don't know much about TV contracts, but it doesn't make sense to me that two competing stations would sign a contract not to compete for any reason.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on Mar 24, 2005 17:28:04 GMT -5
Of course we would all like to see today's game, but let's face it, who other than fans of GU or South Carolina would watch that game over Washington - Louisville? Televising an NIT game opposite an NCAA sweet 16 game would be a ratings disaster for ESPN.
Rather than be upset with ESPN over this, why aren't we inquiring of the NIT why this game was scheduled for today rather than Saturday? Couldn't our game and the Maryland game have been televised before the Elite 8 games?
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Mar 24, 2005 18:00:40 GMT -5
This stuff happens every year. It just that no one cares to argue too much about it because everyone hopes their team is just in the NIT that one year.
As for Washington/Louisville, what you said makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that most of the country is getting UW-Mil/Illinois. Thank god for sports bars.
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JimmyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Hoya fan, est. 1986
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Post by JimmyHoya on Mar 24, 2005 18:05:55 GMT -5
Well hopefully the Illini are Editeded and it's a romp so they switch.
However, I wouldn't be surpised if it's a close game and they lost....
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Mar 24, 2005 18:12:05 GMT -5
That sounds much more likely than ESPN having a non competition clause with CBS. I don't know much about TV contracts, but it doesn't make sense to me that two competing stations would sign a contract not to compete for any reason. It happens a lot. Example: Direct TV has a deal with Major League Baseball to show games from local cable stations. But Fox has a deal with Major League Baseball to show a "Game of the Week" at 1PM on Saturdays. Because MLB wants to promote this game of the week, the deal they signed with DirectTV does not allow DirectTV to show any games on the Extra Innings Package on Saturdays before 5PM. The NCAA wants people watching the NCAA tournament game. ESPN wants to keep the NCAA happy because college basketball is their core product.
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