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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 8, 2013 21:59:58 GMT -5
You watching this game? LOLZ No... It's basketball and early in the season.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 8, 2013 22:07:13 GMT -5
So, it's clear the players have abandoned the offense. I just wish they had replaced it with something.
Apparently, they've given up on help defense as well.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2013 23:16:27 GMT -5
So, it's clear the players have abandoned the offense. I just wish they had replaced it with something. Apparently, they've given up on help defense as well. It's time to blow this offense up and start over!! The kids can't run it and even worse they don't seem to believe in it.. Changes have to be made JT3 and his staff shouldn't go home tonight until they figure out a new way of doing things
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 9, 2013 0:55:57 GMT -5
So, it's clear the players have abandoned the offense. I just wish they had replaced it with something. Apparently, they've given up on help defense as well. It's time to blow this offense up and start over, the kids can't run it and even worse they don't seem to believe in it.. Changes have to be made JT3 and his staff shouldn't go home tonight until they figure out a new way of doing things My option for the offense is to quit using it with this group. Nobody is a threat at high post as a facilitator or shooter, so just play a guard oriented offense. Oh wait--III doesn't believe in positions as being of value, so we have "players". My question is where are they? Outside of 3 people, nobody on this team is a threat to score. Those 3 aren't elite scorers either. So what does that say about the other players? If they are rendered useless and banished to the bench, why not find a way to get some use out of them and see what they can do? Athleticism and speed aren't a bad thing--yet this program views it as such. Never will understand that, but that's why the Princetown boys get the big bucks and so far, I'm laughing to keep from crying at this offensive mess.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 9, 2013 9:13:46 GMT -5
I totally agree, RDF.
I disagree that this team is too inexperienced and untalented to be competitive, and thus we are rebuilding. There are only a handful of teams in CBB that have top 100 recruits. We were just saying the other day how Wright has done a poor job at Nova getting the most out of what he has. I thought Dixon did a poor job at Pitt last year. Conversely, what top recruits does Buzz and Brey has at Marquette and ND? Do you think they should pass until they do a better job of recruiting.
I put this year on coach. I think his stubborness is infuriating. People can criticize, and that's fine. But, everyone knows the best 5-10 minutes of that game was Moses playing like a guy who wants to score baskets no matter how he does it. The second best part was Whittington actually trying to create his shot. It was truly embarrasing watching Markel walk the ball up the court to run a 20 second offense when were down 19 yesterday.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 9, 2013 9:52:36 GMT -5
It worked alright against Indiana and UCLA. Maybe those were anomalies but things can work. Zanna, Taylor & Adams negated any length advantage we had/have. Rebounding is just bad this year and that is just about positioning and effort. FWIW, I think Robinson & DSR are equally inept. I at least liked how he went to Bowen at the 12 min mark and played Ayegba. Gonna be a frustrating BE season.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 9, 2013 10:01:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I am sure I am overreacting, but I think more adjustments need to made, and I am not ready to say, "well, we are inexperienced and not talented enough," and that is the only issue.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 9, 2013 11:27:28 GMT -5
It worked alright against Indiana and UCLA. Maybe those were anomalies but things can work. Zanna, Taylor & Adams negated any length advantage we had/have. Rebounding is just bad this year and that is just about positioning and effort. FWIW, I think Robinson & DSR are equally inept. I at least liked how he went to Bowen at the 12 min mark and played Ayegba. Gonna be a frustrating BE season. Indiana and UCLA are bad defensive teams--you can get looks against them all day. Howland's reputation is obviously defense but look how he adjusted (then again his job status was on line) and they just try and outscore you and it's worked. Defense is great and will be needed to win a title-but you have to rebuild things when they fail but playing faster, emphasize scoring, and both of those programs have done that--and in Indiana's case their recruiting is improving as their program has won and done so in a style that attracts talent. Agree completely on Robinson/DSR which is why I stated that in their recruiting threads.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 9, 2013 11:35:03 GMT -5
One thing that will help the offense is the IAC, because I think it will help recruiting. Also, Indiana has played well defensively thus far this yr.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 9, 2013 12:00:13 GMT -5
One thing that will help the offense is the IAC, because I think it will help recruiting. Also, Indiana has played well defensively thus far this yr. No they haven't--they have played bad teams and their stats are favorable. If they play the better teams in Big 10 and hold them down scoring wise, I'll give them credit but their schedule is awful for a top 10 team. The teams who have some talent have all pushed them--GTown, Iowa, even UGA who has athleticism but isn't very good, and they blew out UNC by being better at the faster game--which they are this year then Heels. The Butler loss-Butler got any shot they wanted and look no further then last possession--the iso play run for a walk on to get Hulls in space and that's type of thing I'd love to see our staff do--look for matchups and attack--but other then Oladipo, this Indiana team is a poor defensive team.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 9, 2013 12:05:05 GMT -5
The Pomeroy stats are adjusted for competition. Their schedule sucks, but they have played well. We'll see as the competition gets better.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 9, 2013 12:05:49 GMT -5
Up until last night, I was OK with III trying to keep instilling his offense to these players. However, I have come to the conclusion, we do not have the personnel to run the offense. Until we have a legit 4 or 5, the offense cannot function. Nate/Hopkins/Moses are all no threat to score, they compose a 3-headed monster to our own team. Taking advantage of match-ups should be easier than it has been for this team since Whit is a mis-match every single night - he should get the green light to take his man every time a smurf is guarding him.
Now, there are two ways to go, III continues with the offense, the losses mount but perhaps it is an investment year. Or, he allows the players to play a more AAU type offense (as RDF wrote UCLA has done). III has the ultimate job security so the urgency on his side is not the same as the fans or UCLA's coach.
I do not think we will see big changes, but I would expect the personnel to change a bit as the year goes with Domingo getting some more opportunities. Personally, I would like to see less emphasis on defense and just let these guys loosen it up for a few games. More than anything they need some confidence, if that costs us a little on defense due to our personnel decisions to play more guards so be it.
I did like the press we used last night, I hoped it would lead to better transition opportunities but that is something to build on.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 9, 2013 12:40:20 GMT -5
Maybe we should move to a 3 on 3 league.
I wouldn't completely give up on UCLA's defense just yet. They beat both Cal and Stanford last week at the defensive end of the court, not the offensive end.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jan 9, 2013 12:55:45 GMT -5
A few weeks ago I made an offhand comment, I think even in response to SFHoya99, that it's possible this team is essentially last year's USF Bulls. I need to research it a little more, but on some superficial levels I'm still on board with it. USF if I recall last year set a rare standard by not having a single player average double figures. Their games were blindingly awful in a manner not unlike our recent tractor pulls. They went whole hog with the awful though--basically made every game ugly on the defensive end and all but ran a Burn offense. Embraced the fact that they were never gonna win pretty. The good news: USF finished 12-6 in the Big East, got to the quarters as a 6 seed and took ND to overtime, then made the 3rd round of the NCAAs via the play-in game and beating Temple before losing to Ohio. The bad news: USF played a really easy schedule...their wins were Nova twice, Providence twice, the 13-seed version of Pitt twice, RU, SHU, SJU, and Depaul...UNTIL........... The kinda relevant stuff for us: ..........The strategy eventually took hold: USF beat Cincinnati 46-45 at home and Louisville (!) on the road 58-51 in their 16th and 17th conference games before the post-season run. Generally, their BE losses tended to be like the 56-48 L to Cuse last year (or the 55-44 or w/e one last weekend)...except for that random 75-45 loss at Verizon to us where they looked like they completely fell apart and lost interest on D. So what am I saying? I take the position that SFHoya's initial things we know about the team are true, AND that the adjustments he suggests may only have a minor impact--like the "okay, it's SOMETHING I guess" Moses did last night. I throw out why not go completely reactionary and just double down on making things ugly with our defensive length, and just burn the clock on offense and limit possessions. Radical idea perhaps...basically win like USF (btw our game in a couple weekends will be unwatchable.) We're probably more talented than last year's USF team but our schedule is harder, so maybe it's a wash...I personally don't see at this moment how this team gets to 12-6 in a million years. BUT, perhaps I can allow that, like USF last year, if you play this way there's the possibility for a complete stinker like last night that turns out to be an anomaly...and we'll be back to playing with both teams in the low 50s in no time!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2013 13:06:52 GMT -5
Up until last night, I was OK with III trying to keep instilling his offense to these players. However, I have come to the conclusion, we do not have the personnel to run the offense. Until we have a legit 4 or 5, the offense cannot function. Nate/Hopkins/Moses are all no threat to score, they compose a 3-headed monster to our own team. Taking advantage of match-ups should be easier than it has been for this team since Whit is a mis-match every single night - he should get the green light to take his man every time a smurf is guarding him. Now, there are two ways to go, III continues with the offense, the losses mount but perhaps it is an investment year. Or, he allows the players to play a more AAU type offense (as RDF wrote UCLA has done). III has the ultimate job security so the urgency on his side is not the same as the fans or UCLA's coach. I do not think we will see big changes, but I would expect the personnel to change a bit as the year goes with Domingo getting some more opportunities. Personally, I would like to see less emphasis on defense and just let these guys loosen it up for a few games. More than anything they need some confidence, if that costs us a little on defense due to our personnel decisions to play more guards so be it. I did like the press we used last night, I hoped it would lead to better transition opportunities but that is something to build on. Missing a center of any competence is a huge issue. Lack of outside shooting causes massive spacing issues. I'm open to running a different offense, but I'm curious which one doesn't rely on outside shooting to create spacing, dribble drive penetration (Markel is okay, and that's it) and absolutely no post presence. I don't think there's an offense out there that optimizes that. Also, we have about 15 hours a week of practice allowed. So I think the only thing to be done right now for this team are tweaks that don't fundamentally change the half court offense: 1. Run, run, run and play up the pressure D. We won't be good at the fast break, but we aren't good at the half court anyway. And at least it will keep the players working hard. 2. Play the backups to support it. I think the team will actually be worse because of this -- the drop-off is substantial, but we need to play harder if we can't play better. 3. Crash the offensive boards. Yes, we will give up more transition buckets, the 3,4,5 should crash the boards. The 1 & 2 should get back. 4. Otto to PF, play one center. Need the spacing. Period. 5. Run the offense. I want to see the hand-off threes, the cuts to the basket, etc. The offense is designed to get people who can't create one on one easier buckets and we have a bunch of guys who can't create one on one. 6. Take threes. If you are open, gun. Even if we hit 12%.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2013 15:47:54 GMT -5
Personally, I thought the press last night was a net negative. I know using full pressure is a fan favorite around here, but there were several times where Pittsburgh broke our pressure, got a completely open look, and easily scored on us. I really think this is part of the reason why our defense was worse last night than against Marquette and other opponents.
The pressure did cause a few turnovers, but in some cases we didn't score, and these were easily outweighed by the easy baskets when they broke our pressure. I'm not saying that pressure is never appropriate, but it's not the answer to our offensive woes because it has not yielded fastbreaks or the easy baskets that would make it worthwhile.
If we can press without giving them easy looks, fine, but Pittsburgh adjusted and got several good looks against us.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 9, 2013 18:06:46 GMT -5
Up until last night, I was OK with III trying to keep instilling his offense to these players. However, I have come to the conclusion, we do not have the personnel to run the offense. Until we have a legit 4 or 5, the offense cannot function. Nate/Hopkins/Moses are all no threat to score, they compose a 3-headed monster to our own team. Taking advantage of match-ups should be easier than it has been for this team since Whit is a mis-match every single night - he should get the green light to take his man every time a smurf is guarding him. Now, there are two ways to go, III continues with the offense, the losses mount but perhaps it is an investment year. Or, he allows the players to play a more AAU type offense (as RDF wrote UCLA has done). III has the ultimate job security so the urgency on his side is not the same as the fans or UCLA's coach. I do not think we will see big changes, but I would expect the personnel to change a bit as the year goes with Domingo getting some more opportunities. Personally, I would like to see less emphasis on defense and just let these guys loosen it up for a few games. More than anything they need some confidence, if that costs us a little on defense due to our personnel decisions to play more guards so be it. I did like the press we used last night, I hoped it would lead to better transition opportunities but that is something to build on. Missing a center of any competence is a huge issue. Lack of outside shooting causes massive spacing issues. I'm open to running a different offense, but I'm curious which one doesn't rely on outside shooting to create spacing, dribble drive penetration (Markel is okay, and that's it) and absolutely no post presence. I don't think there's an offense out there that optimizes that. Also, we have about 15 hours a week of practice allowed. So I think the only thing to be done right now for this team are tweaks that don't fundamentally change the half court offense: After the terrible offensive showing on Saturday the team had a 35 second violation on their very first possession. In the 1st 8 minutes of last nights game Otto, Greg & Markel had a combined two shot attempts. It felt like a continuation of the Marquette game. How does the staff allow this to happen? The only tweak the staff needs to the offense is to stop running it all the time. JT3 needs to get them away from constantly running sets and start running PLAYS that are designed to get a specific player a shot. 1st teach them how to set & use screens cause they're horrible at it, then set up a play for Otto to run off some screens to get a look or start Greg on the baseline and have a pick(s) set for him to get free for a shot ect.... Running plays gives players specific assignments(Mikael set a screen and get in position for a rebound) which takes a lot of the reading of the defense/teammate away and may just allow them to play more freely cause right now this team looks like they're just running through the motions out there. Even in limited practice time, I don't see why the coaching staff can't do this and continue to teach the sets they run now. This may also give the opponent something to think about, lets face it every BE team has a good idea on how to defend G'town.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Jan 9, 2013 21:54:50 GMT -5
How can Hopkins continue to start? Never in my lifetime have I seen a player miss close-in shots by as much as he does. He is not even close. If he closed his eyes it couldn't be any worse.
A poster on another thread pointed out the obvious. As bad as we think our shooters are, their ability to beat defenders off the dribble is even worse. So when Dixon has his defenders play close and tight, we can't do anything besides pass it around and chuck it up. My suggestion - how about setting some high ball screens to free up some space? I can't remember this team ever doing that. Why not?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2013 10:32:55 GMT -5
Let's look at some statistics for the eight rotation players, if you include Moses:
O Rating:
Porter: 113.2 Starks: 105.3 Lubick: 105.3 DSR: 102.3 Whittington: 98.1 Trawick: 94.9 Moses: 90.7 Hopkins: 80.6
Offensive Rebounding Percentage:
Moses: 23.9 Porter: 6.9 Hopkins: 6.5 Lubick: 5.5 Whittington: 3.9 Trawick: 3.2 DSR: 2.2 Starks: 0.3
Turnover Percentage:
Moses: 34.7 Lubick: 28.6 Trawick: 24.1 Hopkins: 22.7 Whittington: 17.6 Starks: 16.8 Porter: 11.1 DSR: 6.9
For all of the criticism heaped on DSR by some people on this board, it becomes clear that he is not even close to being the worst player in our rotation. He is the fourth most efficient scorer (much more so than Trawick), and I do not think he's even shooting nearly as well as he can. If he improves his shooting to the level we expected coming out of high school, his efficiency could be tremendous. Moreover, he is the player least prone to turnovers on our roster (by a significant margin).
While I like Hopkins as a player and I think he is better than the statistics, I think the team could improve substantially right now simply by minimizing his playing time and never letting him shoot. While Moses' stats are not great either, they are better than Hopkins' and he clearly brings much more in offensive rebounding.
If we want to maximize our offense, it could potentially be worth it to try a lineup consisting of: Starks-DSR-Whittington-Porter-Big Man (Lubick or Moses). While this lineup would struggle defensively, it is a lineup that might give the team the best chance to score. Would the weaker defense outweigh any benefits? Perhaps, but at this point, I think we need to do everything we can to jump start the offense. We need better guard play, and this may be one way of getting there.
UPDATE: I should have also mentioned that DSR is also very good at getting to the free throw line. DSR is tied for third on the team with 33 FT attempts, and he has substantially less playing time than many of the other players. For all we hear about Trawick being a slasher, we really need him to drive more and draw more fouls.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 10, 2013 10:57:14 GMT -5
Hopkins hasn't passed well out of the high or low post. Nate is probably are best bet there. No one is going to be Henry, Greg, Roy, Jeff in this regard, but that seems to be where we are bogging down.
I think both Markel & Jabril can get open off the dribble, but I think with Hopkins we are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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