derhoya
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Post by derhoya on Sept 11, 2012 21:43:31 GMT -5
Allow me to dork out a bit. Working off this: T = A + (P - G); T=tuition, A= Need-based aid, P=Personal contribution (via whatever method), and G=merit-based aid/grant, I have a question on the 'A' or need-based aid.
If I recall correctly via posts from DFW and anecdotal evidence of friends & their need-based aid issues, G'town doesn't have that great of a need-based aid program or at least one running at its max potential. Meaning, if a person could receive 10K in approved aid based off their FAFSA (or whatever forms), Gtown is only able to afford 75% or 50% - basically less than the optimal amount. We lose some recruits here as budgets at other programs (i.e. Ivies, PL) can fully afford these 100% levels.
So that leads me to some questions: a) Is my general understanding of our need-based aid picture correct? b) Assuming a), what's the total and average/student gap in aid based dollars that isn't provided? c) If we fill this deficiency and it affects all students & student athletes (hint: fball players), this should reduce the personal contribution needs and possible merit-aid fund amount. Would anyone gander a guess at what this need merit-based aid needs we'd need now given the other numbers provided in other posts? I'm primarily looking at DFW or Russky on this one, so any info would be helpful.
If the school shores up one end while donors are able to increase, to some degree, our merit-based aid fund, we could continue to grab many star recruits. I'd bet money, kids will still take 5K/yr or so in debt/personal contributions for a Gtown degree vs the other PL who may offer a full ride.
Having gone through the recruiting process & the 'merit-based grant' process, I know a hitch could enter in the form of timing. Gtown would have to wait for FAFSA info to be finalized for recruits (typically later in the recruiting process) in order to know how much merit-based aid is needed while others can just say 'full ride'.
If answers are available on b), what's Gtown's plan to fill this gap? Anything in the current capital campaign on this? I'd assume this issue is very fluid and different with each yr, but this subject got me thinking. Good talk.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 11, 2012 23:21:20 GMT -5
a) Is my general understanding of our need-based aid picture correct? Generally speaking, yes, but the formula is really more like: T = A + P + G. What makes it really complicated is that A [which I later turn into X, equal to A (grants) + L (loans)], P, and G are all interrelated and mutually dependent variables whose relationship is a set of formulas that is kept confidential. A couple of points: 1. For most students, including football players, G = 0 because Georgetown doesn't offer merit aid except in some sports. There are some need-based grants that may have a merit component to them (the so-called "Incentive Scholarships" like the Bellarmine and Ignatian Scholarships), but ultimately it's all dependent on there being need. The minor exception being if you are eligible for the Bellarmine or Ignatian and have no financial need, they get you a flat $1k once as an honorary award. For football players currently, the substitute for G is the scholarship equivalency money that can buy out the loan part (L) of your need-based package (X). We can call the equivalency money E. So for a football player now, T = A + (L-E) + P, where X = A + (L-E). 2. "Max potential" is a completely artificial and contingent figure. If a school like Harvard wanted to, it could make itself completely free to every undergrad. Georgetown uses the FAFSA, but the numbers that get spit out for the family and personal contributions, loans, and grants are all based on Georgetown equations. The Ivies, being better off financially, are able to use this to their advantage. You said: "I'd bet money, kids will still take 5K/yr or so in debt/personal contributions for a Gtown degree vs the other PL who may offer a full ride." That's what happens with the Ivies - the financial aid available there to all students is so good that most players are either receiving full aid anyway, not paying very much out of pocket, or else so wealthy it doesn't make much of a difference. b) Assuming a), what's the total and average/student gap in aid based dollars that isn't provided? Well, since max potential is set by the university, there's no absolute answer to this. The relative answer, based on current conditions, would be "however much you have to take out in federal loans," since the amount of loans is equal to T - (A + P). (Except it's not just tuition but total estimated cost of attendance). So, basically, Georgetown is saying that per our calculations you need $X in aid, but we can only give you $A in grants, so you can take out $L in loans. X = A + L But, to reiterate, the number X is arrived at through a formula created by Georgetown, specific to Georgetown's resources. Greater resources would likely mean that X would increase for many/most students. According to Fleming, the average total student loan debt for Georgetown’s Class of 2011 was about $12,000, and the university’s Office of Student Financial Services limits the total cost of student loans to $17,500 for all four years when creating a financial aid packet. Sourcec) If we fill this deficiency and it affects all students & student athletes (hint: fball players), this should reduce the personal contribution needs and possible merit-aid fund amount. Would anyone gander a guess at what this need merit-based aid needs we'd need now given the other numbers provided in other posts? I'm primarily looking at DFW or Russky on this one, so any info would be helpful. I mean, if you filled the deficiency completely, then you would be able to reduce the personal contribution and merit-aid fund amount to zero for many/most students, including football players. That's how the richest Ivies operate, and it's why their league works with zero official merit aid. Barring that, though, it is a sliding scale. Obviously, from a football perspective, you get the most bang for your buck by simply increasing the amount of money available to the football program to use toward paying athletes' cost of attendance. To increase A (which has the effect of either lowering L or increasing X, usually the latter first) for the entire student body requires a whole lot more money than simply giving the football team money to boost up G. Even increasing G up to the max (i.e. full athletic scholarships up to the NCAA limit), so that A and P are zero for those players, would still be much less, because we're talking about 60 people in one case and ~6,500 on the other. Georgetown's overall financial aid budget is kept confidential, as is the overall budget, so I can't really say how much money it would take to reach the point where A grew so big for most students that L and P were minor and G unnecessary. It's a lot though. You can compare endowments to get some idea, but GU's finances are structured very differently from the Ivies. If the school shores up one end while donors are able to increase, to some degree, our merit-based aid fund, we could continue to grab many star recruits. I'd bet money, kids will still take 5K/yr or so in debt/personal contributions for a Gtown degree vs the other PL who may offer a full ride. Which leads to the following question: how much money would one need to pump into the general GU financial aid budget in order to bring A up so high that G would be able to cover L and P in a scenario in which "donors are able to increase, to some degree, our merit-based aid fund." In other words, assuming we can raise the current equivalency level E up to the highest feasible G, how high would A have to be - and how much money would it take to get there - such that G canceled out L and P for football players. The answer is... I have no idea. Again, it's a lot. Having gone through the recruiting process & the 'merit-based grant' process, I know a hitch could enter in the form of timing. Gtown would have to wait for FAFSA info to be finalized for recruits (typically later in the recruiting process) in order to know how much merit-based aid is needed while others can just say 'full ride'. This shouldn't be an issue. Schools are now legally obligated to post Net Price Calculators (GU's is at finaid.georgetown.edu/net-price-calc ) that would allow the family of a football player to see how high A would be for them. Assuming all the great hypotheticals come to pass, A would be very high, perhaps even covering the full cost of attendance and obviating the need for any G. If not, coaches could provide an idea of average G given out to players, and prospects would know GU is good for it. Again, this is basically the model the Ivies operate on now. If answers are available on b), what's Gtown's plan to fill this gap? Anything in the current capital campaign on this? I'd assume this issue is very fluid and different with each yr, but this subject got me thinking. Good talk. campaign.georgetown.edu/attracting.html
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derhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by derhoya on Sept 12, 2012 9:15:43 GMT -5
Russky, thanks for the response. I mistakenly was thinking that FAFSA provided a level playing field on need-based aid and some type of limit of on need-based packages for all schools and didn't think of the follow-on university specific equations adapting this info. So correct me if I'm wrong, the FAFSA could say you deserve 10K, Gtown awards 5K with the remainder being loans/cash/2nd mortage/whatever, and an Ivy could come in and say I'll raise you that 10K to 15K? The Ivy would be meeting the FAFSA number and adding in 5K of 'merit/scholarship/some-sorta-grant' for kicks. Time for another cup of coffee.
I know its proprietary but I'd love to see the weighting/parameters/dart board used for these financial equations.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 12, 2012 10:00:17 GMT -5
Harvard's policy (largely adopted by Yale and Princeton, with emphases added): "Since 2006, students from families with incomes less than $60,000 who are accepted to Harvard under our regular admissions policies have had no expected parent contribution for their education. Beginning in the fall of 2012, this "zero contribution threshold" will be increased to $65,000. Financial aid is available to all students based on assessed need. Beginning with the class of 2016, families with incomes up to $150,000 will have an average expected parent contribution of 10 percent or less of their income and, as we continue to take individual circumstances into consideration in our assessment of financial need, many families in even higher income brackets also receive substantive financial aid." Key word: assessment. If they "assess" you need more grant money, you get it. Georgetown uses "demonstrated" need per the FAFSA. Summary? Playing football at H-Y-P should cost no more than $15,000 a year, and most will pay even less. www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/financial_aid/hfai/index.html
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