The Hoya comes out in support of scholarships

[RusskyHoya]

*sigh*

GU Punts on Merit Aid

By The Editorial Board
Published: Friday, September 7, 2012

The Patriot League — the athletic conference in which Georgetown plays football — announced earlier this year that its members may give merit-based athletic scholarships to football players. The university has, for now, declined to make this change.

We fail to understand why.

The university offers only need-based aid to football players, although other Georgetown sports programs have long used merit scholarships as an asset in recruiting. Director of Athletics Lee Reed recently told The Hoya that although most schools in the Patriot League have taken advantage of the policy change, “That’s not what we’ve been or what we want to do.”

It remains unclear why, when other Georgetown sports teams already offer merit aid, football should be any different. We maintain that merit-based aid will provide a net benefit for the football program and for all of Georgetown athletics.

The football program is on an encouraging, competitive trajectory, and merit-based scholarships would compound this continued growth. The team, which won an unexpected eight games last year and fell just short of the Patriot League championship, risks falling behind its competition if it doesn’t remove this self-imposed handicap. Reed noted in his interview that Georgetown is “running out of schools” with the same aid policy, leading the team to schedule more out-of-conference games this season.

Unfortunately, it’s hard not to interpret the decision to forgo merit-based scholarships as anything but complacency with mediocrity on the field. The football team should be allowed to pursue the levels of success reached by other programs on campus, and its players — who commit a huge amount of time on the university’s behalf — should be given the same financial support that their competitors and Georgetown athletic peers receive.

Even if Georgetown never becomes a football powerhouse, a consistently successful program led by players on athletic scholarships would offer more to the university than just reason to cheer. Alumni relations, university visibility and revenue are just a few off-field areas that would benefit from putting more points on the scoreboard.

We believe that the potential benefits of merit-based aid to the football program, both in terms of competitive and financial success, fit the mission of Georgetown athletics.

[thebin]

"leading the team to schedule more out-of-conference games this season"....how does that work exactly? It isn't as if we stopped playing the PL teams who are going schollie. Don't we play the same number of conf and non-conf games every year give or take?

[hoyahopeful]

We should absolutely provide scholarships to football players. We should also have a brand new 15,000 seat stadium. We should have state of the art training facilities. And we should schedule games on the west coast at least once each season.

I have no idea why Georgetown hasn't done all of these things.

[thebin]

Yeah it was a bit tough to take that op ed too seriously without a single mention of where the money would come from or even recognition that it would mean a massive increase in budget.

[Jack]

Pathetic. Did the entire Hoya editorial board graduate and get replaced by freshmen with no experience or institutional knowledge? That is the only excuse for such a weakly argued editorial.

[Problem of Dog]

When was the last time The Hoya engendered any sort of change on campus?

[98hoya]

I had an idea, which I'm sure is dumb and there is a reason why it's totally unworkable, but...I wonder if the school would commit to athletic scholarships funded by donations through the Gridiron Club. Here's the idea:

(using round numbers here for discussion's sake, no idea how accurate they are): Say the real cost of a scholarship is $25k a year and that for $500k, at a normal rate of return, Gtown could offer that scholarship annually from the interest. So, if the Gridiron Club raises $500k, it's agreed that, in perpetuity, we have 1 athletic scholarship. Over time, we build and build and build. Maybe we have a matching program where the school funds one for every one donations raise. Or maybe we just slowly build up scholarships through outside donations.

I'm guessing there's a reason we can't or won't or shouldn't do this, but I just figured I'd throw it out there. I'd be much more generous with Gridiron giving if I knew that every penny was going toward a group donation to get a permanent scholarship slot for the team. It'd be a nice way to support access to education for a student, as well as a nice way to help the program.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

How would the real cost of the scholarship be 25k when that's about half of tuition?

[RusskyHoya]

Sept 7, 2012 15:09:40 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

Say the real cost of a scholarship is $25k a year

On what planet is that the real cost of a scholarship? Fulltime undergrad tuition (which rises yearly) now sits at $42,360. Average room & board is $13,632. Tack on almost a thousand dollars worth of fees on top of that, plus if you're providing books and meals...

Sept 7, 2012 15:09:40 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

IOver time, we build and build and build. Maybe we have a matching program where the school funds one for every one donations raise. Or maybe we just slowly build up scholarships through outside donations.

I'm guessing there's a reason we can't or won't or shouldn't do this, but I just figured I'd throw it out there. I'd be much more generous with Gridiron giving if I knew that every penny was going toward a group donation to get a permanent scholarship slot for the team. It'd be a nice way to support access to education for a student, as well as a nice way to help the program.

Problem 1: For every new football scholarship, you would have to either add a women's scholarship or eliminate a men's scholarship in another sport. So the cost is effectively doubled.

Problem 2: Compare the cost of a fully-endowed scholarship to the sport's total budget - or even the total athletics budget - and you'll see that it would take a very long time indeed to get up to the total number. We're not reaching scholarship maxes in a lot of sports and have very few endowed scholarships period.

Problem 3: Imagine the effect on team chemistry if there were only 1 or 2 or 5 scholarship players and everyone knew who they were. You think prima donna-ism is bad in the NFL? Imagine if you had a college team where a few players had a "coach thinks I'm better than you" label on them.

[RusskyHoya]

Sept 7, 2012 16:05:44 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

Sept 7, 2012 15:57:33 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

How would the real cost of the scholarship be 25k when that's about half of tuition?

A fair question, I want to make clear that I don't know what the real cost is.

My assumption is that the published annual tuition cost of $50k, or whatever crazy amount it is, is not the actual cost to GU to educate a student. For example, many students attend with huge grants and, presumably, when all 6,000 of our undergrads have paid tuition, the per student cost for GU to keep the lights on is significantly less than published tuition rate x # of students. I'd propose that THAT lesser cost is the real cost of a scholarship, not the published tuition.

I'll defer to the MBA/higher ed types to correct me, but again, I'm just trying to float an idea, not intending to be precise on the figures that would be needed to make it go - I don't know enough to know that info.

That's not how it works, though. When my program wants to fund one of our students with a 50% tuition grant, we have to pay 50% of the published tuition to the University. It literally goes from our cost center to the "tuition receivable" cost center. A scholarship would not work any differently. Departments don't get a tuition discount.

[98hoya]

On what planet is that the real cost of a scholarship? Fulltime undergrad tuition (which rises yearly) now sits at $42,360. Average room & board is $13,632. Tack on almost a thousand dollars worth of fees on top of that, plus if you're providing books and meals...

Not to be a jerk Russky, but...don't be a jerk with your "on what planet" stuff. I prefaced my post by admitting to knowing nothing on the topic and then inviting correction more than once.

Also, if the actual cost to educate a student for one year is literally $56k and that figure doesn't build in some fat to support those students that receive grants, then I'd be shocked. Is that what you're saying?

[DFW HOYA]

This is a complicated subject on a lot of levels, but maybe this will help:

1. For schools like William & Mary, Villanova, Richmond, a football scholarship is just that--a full ride with the admissions decision coming from the offer of the coach as long as the recruit meets minimum requirments, much like GU basketball.

2. For the Patriot League (pre-2012), six of the seven schools employed an need-based equivalency model where the school would buy out all the loan and work study offered to the applicant, leaving essentially 100% grant. Therefore, if a recruit at Bucknell had $20,000 need, he would get $5,000 from the University and $15,000 as an athletic grant, and the parents pay the rest. For many years, Georgetown lacked the budget for wholesale grant buyouts and would be able to buy out the work-study component but the player might still have a loan depending on the financial aid office.

3. Post 2012, the six PL schools move to a full-ride model--they have moved the financial aid/grant money that was formerly coming from the financial aid office and awarding that directly from atheltics. They will offer 100% grant. Georgetown has not adopted this model for a variety of reasons, if only that the cost to support 60 scholarships (the stated goal of the six other PL programs) is a minimum of $3 million on to the athletic department budget annually, not counting potential Title IX issues. Adding 60 men's (and women's) full scholarships would amount a 20% increase in the overall athletics budget without the resources to pay for it,---and remember, PL schools don't have to support scholarships in track, lacrosse, soccer, baseball, etc. as Georgetown does.

3. Georgetown's present funding model (and program budget) approximates that of the Ivy League schools. Lee Reed's quote about playing more Ivy schools is important because, down the road, when Lehigh and Holy Cross start looking more like Richmond and Old Dominion, there's a competitive imbalance. In theory, Georgetown should be more competitive alongside Ivy teams going forward. But what about competition in the PL? How many scholarships make that competition even tenable, and where does the money come from to support it? If Georgetown can recruit alongside Princeton and Harvard without coughing up an extra $3 million more to do it, does it make sense to stay this route and become the Vanderbilt of the PL instead? Not a clear nor easy answer.

4. A fully endowed atheltic scholarship is $1 million, which is why there are so few.

[RusskyHoya]

Sept 7, 2012 18:32:33 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

On what planet is that the real cost of a scholarship? Fulltime undergrad tuition (which rises yearly) now sits at $42,360. Average room & board is $13,632. Tack on almost a thousand dollars worth of fees on top of that, plus if you're providing books and meals...

Not to be a jerk Russky, but...don't be a jerk with your "on what planet" stuff. I prefaced my post by admitting to knowing nothing on the topic and then inviting correction more than once.

I started writing my response before HSB made his post and you responded to it. I left it, then came back and posted, so I didn't see your exchange. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just frustrated with the utter lack of research demonstrated by The Hoya's ed board and I saw your $25k quote as a similar failure to check some basic facts. I now understand why you were low-balling the figure, and it's an understandable enough thing.

Sept 7, 2012 18:40:24 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

Re: Problem #1: yup, good point - that'd make it more expensive...but I don't think it should end the conversation if that's the only thing.

Re: Problem #2: I don't follow here - I'm not sure what you mean by reaching the total number. Do you mean to get the maximum number of possible scholarships, or to reach the amount to pay for a single one? For the endowed scholarships in other sports, are they endowed by an individual, or by an organization (like the Gridiron Club's equivalent for other sports)?

I meant reaching the maximum number of possible scholarships, but even just reaching the number of scholarships that would enable us to be sustainable competitive would be similarly problematic.

For the endowed scholarships in other sports... there are almost none. The ones I know of are endowed by individuals, but there may be some I don't. DFW would probably know better than I.

Sept 7, 2012 18:40:24 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

Re: Problem #3: I think several sports have a few scholarships and a lot of non-scholarship players. Not sure about that, but isn't that already the case on our baseball, soccer and lax teams? In any event, I don't think that's a big issue. There are entire leagues that allow enough scholarships that only a fraction of the team can get one (I believe the league Wagner plays in fits in this category).

To the best of my knowledge, in all of these low scholarship cap sports, the granting of full scholarships is fairly rare. Instead, the scholarships are broken up. In baseball, for instance, the cap is 11.7 scholarships spread out over a maximum of 27 counters, with no one receiving less than .25 of a scholarship. So most of the players - or certainly most of the players getting PT - are getting some aid. That's a very different dynamic from having just a couple of guys on a numerically large team like football getting scholarships.

Wagner, for instance, plays in the NEC, which has a cap of 36 scholarship equivalencies. That would let you almost cover a 2-deep roster with full rides, but in reality a lot of those are divided up to cover more players.

[reformation]

Sept 7, 2012 14:23:08 GMT -5 Jack said:

Pathetic. Did the entire Hoya editorial board graduate and get replaced by freshmen with no experience or institutional knowledge? That is the only excuse for such a weakly argued editorial.

Agree its obvious that the Hoya staff have no concept of weighing the costs/benefits of an issue. Maybe we should give out scholarships for The Hoya so that we can get some capable journalists.
--most college newspapers are poorly written, we expect better from gtwn--but don't get it that often.

[thebin]

Sept 7, 2012 15:14:09 GMT -5 @98hoya said:

Sept 7, 2012 11:38:12 GMT -5 thebin said:

"leading the team to schedule more out-of-conference games this season"....how does that work exactly? It isn't as if we stopped playing the PL teams who are going schollie. Don't we play the same number of conf and non-conf games every year give or take?

I think so, bin. I think the more realistic risk is potentially in a few years when the opponents keep getting better and better by having scholarship players and we are less competitive. At that point, I suppose we end up looking for non-conf/non-scholarship opponents so we can eek a couple of wins out of a season. The problem is that there hardly any left at the 1-AA level.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense. We are playing as many non scholarship teams as we always have- no more, no less with the exception of that short lived Richmond experiment. I really think the article is implying we would schedule other teams instead of pl teams as they go schollie.

[CTHoya08]

How are the other PL teams addressing the Title IX implications of adding football scholarships?

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 10, 2012 8:21:21 GMT -5 CTHoya08 said:

How are the other PL teams addressing the Title IX implications of adding football scholarships?

Every school is different but the operative issue is that these PL schools are not "adding" anything but reformatting it.

Example: Colgate. Technically a "non-scholarship" school, Colgate's athletic department awards $9.6 million in need based aid annually across 546 athletes (roughly $17,000 per athlete, though every case is different, some get more, others none at all). But since these awards are still athletically related, converting a need award to a merit award doesn't upset the Title IX apple cart if athletic funds are still being awarded proportionately. That $9.6 M accounts for 48% of the Colgate athletic budget.

Georgetown awards $7.1 million athletically across a total pool of 800 athletes (roughly $8,800 per FTE). That average drops when you factor in fully funded sports like basketball, track, etc. It doesn't mean the average athletic gift is $4,400, only that the difference in non-rev sports is made up through general financial aid in addition to funds at Athletics. Committing to full scholarships in football would necessitate funds being taken out of general financial aid and committed solely to atheltics, which then introduces Title IX issues. In a roundabout way, the other PL schools had scholarship money baked into into their budgets already.

Georgetown's $7.1 million in scholarship aid (per EADA reports) is roughly 22% of its budget vs. 48% of the Colgate budget. Then again, Colgate isn't fielding a $9.5M basketball program, either.

This doesn't mean scholarships absolutely can't be done, only that there are more challenges to do so at Georgetown than those at otehr schools.

[CAHoya07]

I didn't think the Hoya op-ed was that terrible. I happen to agree with almost everything said, or at least the spirit behind it.

The problem, I think, is having people (and in particular, students) understand why schools like Lehigh, Lafayette, Villanova, William & Mary, and Richard can do this, but Georgetown apparently can't, or won't. And with this thread serving as evidence, that's not a particularly easy thing to do.

I did find it strange that I believe it was DeGoia in a recent article who said that scholarship football wasn't a part of Georgetown's "mission," or something to that effect. Seemed like a cop-out answer, because how do you reconcile that with basketball and all the other sports at Georgetown where scholarships are, in fact, a part of Georgetown's "mission"?

I guess I can understand the students' lack of understanding of the issues here, because the answers that they've been given (ex. DeGoia's) don't properly explain it.

[Problem of Dog]

The fact is, it's just never going to happen at Georgetown. I've been saying for years that the school needs to fish or cut bait with the football program, but even in my wildest dreams, the "fishing" concept never included funding 65 scholarships.

[Problem of Dog]

As much as every Hoya would love the ivy affiliation, if you look at it from an unbiased perspective 1) the benefit to our brand wouldn't even be comparable to the benefit to Ivy's brand (if it were even a benefit) and 2) we're not really a natural fit in the Ivy League either. It would be more like a Cincinnati to the Big East type move.